I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Anonymous

I asked the question regarding extremism because I am what many refer to as an extermist or at the least I am a visual representation of what is considered by many as extreme. I wear a black Chador, face veil, gloves and I strive to implement Islamic principals in every area of my life from finances to romance. My husband does not beat me, I am not oppressed nor subjugated, I do not believe in killing infidels or honor killings, I do not walk three feet behind my husband, when I earn money it belongs to me, I am not obligated to give it to my husband nor use it for my household unless I choose to and I am respected and honored in my community and my home.

I am a revert to Islam and when I was considering becoming Muslim the Imam in our community told me that it was an obligation for me to learn my rights as a Muslim women which is what I did and continue to do. It is disheartening to read erroneous comments regarding the treatment of Muslim women when I have lived in both worlds and know all too well the struggles and abuses of women and girls in general.

As I posted on another thread, I want to make it clear that Muslim women are not asking to be rescued from our faith and we are not pleading to be liberated from our Islamic clothing which we wear proudly. I find the constant calls to free the Muslim women disingenuous and consider it a pretext to invade Muslim lands and commit theft and murder under the guise of liberation. I do not feel slighted in the least that I am not allowed to show my hair and figure which I regard as precious and share only with my husband. Why is that a problem for some of you?

I no longer denounce terrorism as my voice will not be heard and has been drowned out by those who say I am lying. I also do not denounce terrorism because Islam is not guilty of any crime and those who make such claims do so only with the objective of branding Islam as a criminal and Muslims guilty of crimes by association.

Notself posted a perfect example of the how the truth about Islam is ignored and lies are accepted. In part the article read: "The signatories are guardians of the conservative Wahhabi school of Islam"

Wahabi or as we prefer to be called Salafi, have spoken out and denounced terrorism yet when anyone wants to point the finger at the Islamic boogeyman, they always refer to Wahabis which is proof that we are intentionally ignored.

Here is a link to a book which highlights some of the misconceptions about Muslim women as well as providing the Judeo Christian views on women and women's issues.  http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_comparison_full.htm

 Another  misconception is Shariah Law. There are constant calls against Shariah Law but does anyone really know what it is and how it impacts the lives of Muslims? Can anyone give an example of Shariah Law? 

At any rate, I hope we continue the dialogue in a respectful manner. As much as I am disheartened by the erroneous information posted here I am delighted and encouraged to read the well thought out and balanced posts. There are many other topics such as Israel, Fort Hood, 911 which need to be addressed but will have to wait for another post.

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him said: "The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best character and the best of you are those who are best to their wives" (Tirmidthi).

Anonymous

Shirley Hughes wrote: Eff, I am not implying that all people of the Islam faith are extremists. I would like to ask you, would or do you recognize that there are Muslim extremists whose goal is to take over the world? Do you not see it in other countries?

The "extremists" are terrorists. Here's a video I would challenge all to watch. I would like your interpretation to this video. It's not long.

I watched the video and counted 30 acts of terror which to me does not constitute a movement for world domination.There are crazy people in every religion and a bloodthirsty killer can find any reason to justify killing.  

Ahmedinijad is a Shia and is not a spokesman for me as a Sunni Muslim and neither is Osama Bin Laden. I wholeheartedly believe in the Muslims right to protect themselves againts aggression, occupation and invasion and just as many of you are willing to send your husbands and sons to invade Muslim lands and kill Muslims, I am equally willing to send mine to protect them.

Do I believe in waging war against Americans on American soil? No, I do not because as a citizen of this country I am obligated to obey the laws provided they do prohibit me from practicing my religion. An example of that would be an atttempt to force me to remove my covering or prohibit me from praying. My response would not be to attack innocent citizens which seems to be what the scary video is promoting. If it gets to that point here I am obligated to migrate to a area where I can practice my religion freely if I am able.  

As you probably are aware there is an uprising throughout the Muslim world to remove ruthless, oppressive,  dictators who have brutalized and impoverished their citizens for decades. Does it make sense that the Muslims would bypassed terrorizing those monsters and instead focus on the West?

My advice to you is to stay away from the dramatic videos and hater websites. The truth is powerful and doesn't need side efffects to illuminate it. If you are interested in the truth about Muslims and Islam that video is not an honest representation

Hope I answered your questions and feel free to ask again.

Eff~

The Ruling on Attacking the enemy by blowing oneself up in a car
Question:

What is the ruling regarding acts of jihaad by means of suicide, such as attaching explosives to a car and storming the enemy, whereby he knows without a doubt that he shall die as a result of this action?
Answer:

Indeed, my opinion is that he is regarded as one who has killed himself (committed suicide), and as a result he shall be punished in Hell, for that which is authenticated on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam).
"Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever" [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)].

