Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

I have to say I’m surprised when I see reports of health care settings where masks aren’t being worn.

Every medical office, cancer center, hospital, etc that I’ve been to is enforcing masking for both patients and workers.

Not just oncology units - everywhere, including the hospital lobby

KBL,

What sources other than the CDC or WHO would you consider acceptable/reliable? Off the top of my head, I couldn't think of any other comprehensive, national/international health agencies that would fit the bill. As far as VAERS goes, it may be a starting point for spotting trends but it has one enormous problem…anyone can report adverse reactions on VAERS without verification.

“Anyone can report events to VAERS (vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html) and a disclaimer on the CDC's website says: "The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable" (here ). When downloading the data, users are presented with a further disclaimer that the data do not include information from investigations into reported cases. The disclaimer also says "the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality" (here ).

Reuters explored this lack of causality in other fact check articles visible here , here and here .

Missing context. The posts show number of VAERS death reports out of context to falsely claim that thousands of U.S. vaccine recipients who died after getting the vaccine died as a result of getting the vaccine."
Additionally, this statement appears as part of the disclaimer on the VAERS site:

“While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness.“

So although I think it is helpful in finding unexpected trends, inaccurate, incomplete, coincidental, and unverifiable are clear caveats to the reader that reaching conclusions based on their data does not imply causality. More importantly, unverifiable is a big red flag.

I think I saw a question above, the gist of which was -how can people who mistrust the vaccine trust a horse de-wormer.

A few thoughts - I'm not an Ivermectin advocate but first, Ivermectin is an approved anti-parasitic medication for use by humans, both here in the USA and worldwide. It is also used in animals and the animal version is over the counter, unlike the human version.

Ivermectin, to my knowledge, first became associated with COVID therapy because reports from India and Argentina indicated that it *might* be effective. I just visited clinicaltrials.gov and did a search for

Condition: COVID 19

Other terms: Ivermectin

And a bunch of results come up from around the world. If I narrow the search to United States, I still see current trials that are currently recruiting. So, the idea that an anti parasitical medication *may* possibly be effective is perhaps not that far fetched?

At least, some researchers think it's a hypothesis worth falsifying. That is what science does.

Again, I'm not advocating or agreeing with Ivermectin-for-COVID advocates, whom I believe are misguided at best and unscrupulous at worst. I'm just saying, this is where the idea came from.

So anyway, why are some people taking it in the veterinary formula? Because it's over the counter.

When you can't get a doctor to prescribe what you want, or can't afford it, you do what you feel is necessary.

The sad reality is...it is fairly common for uninsured people to take veterinary medications if they can't afford prescription pharmaceuticals . I know someone who ordered veterinary antibiotics off Amazon because she couldn't afford to see a doctor. Wasn't me...I wouldn't do that. The worst I've ever done was use an old tube of toradex (eye antibiotic) on my infected finger. My point is - it might not be the first time taking vet meds for some of these people, out of necessity. And see also, the aforementioned dog dewormer.

They fear the vaccine but they don't fear a simple generic drug that they know hasn't killed their livestock. That, I believe, is the logic.

I think it's better to try to understand people's fears and motivations rather than scoff at them. Not saying anyone here does that...I do see a lot of it on social media though. If people in power want to overcome vaccine hesitancy, understanding and clear unbiased information, should be the message.

Doctors choosing not to treat the unvaccinated- are they refusing to treat people they think might be contagious or are they choosing not to treat people as punishment?

Personally, I have not heard credible reports of this actually happening but I have seen plenty of mean people online saying it should happen.

If a health care worker is afraid someone is contagious they could require a COVID test before treating the person.

But to refuse to treat because you disapprove of their behavior? Where do we draw the line on that? You smoked for 20 years so no lung cancer treatment? You drank so no liver transplant...okay, we actually do that but they aren’t denied all care and it isn’t up to provider to decide where they are placed on a transplant list. You’re obese,,,too bad about your heart disease.

You smoke in bed...firefighters won’t help you if your house burns down. A stupid choice, no doubt. But that person still receives services where I’m from

olma,

Did you see my comment above re: Louisiana? The governor as well as several public health and safety officials were very clear that rescuers would not endanger their own lives nor make rescues a priority for those who did not heed evacuation orders. Isn’t that in the same vein? I think that’s perfectly fair by the way.

is this a current situation or was this during Hurricane Katrina? I know there wer a lot of people who criticized the way Katrina was handled at every level. I also read about hospitalized patients who were left to die in the floods because it was difficult to move them. Many people disagree with the handling of that particular aspect,also.

debbew, thanks for the link. Even in this report, hard to verify if he has actually done it or just made a post on FB. I’d question if he actually even works there

“NBC News has not verified the authenticity of the post, which is now private. Neither Valentine nor representatives at the medical clinic where he works could be reached for comment.”

