I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

lassie11

If you'd like a fun look at ordinary Muslim families, watch "Little Mosque on the Prairie" on CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/littlemosque/

Anonymous

Ok Blue (now that I know what your screen name means, it always makes me a little sad)

I don't know if this is funny but I thought it was!  I decided to join the National Opossum Society.(www.opossums.org) I have been getting info from their site on what to feed, etc. I printed up the membership form wrote a check ($25).  I then read it closer , it stated it was ONLY an application for membership.  I also had to enclose a letter stating WHY I wanted to become a member,explain my experiences with opossums and WHY was I interested in opossums !!  Also said they would follow up with me.

Asked DH to read my letter...got a blank stare

So....keep your fingers crossed for me so I get accepted !!

Is that funny??

konakat

My, a letter to be accepted in an opossum society.  It is funny.  Of course you'll be accepted -- you're a friend to all opossums.  They're just so cute.  And I love the little cross-eyed one in Germany.

bluedahlia

hehe!  Pretty exclusive society! 

KK, I think that cross-eyed one is adorable!

Anonymous

Athena - I didn't mean stray - no home.  Just stray in my yard.  He lives about a mile from me.  I recognized him from my walks, so DH walked him back home.  or he walked DH home.

We found this same dog a few weeks ago about 2 miles from his house.  Called the owners (from dog tags) and they didn't even know he was gone !!

They said "maybe our invisible fence isn't working"   DUH  Luckily he is friendly and I have no trouble getting him on a leash.  I also cleaned up the biggest pile of poop I ever saw !!

Alpal

How do we know what Muslims do or don't do in regard to extremists? I don't have the slightest idea unless some news source tells me about it. I do regularly read news articles quoting Muslims denouncing those who resort to violence. The members of my community who are Muslim are almost exclusively a part of the medical community. In fact, I just got home from an appointment with one of them. He doesn't scare me at all. I certainly hope he doesn't associate me with the Westboro Baptist group just because I'm a Christian. Likewise, I don't condemn him because he's a Muslim and a certain segment of Muslims are extremist. BTW - I don't consider Christians who try to recruit extremist, although I do think they're often rude and offensive. Even though the Westboro group don't resort to violence, they fit into my personal definition of extreme.

3monstmama

We LOVE Little Mosque on the Prairie!  It is so funny and such great characters.  Its too bad it would never make it on US tv.....We discovered it after we moved and found Canadian tv on our cable.  We try not to miss it.  What do you think of the new priest?  We liked the old priest better.

I don't think its proselytizing [sp] that makes a group extremist or not---its other stuff.

I am not found of possums.  They bite.

ananda8

Erica,

PM me anytime.  

I think your friend it traumatized and may think that dog is part of your family.  Possums are smart but that doen't mean they have great analytical skills.  I hope she comes around.

iodine

Notself:

Pls. ck the following link from geological sourch:(I was in the Memphis one in 1973, and they were not fracking then)

 http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/fault.html

edit: to put in proper link

ananda8

Moderate Muslims have spoken out.  Perhaps it is the lack of reporting of their statements that is part of the problem.

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/06/moderate_muslim_clerics_speak.html

Terrorism has damaged the Islamic world far more than the West, and too many Muslims have been cowed and silent. But a powerful and so far largely unreported denunciation of terrorism emerged last month from Saudi Arabia's top religious leadership, known as the Council of Senior Ulema.

The Saudi fatwa is a tough condemnation of terror, and of the underground network that finances it. It has impressed senior U.S. military commanders and intelligence officers, who were initially surprised when it came out. One sent me a translation of the fatwa, and Saudi officials provided some helpful background.

"There is no gray area here," said a senior Saudi official. "Once it has come out like this, from the most senior religious body in the kingdom, it's hard for a lesser religious authority to justify violence."

The fatwa already seems to have had some impact: "Negative reaction from extremists online shows that they see this as a threat that needs to be responded to," says one senior U.S. official.

The fatwa begins with a clear definition of terrorism, which it calls "a crime aiming at destabilizing security" by attacking people or property, public or private. The document goes on to list examples of this criminal activity: "blowing up of dwellings, schools, hospitals, factories, bridges, airplanes (including hijacking), oil and pipelines." It doesn't mention any geographical area where such actions might be permissible.