However, one who is ignorant and does not know, and assumes his action was good and pleasing to Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala), then we hope Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) forgives him for that which he did out of (ignorant) ijtihaad, even though I do not find any excuse for him in the present day. This is because this type of suicide is well known and widespread amongst the people, so it is upon the person to ask the people of knowledge (scholars) regarding it, until the right guidance for him is differentiated from the error.

And from that which is surprising, is that these people kill themselves despite Allaah having fordbidden this, as He (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) says:

{And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you}, [Soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 29].

And many amongst them do not desire anything except revenge of the enemy, by whatever means, be it halaal or haraam. So they only want to satisfy their thirst for revenge.

We ask Allaah to bless us with foresight in His Deen and action(s) which please Him, indeed He is all Powerful over all things.

Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen
Kayfa Nu'aalij Waaqi'unaa al-Aleem - Page 119

1Athena1

Efflorescing:

Where we share common values (and there may be many other areas, but here is one) is your belief in your right to choose and follow your system of beliefs. As long as the United States protects the right of people like me, an atheist, and people like you, an observant Muslim, it is truly a great nation. I think for the most part that it still is great, imperfect as some of its actions may be. A place that can accommodate so many belief systems (not without tension, of course) is a place I am glad to call home.

Best to you.

rosemary-b

Effloressing

I admire your devotion to God, your intellect and your tenacity. I am sure there are many Muslims who have just given up on Americans ever understanding them. I know that we need to respect each other as worshipppers of the same God and remember that the extremist in any faith do not represent real believers in that faith (that's why they are called extremists).

Edited to add: How you dress is up to you. That should not determine what people think. I know, though, sadly, it can.

rosemary-b

yramAL quoted

" And in January, some conservatives even suggested that Obama was endangering people, blaming an increase in pedestrian deaths on the first lady's campaign by saying that Americans were putting themselves at risk by walking more."

I hope they weren't serious. That was my first good laugh f the day.

Bren-2007

Eff .. thank you for posting.

Mary and Rosemary .. my first laugh of the day!

Hope everyone has a good day.

Bren

AnneW

Eff, thanks for your eloquent attempts to help educate us. Most of us only know about Islam from what we read--and as you know, the sources vary widely with their perspective and intent. I think world religions are fascinating, and seek out objective sources wherever I can. Not being a Christian, and not feeling that I have to defend my upbringing or beliefs, perhaps that's an easier task for me. I don't know. (I don't want to offend intelligent women of any faith who read about other faiths objectively!!)

I lived in Turkey for a couple of years in the mid-80s. I saw Christianity and Islam side by side. I saw poverty and riches side by side. It was a wonderful experience that I will always treasure, and the Turkish people have a special place in my heart.

I work with many Middle Eastern students. Our college has the utmost respect for their dress and beliefs. They are wonderful young people, just like anywhere else.

I do admit that I get some of my education and information about Islam and extremism from some of the non-fiction that I read. Memoirs, which I love from any country, need to be taken for what they are--one person's experience in the world. A Muslim woman writing about her horrors experienced at the hands of a husband 30 years older than herself is no more indicative of the Muslim world as a whole than an American woman writing about her dysfunctional, abusive family growing up. But a well-written book does give me glimpses into some aspects of a society.

Eff, I'd love to get a not-so-heavy reading list from you, fiction and nonfiction, that portrays Islam as you know it. I truly want to learn and understand more. Reading helps me with that.

Thanks again for your efforts to educate. I'd love to sit with you and share a cup of tea.

Enjoyful

Good morning to all!

Eff - Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with us!  It's always fascinating to learn the truth rather than the biased and hateful rantings of the lunatics among us.  Perhaps some people are quick to believe the lies because it makes them more secure in their own faith.  'Mine must be right - look at how bad the others are!  Sad, really. 

E

Anonymous

Efflorescing wrote:

I watched the video and counted 30 acts of terror which to me does not constitute a movement for world domination.There are crazy people in every religion and a bloodthirsty killer can find any reason to justify killing.  

My advice to you is to stay away from the dramatic videos and hater websites. The truth is powerful and doesn't need side efffects to illuminate it. If you are interested in the truth about Muslims and Islam that video is not an honest representation

No big deal, only 30 (actually 28 were listed) acts of terror????  Why should anyone be concerned about that?  Just because 17 of them were directed at Americans both at home and abroad? 

Don't look at the dramatic videos?  That video is not an honest representation?  Are you saying that those pictures of downed airliners and bombed buildings aren't real?  Are you saying that the pictures of the injured and killed aren't real?  Are you saying that those protesters were not carrying those signs calling for killings?

That video is certainly not a complete representationof Islam, but the failure to acknowledge that it is a part of Islam is as dangerous as a drug addict failing to acknowledge their addictive behaviors just because they are occasionally able to go 24 hours or so without using drugs. 