My opinion is not directed to anyone on these boards who has had cancer, currently has cancer or is stage IV cancer like I am. I know there are people with medical reasons to not get vaccinated, including those in treatment that don't want one more "shot". If you take those in to consideration, as a world we could still reach herd immunity if the vast majority get vaccinated. Without enough people vaccinated, we will continue to have variants. It seems to me that the general public does not understand the science and the general public is very self centered.

Three of my neighbors are Phd Microbiologists. 2 have been working on the Covid vaccine (one has been on cnn and national news quite a bit) and the other one is working on type 1 diabetes. We had a casual outdoor gathering last night in our Court (bring your own lawn chair and beverage) and these scientists are shocked and horrified that the US and the world are in the position. They warned us that the lambda variant is very strong and on it's way - all because people want to shout "my body my rights" . This only works if your decision doesn't impact the rest of us. Yes, it is my choice to take Ibrance/Fulvestrant. If I choose not to take these drugs, most likely my cancer will progress faster and I will die sooner. It will not spread to others in my household and my community and potentially kill them. MY BODY MY CHOICE. When the news media announces a variant, the "anti-vaxxers" start up with the "see - vaccines don't work" DUH - they won't work unless we have a very high percentage vaccinated? It is really sad/frustrating/unreal to me.

I am stage IV, I would LOVE to travel while I am up to it, I would LOVE to see my family that lives far away. I am not able to live freely due to too many people discounting the serious nature of the pandemic and the actual science. This is like Polio. Polio vaccines were mandatory. Polio was eradicated.

Teedoff, I hear you. I also feel cheated out of living the life I have left.

edited to add: Yes, I have had the Pfizer vaccines and my husband has as well. We did not have any reactions (besides sore arm, slightly achy). We were vaccinated in March and I just had the booster, on the advice of my oncologist as my husband and i will be traveling by plane on Sept. 3rd to the east coast. I really don't want to get Covid, have Ibrance and my current treatment put on hold, and have my cancer get worse.

KBL adding an attachment i came across is all I can manage. I have read all I needed over the last year or so to trust my health department so searching for proof at this point just goes against my typing fingers muscle memory.LOL. Sorry.

Good idea KBL. You can keep checking tomorrow. Have a good rest

I understand vaccine hesitancy, I had medical issues years ago that coincided with a vaccine booster shot. The side effects lasted for months, and eventually went away on their own. I saw a neurologist and had umpteen different tests, no conclusion. BUT despite that history, I had the Covid vaccine, and the previous issues did not repeat.

I do not understand refusal to wear a mask, getting in other people's space to argue with them about masks, yelling, fighting etc over masks or trying to prevent others from getting the vaccine.. I also don't understand taking veterinary grade medication or anything else not recognized by the general medical community.

It is insanely frustrating that Covid is dragging on, with no apparent end. I wanted to get back to normal after finishing treatment, travel, visit friends and family and basically try to do bucket list items ASAP in case my cancer comes back, which is far from unrealistic considering I had IBC. I think the normal reaction is to find someone to blame, and it would be easy to blame the unvaccinated. But, we live in a global economy, people travel, and much of the rest of the world do not readily have access to vaccines. Variants will continue to arise in other countries, and will eventually make their way here.

I don't understand how politicized the vaccine has become. I feel like I've left reality and entered the twilight zone. Texas seems to be one place that is constantly in the news as full of anti-vax sentiment. I lived in Texas years ago. The conservative hospital I worked at mandated flu vaccines, very few complained. At some point the Republican governor mandated pre-teen girls to be vaccinated against HPV, yet that did not have even remotely the amount of backlash as the idea of mask mandates in schools.

I am angry at people who spread misinformation, or try to prevent others from taking care of themselves. What is to be gained?

Honestly, if I wanted to believe in conspiracies, I would find it much more believable that the mocking of mask wearing, spreading of misinformation, fighting the vaccines is only serving the purpose of reducing future medical burden by killing off people with pre-existing conditions. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than thinking Bill Gates has nothing better to do track my whereabouts with a chip in a vaccine...

Illimae said, "I do wish media would have a special program on how viruses and vaccines work..." I agree wholeheartedly. Some education and some great graphics would go a long way. Here is one from the Spanish newspaper El País that really explains some things about covid transmission.

"A room, a bar and a classroom: how the coronavirus is spread through the air"

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html