What's striking is that the fatwa specifically attacks financing of terrorism. The Muslim religious council said it "regards the financing of such terrorist acts as a form of complicity to those acts ... to bring a conduit for sustaining and spreading of such evil acts."

The fatwa goes on: "The council rules that the financing of terrorism, the inception, help or attempt to commit a terrorist act of whatever kind or dimension, is forbidden by Islamic Sharia and constitutes a punishable crime thereby; this includes gathering or providing of finance for that end." The fatwa exempts "legitimate charity to help the poor" from this ban.

"The financier of terrorism is more often than not more dangerous than the actual terrorist, since without funds, schemes fail and things do not take place," said Fahd al-Majid, the secretary-general of the Senior Ulema Council, in a May 23 interview with Asharq al-Awsat, a London-based Arabic daily.

Given the role that wealthy Saudis have played in financing radical Islamic groups in the past, the fatwa has a significant potential impact. For Muslims in the kingdom, it has the force of law and it will provide a strong religious and legal backing for Saudi and other Arab security services as they track terrorist networks.

It will be harder, too, for renegade clerics to issue rival fatwas that contradict the Saudi Ulema. The signatories are guardians of the conservative Wahhabi school of Islam, which to observers has sometimes seemed to sympathize with the Muslim extremists. The fatwa, dated April 12 but issued publicly in May, was approved unanimously by the 19 members of the council. To implement the fatwa, the Saudi Shura Council is drafting a counterterrorism finance law.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm

The strangeness as well as the extremity of the New York attacks has been reflected in the strenuous denunciations we have heard from Muslim leaders around the world. For them, this has been a rare moment of unity. Mohammed Tantawi, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar University, the highest institution of learning in the Sunni world, has bitterly condemned the outrages. In Shi'ite Iran, Ayatollah Kashani called the attacks "catastrophic", and demanded a global mobilization against the culprits. The Organisation of the Islamic Conference, normally well known for its indecision, unanimously condemned "these savage and criminal acts".

ananda8

Iodine,

I can't open your link.  When I copy it, it goes to another article.

iodine

http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/fault.html

 OOPS!  thanks for pointing that out.  must have been a previous copy/paste

1Athena1

I do think that extremists do not have to be violent in order to qualify for the moniker. Extremism is a hard term to define and, as I said, can be in the eye of the beholder. I grew up/went to school in several countries and one thing I took from it was that it is easy to initially see some ideas as outlandish (not extremist, but I am getting there). The more one hears of them, though, the more one gets used to them and they become a new normal. They are the mainstream of the environment in which you are in.

What is considered shocking or unreasonable in one culture can be so normal in another in ways large and small.

I can envision being surrounded by religious fundamentalists, whether in Alabama or in Karachi or Jerusalem and slowly getting used to it. Even without agreeing, but you can lose your sense of shockability or proportion. You can forget that what you are seeing is unacceptable by the standards outside of that culture or region, and you may even forget that it was once unacceptable by your own. 

Consider prison life, for example. You hear about the Aryan brotherhood gangs, the black gangs, the Mexicans, etc.... all completely segregated and hating each other to death and not afraid to say it. The taboos and niceties (and hypocrisy) of the outside do not apply. Many men (I am talking about male prisons) who are newly imprisoned later say that they were not particularly racist but had no choice but to join the gang of their skin color and nationality. And then they get used to it. The tattoos with the crips and bloods, the swastikas, etc.... become - mainstream.

And that's why what is extreme, even in politics, can be relative.

I am not a relativist per se (I think relativism is for cowards and for literary critics, whom I admire). There are things one should try to never accept or get used to. It is very important to "know thyself" as one moves across cultures, even if the crowds are not very diverse in other ways. My point is that all of us here may well disagree on what constitutes extremism because our "normal" is at a different point on the continuum.

kadeeb

Otter,

Hope everything is good down your way. Noticed that the line of thunderstorms was getting pretty close to your neck of the woods.

Erica,

We have devoted pages of this thread to the opossum. OF COURSE WE CARE!!