We cannot afford to be ostriches who stick their heads in the sand to avoid unpleasant truths.  Both the loving devout family life and the violence are part of Islam today.  To focus exclusively on either is to do ourselves a great dis-service.

konakat

Changed my mind -- might be too difficult for small minds to understand.

Elizabeth's Mantra: When in doubt, eat cake. When you haven't a clue, add ice cream. Elizabeth's Mets: Liver, bones, brain (yuck), and lungs (more yuck).
Diagnosis: 5/2007, ILC, 3cm, Stage IV, Grade 3, 13/19 nodes, mets, ER+/PR+, HER2+

ananda8

Efflorescing,

It is fine with me if you choose to veil your head and face, but it is not fine with me that under the Taliban women did not have a choice and when we pull out of Afghanistan they will once again not have a choice in covering their faces; they will not be allowed to go to school and they will risk being beaten for the slightest infractions.  This is the truth of Muslim life for Afghan women and girls.  The same holds true for the women of Saudi Arabia.

I view Islam as having one foot in the modern world and one foot in the Middle Ages.  This same situation, to a lesser extent, exists in Christianity and Orthodox Judaism with some small fundamentalist groups versus a larger modern groups.  The fundamentalist members of all three desert religions (Jews, Christians, Muslims) suppress the human rights of women and girls.

I am sure you are aware that there is controversy among Muslims regarding whether the veil was required by the Qu'ran.  http://muslimmatters.org/2010/11/12/to-veil-or-not-to-veil-hijab-and-muslim-womens-rights-in-afghanistan-and-france/

I just want to repeat that I have no problem with your expression of your religion.  I don't see your religion as any better or any worse than any of the other religions which originate in the Middle East or in other parts of the world that are used as an excuse to subordinate women to men. 

otter

[Deleted my post.  Sorry -- It looked like I was being silly when the subject was serious.  I was just concerned about the direction things seemed to be headed.]

konakat

Changed mind again.  Geesh...

What I posted was that it is wrong to take the atrocities of a few to represent part of the whole.  To explain what I mean, it's like saying killing innocent children in Afganistan and Iraq is part of US foreign policy and what Americans do in general (you know, that convenient concept of "collateral damage").  Or verbally abusing the memories of soldiers at their funerals is part of Christian doctrine.  Because these things happen, should I be afraid or scornful of the US or Christians?  No, because I know the majority are good people.  Like Efflorescing is.  Fear based on prejudicial ideas is what's truely scary.

1Athena1

Rosemary/Mary - ROFLMAO!!! Thank you for a great laugh.

Bren-2007

I agree with you Cindy ... and Kona too.  Thanks for expressing my feelings as well.

Bren

River_Rat

I got side-tracked by something last night that might be appropriate for this thread.  A man with serious mental problems (I was told he is schizophrenic) lives just up the street from me.  He was going from house to house last night with the information that he is "God" and that we are all his children and we will be going to live with him on some acreage he has.

So far, weird but not that scary...ah but then he went to talk to the single lady next door and told her that they are married but she just doesn't know it and that she and her son will be going to live with him - that all that he has is hers....and he gave her his car.  He left it sitting in her driveway with the keys in the ignition.

Neighbors drove him home after he climbed into the back of their pickup truck.  They were worried that he might fall out.  He told them that it wouldn't matter.  It wouldn't hurt him, he is "God." 

The police came and moved the car and went to talk to the man. 

The lady next door is understandably freaked out.  We all are keeping our doors locked and watching out for one another.  I also found out today that he went in to one of the local churches on Sunday and took over the service.  The police had to take him away.

I'm hoping this doesn't end badly.  Sometimes it is hard to draw a line between extremism and mentally ill.  The intersection of both is very scary. 

BarbaraA

River_rat - I can relate as my youngest brother is schizophrenic. When he is off his meds, there is no telling what the voices will tell him to do. For close to 10 years, he looked like a Howard Hughes caricature, long hair, long wispy beard, two inch long curved fingernails. He would wander around the neighborhood at all hours of the day and night dumpster-diving. He would bring his 'treasure' home to my mother's house. I had no idea how bad it was until I paid a visit and opened (or tried to open) the door to his room. It looked like an episode from super hoarders. That was the last straw and I staged an intervention and committed him (against my enable-mother's wishes).

He now lives in a group home and is properly medicated and for the first time in over 20 years, I can have a somewhat normal conversation with him.

Schizophrenia is a very sad situation.

Bren-2007

Geez .. River Rat .. I would be very nervous about that too.  Why can't the cops take him for a 72-hour hold.  The man is  obviously not taking his medication.

Bren

Anonymous

eff - What is your opinion of Israel/Israelis?