I stand by my original post this morning on extremist. They are off the board in one direction or the other. I have trouble with using the labels that are sometimes applied along with the "extreme" term. Most of them aren't christian, muslim, catholic or anything but extreme. A friend of mine once said about labels that, "If I get up in the morning, run down stairs and jump in the oven, that doesn't make me a biscuit". 

Wabbit

In just a few minutes I found more examples of Muslims speaking out against terrorism ...  perhaps the first statement says it all.   

http://www.cair.com/americanmuslims/antiterrorism.aspx The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has a clear record of consistently and persistently condemning terrorism. Yet American Muslim groups like CAIR get repeatedly asked the question why have Muslims not spoken out against terrorism? The fact is they have, but who is listening?

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100926/NEWS06/309260001/Muslims-acceptance-U-S-society-still-an-issue-notes-outgoing-Islamic-Society-North-America-leader

Ingrid Mattson made history four years ago by being elected the first female president of the Plainfield-based Islamic Society of North America.  Just a couple of examples of her statements.

Aug. 7, 2010: The Islamic Society issues a statement condemning the Taliban murders of civilian aid workers in Afghanistan. Mattson says the murders are against the "foundation" of Islam.

May 21, 2009: The Islamic Society issues a statement commending law enforcement agencies for foiling a plot to blow up two New York synagogues. Mattson says, "We reject unequivocally such violence."

And more ...  http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm  contains a whole list of statements condemning terrorist attacks.

Was any of this played up in the national media ... blared out on FOX or CNN or any of the others.  I don't know but too many people don't seem to be aware of it so I'm guessing it was not. 

LOL at Erica.  You have small dogs don't you?  I've always had big dogs ... I know what you mean about those big piles of poop    Hopefully your possum friend will get over being skittish soon ... he's probably just afraid that dog is still around.  I can't speak for anybody else but I always like animal stories. 

Hope everybody is done with the storms and enjoying a nice evening!       

annettek

Bren- I have to agree on those poor folks that were killed by the pirates...in fact one of them went to my high school and facebook is racing with how she was a hero and the best and died for Jesus...WTF? I feel horrible when anyone dies or is murdered, but of course it always helps if you don't go directly where you know it is dangerous. And before anyone gets angry at my attacking a "missionary"...her brother and friends gave interviews attesting to her love of adventurous travel and the excitement of sailing on a seagoing yacht. Makes no sense to me at all. This is far different to me from the brave souls who go to war zones and help dispense food and medical care while living in intolerable conditions with those they are helping...that is doing good works of a magnititude I can not imagine...don't get me wrong, a bible, a koran or a torah are great, but if it is against the LAW of the land in which you are visiting to hand them out, well, when in rome and all that...besides, the pirates went after the yacht for that reason...it was a yacht.

1Athena1

I didn't want to say anything about the pile of poop - it reminded me of a time when I slipped and fell over some!! But the wabbit had to bring it up again.  And it wasn't my dog, which makes it really yukky. One's own "flesh and blood" (Camilla or Athena) is OK, but not someone else's....

kadeeb

Someone posted earlier the question "were missionaries extremists?" I don't think it is being a missionary that makes one an extremist but his/her actions that can categorize him/her as extremist.

Both my x inlaws were/are Southern Baptist. My x FIL was a good man that never imposed his beliefs or principles on anyone else. He was known by his deeds and respected for living what he believed instead of imposing his position on others. My x MIL was the opposite, she could (and probably did, on a regular basis) pi$$ off a saint. He passed away 20 years ago and was and still is much missed. She's still living and it is my honest opinion, if there is a God, that he didn't think he could put up with her, so she's still here. I could be a little prejudiced.

annettek

river rat-did you say Photobucker!?indeed:)

1Athena1

kadeeb,

In agreement with your post, I would never categorize a devoutly religious person as extremist. I agree that actions would have to follow. I know and have grown up amidst very devout people. Some had chapels in their homes and prayed every day, but they never tried to get others to do what they did. In my mind, they are simply devout Christians. Never extremists. They never held ideas that could be called extreme. They believed in God, which most people do, and they practiced their religion with more discipline and commitment than most. I have great respect for very devout people, as a matter of fact. Strange for an atheist, but there you go. I like people who really question things. I questioned them and my answer was "no." They questioned them and their answer was "yes." And so they lived accordingly. They took it upon themselves to carve their own path and practice religion more than those around them.

kadeeb

Athena, I think one would label you as an athiest, not an extremist. Your choices are yours based on your experiences, research and your truth. That should be good enough for anyone. I too have questions but am not yet ready to say I know the answer!