1Athena1

River:

I think the case you describe is a clear illustration of mental illness. Your poor neighbour is right to be scared out of her wits. But the man you describe, as you describe it, appears to be delusional and paranoid about things that have nothing to do with whatever opinion he may hold in an asymptomatic stage. That is the difference. An extremist might delude himself into thinking that because his God rules above all, then all practitioners of other belief systems must die, because that is what his God would want. He is deluded, but his thoughts are directly related to his underlying religious beliefs. In mental illness, psychosis does not have to have anything to do with what, in a non-psychotic case, a person would believe. More often than not, a person who has a psychotic episode, once back to his senses, will be embarrassed and ashamed at the things he thought - or the things he thought he thought....

Yet when the two go together - ah, there is a worse danger. Like Kaddafi saying that his people love him. I think mental illness and extremism can help to fuel each other. It bears remembering, though, that some of history's biggest monsters did not have psychotic episodes or major psychiatric disorders. Hitler comes to mind. I have never heard any indication of Osama bin Laden being ill either. Same with Dick Cheney.

Alpal

Speaking of Israel - I've been waiting for the Becksters to weigh in on the his latest gaffe about the Jewish and his non apology. I'm particularly interested in Tupelo's thoughts on the subject. Thanks!

Bren-2007

Cindy .. the Mormons consider it revered ground.  They have a little monument there to the massacre, which they claim the Indians killed the settlers.  But it's all a lie.  The Mormons killed all the settlers, woman and children.  They had permission by the Mormons to 'camp' there, but then the Mormoms set up an attack on them .. killing all of them and blaming the Indians.

Bren

River_Rat

Barbara, Bren and Athena thank you for your input.  The ill man was locked up for 10 hours Sunday after the church incident but it doesn't appear that they followed through with the psychiatric intervention and didn't get him back on his meds.  This has been going on for more than a decade.  He does something that finally gets him remanded to either a mental facility or jail (He did time for being a Peeping Tom during one of his episodes), they get him on meds, he gets better, they release him, he quits taking his meds and it starts up again.

It just seems that what he does gets more outlandish each time and the neighborhood is starting to seriously worry.  Early on it was just taking stuff from the garbage and hoarding and stuff like that as Barbara mentioned.  I think when he shaved his head and had a big cross tattooed on it that we should have started paying close attention. 

River_Rat

Bren, is there a book or someplace where I could get information on the incident you just mentioned?  I've never heard of it before and I'd like to hear/read more.

Edited to add punctuation.  

River_Rat

Thanks, hillck.   I thought Krakauer's book only dealt with the more recent episode.  It has been on my list of books I plan on reading for a long time.  I'll have to move it up the list.

Anonymous

hillck wrote:

PatMom - I think when watching those videos it's important to remember that about 1/5 of the people on earth are Muslims. That's in the range of 1.75 billion people. The % of Muslims participating in those 28 acts of violence are a tiny, tiny proportion. I can't paint Islam with a broad brush because of those few terrorists anymore than I can all of Christianity because of those disgusting people who show up at the funerals of our soldiers. 

Yes, the actions those folks from Westboro are awful, and they have been consistently criticized by a wide cross section of mainstream Christian Churches, but to the best of my knowledge, no one has died as a result of their actions.

Thousands have been murdered in incident after incident by the Muslim terrorists who have claimed to act in the name of Allah.  There has been some sporadic criticism of their actions by mainstream Muslim leaders, but not forceful consistent condemnations of the violence. 

Anonymous

Eff - you wanted a book INFIDELis a great book.  The plight of a young woman in Somalia

Also the autobiography of Queen Noor.  She briefly mentions honor killings as she paints a rosy picture of a typical woman in Jordan.

Where the 9-11 pilots terrorists?  What was their motive?  Why do Muslims want to kill Americans ?

Genital mutilation you young girls is a common practice in most Muslin countries, isn't it?

PS - Opossum was no show for dinner

Enjoyful

Christians are guilty of atrocities too.  Nobody's saying it's right, but most say that you shouldn't condemn the whole for the actions of a few.  Muslims, as a group, are NOT our enemies.  A few extremists are.

E

lassie11

Erica 31 asked "Where the 9-11 pilots terrorists?"  Ummm - they are dead.  Quite dead.

BarbaraA

E, maybe I am missing something but it does not seem to me that any of the posters believe that all muslims are terrorists because of the few extremists who are killing people. There are extremists in any religion, political party, ot even in my neighborhood. There is a lady who lives nearby who we refer to as the 'weed-inator'. She walks the 'hood, carrying a small trowel and if she sees a dollarweed in a lawn, she will scurry and dig it out and drop it in here little bag she carries. Whatever floats your boat. She is harmless but extreme.