River_Rat

Annettek, apparently I did say Photobucker, which should not be taken as an editorial comment on the site Photobucket.  LOL!

kadeeb

River,

good thing you didn't get the b mixed up with the f. This could have turned into and x rated site. 

Alpal

I am appalled at the actions of some extremists in the Middle East. The stonings, beheadings, cutting off hands and feet, etc. The treatment of women is disgusting. I truly think it's horrible, but to tell the truth it sounds like what took place in the Old Testament. No, I am not an Atheist - don't accuse me of bashing Christianity. Just an observation. 

kadeeb

hillck,

The actions of the "someone" who preaches(preaching is an action) murder is in itself the act of an extremist.

1Athena1

hmmmm - that is when things get really gray.

I think there are several ways in which a person participates in the acts of an extremist leader. Some participation is a consequence of agreement with the leader's ideas and actions. Other participation comes from attraction to the leader. Other, still, comes from loneliness and the need to belong to a group that gives one a sense of identity and purpose.

The difficulty in answering you question, hillck, is that we are now adding the extra variable of group-think, group dynamics and leadership, which can often override the philosophical component of extremism.

Your example makes me think of the Charles Manson cult. His main followers, the participants in the Tate murders, were likely as extremist as he, but what about the dozens of others who were in that commune? There was a hierarchy of proximity to Manson and familiarity with his end-of-the-world ideas. The stragglers at the end of that line of closeness were very likely mild-mannered druggie-bums.

kadeeb

To add to Athena's comments, those followers held sit in's and cut the natzi emblem in their foreheads and shaved their heads to show support for Manson. Very extremist actions. As we all know, being bald is not a normal choice in life.

otter

But, who decides which ideas are "extreme"?  What seems extreme to someone in the Deep South might seem perfectly normal, or at least reasonable, in California ... and vice versa.  And, as we all know, what's acceptable -- or, at least legal -- in the U.S. might seem outrageous in Canada.

So, then, is it wrong for someone to adapt (assimilate) when moving from familiar surroundings to a strange, new culture?  Is it wrong for "extremism" to be relative (or situational)?

I am asking this out of curiosity.  If travel is healthy and Mark Twain* was correct, then we ought to be less quick to judge other people's behaviors as "extremist" once we get to know them.

otter

*"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime."

kadeeb

The Manson cult is a perfect example of extremism. Those charged with the murders were the only ones who were ever proved to have knowledge of the murders. Manson himself did not take part but his actions and teachings set the ball rolling down the hill. He was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. The others of the cult (those not participating or with knowledge of the murders) were equally extreme in their lifestyle. They sat by while their children were abused or others of the cult were tortured or beaten. They participated in ritual abuse of others including their own children. They gave every dime they could beg, steal or borrow to Manson. They may have been brainwashed but they decided to move to the desert and follow a mad man.  They were not inocent bystanders they were participants (participation denotes action).

Medigal

Blue:  Medigurt is not a typo.  That's the "cute" name Laura and her pals call me on her real site ..  That's ok, Laura.  I have a great sense of humor and can even make fun of myself if it helps lighten up things.  I am just not a fence sitter and long ago I decided where I belonged and I don't belong on threads that like to mock others.  Have your fun.  Nothing lasts forever.

BTW, Laura:  You seem to enjoy letting us know about all the places you volunteer for but I really don't like to blow my own horn.  But.......since you are so curious, I have spent my life participating in politics and have a close relative who has a position appointed by the governnor of his state.  We have always been politically active. .  I also have been very active raising money and doing fundraisers for charities for which I have gotten awards.  I have been a "stay at home" mom who actually didn't get to spend much time just at home.  When I did, I was usually doing my charity work for my community.  As the ole song says "Anything you can do, I bet I have already done, "better"!   

Have a good evening Ladies