Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

KBL

Or that the answers aren’t enough to sway my decision.

Last comment for now. I don’t want to offend by not answering further if someone writes personally. Please do not take offense. I did appreciate the dialogue. When your husband has to ask you to get off your phone and spend time with him, that’s what’s important to me.

wrenn

"Or that the answers aren't enough to sway my decision." Exactly why I asked what it would take. I think we might be wasting our time.

Teedoff

Agreed, Wrenn. The immovable object has not yet met the irresistible force. We can also agree that some minds can’t/won’t be changed. So glad I have vaccinated friends and relatives in my bubble. There are some folks who won’t be invited in for tea and crumpets.

exbrnxgrl

Asking questions is not the problem for anyone! A lot of questions have been answered , many references have been provided and it’s been pointed out that the luxury of time does not exist in a worldwide pandemic. I’m afraid that nothing but an iron clad guarantee of a no side effects vaccine may be the only way to convince some people. But that will never happen with Covid19 vaccines nor most anything in this world and particularly medical science. There is probably nothing that will change some people’s minds (but I will challenge misinformation and rumor whenever I can! ).

jhl

Hi KBL,

Personally, I enjoy the thoughtful discourse that the questions & answers provide. Part of my daily job is to help people make sense of complex medical questions and I never mind explaining the same thing several times in different ways. None of us come here to convince YOU however if your stance changes after this discourse, that is all the better.

I have noted the questions/concerns fall into several areas: vaccines & how they work, masks & why we wear them, potential side effects of Covid &/or the vaccine. These are all easy things to explain. Then, there are questions about epidemiology and that is more difficult because the data is being gathered in real time. However, after 18 months, we can see trends. Finally, there are anecdotal reports that you & someone else cited of a mother who has had her custody limited due to non vaccination & a patient dying in the ED for lack of an ICU bed. To me, these stories are meant to inflame, incite & obfuscate the real issues and are not meaningful to the discussion although they are substantial to the individuals involved.

KBL, what are your concerns? This group has so many people who are experts in their fields and are willing to help. However, when you become emotionally charged, it is difficult to separate that from a learned conversation. I would encourage you to continue your participation because the questions you post may be someone's else's concern as well.

Stay well,

Jane

Teedoff

Bless teachers. They don’t give up! Yes, misinformation and out and out falsehoods need to be challenged lest they take over and harden views

KBL

It was quite silly of me to think, as an unvaccinated person, I could start a rant page for the vaccinated. I will either be taking down the page totally or if the moderators let me know someone can take over, I’d be very happy to leave it up and give the topic to someone else. I just wanted it away from the STEAM ROOM topic so others’ concerns weren’t drowned out, and no one would start the discussion. I did have good intentions. I’m just over talking about it and want to get back to my occasional posts and few favorites that I have.

I will leave this up until tomorrow. If there is a way to transfer it to someone else, please let me know if there is a volunteer.

wrenn

KBL, your quest to move this topic away from the steamroom was successful so I don't understand your last post. It worked. No one is posting about covid on that thread.

Teedoff

The activity and content of responses may have been unexpected. You are perhaps more aware of the opinions and sensitivities of others with breast cancer. Thank you for the forum. As Jane says in her messages, stay well.

exbrnxgrl

KBL,

I am sorry if you were put off because many did not rant about COVID vaccines in the way you’d hoped. I think everyone has been honest and respectful as well as providing some excellent information and links to help all of us understand the COVID vaccines. You cannot delete the thread, however you can remove your op but the thread will still exist if you do remove it. No need to transfer it to anyone else as removing your op has no effect on the rest of the thread. Take good care and I hope you find answers that satisfy you.

exbrnxgrl

jhl/Jane,

Thank you! Your expertise is appreciated

trinigirl50

KBL

Why are you so afraid of the truth?

My belief in the essential goodness of humanity has been renewed just by observing the patience and willingness of "teachers" and "academics" on this site who have respectfully answered each of your questions as you continued to move the goal post, in the hopes of hearing what you wanted to hear.

I would ask you not not remove your posts because your questions reflect what others also feel and are thus valid. The responses might really be helpful to others, even if they have not been what you hoped for.

Stay safe stay well.

And on a separate note

My rant: I work in social services in particular with the elderly. Most of my coworkers refuse to be vaccinated, and now that we have an outbreak (and quite a number of them are ill), they are pissed off at the unvaccinated woman who brought it in, although most of them don't wear their masks except when at work. The lack of logic (and these are not stupid people) is stunning.

illimae

With respect, I don’t think we can possibly know “the truth” yet. We don’t know how covid started for sure, we don’t know what side effects may become known later, we don’t have unbiased data, we don’t even have reliable and accurate data on hospitalizations (some delayed reporting/some errors).

What should have been handled and presented as a purely medical issue has been turned into political and economic madness and the us vs them mob is too much, on both sides of the issue.

Goldens, I’m sorry you had to deal with covid but I am happy that the vaccine gave you some protection and hope your recovery is quick and complete.

runor

I am late to the party!

I have not read all posts - there are a lot of them! 

Wrenn, to your point which I think is basically' what would it take to convince someone to get the shot?'  That is a HUGE question, but the one that (for me) gets to the heart of the matter. 

Proof. I need proof that the threat is as big as the ask. I have been asked to do things FAR outside my cultural, societal and personal comfort zone. And by comfort I don't just mean comfort, but to do things that push me to the edge of my ethical and moral tolerance. So the THREAT must be MASSIVE and those who tell me it is better be telling  the truth. 

With this being an unknown (novel) virus, asking us to mask, distance, isolate, close schools and businesses etc was reasonable. For a very limited time. Reasonable, with a clear end in sight.  While we were trying to get this figured out, trying to assess the SIZE of the threat, all emergency measures were warranted. But they were on the clock to provide supporting evidence that defined  continuation or cessation of extreme measures. 

As I see it, there is a hierarchy that determines the level of reaction warranted.   1)  Is it killing our kids? This would be maximum, full panic, stop the world, freak the fuck out level shit! So this is at the top of the list. For this we inject oven cleaner into our veins if we think it saves our (and everyone's) kids from death and permanent injury. Very quickly we learned that kids were the safest of all. Right there the govts of the world should have backed the hell down. But like a dog on a bone once they grabbed on, the human drive to be evil shits took over and they plowed forward screaming that we were in an emergency when clearly, we were not even close.

2) was it killing everyone who is exposed?  No. Not even close. It turns out to be extremely survivable by the VAST majority of people who encounter it. So most of the world was never at any risk of death or damage. That should have ended all public measures right there. Back to normal life people! 

3) is the vaccine time tested, low risk, very tolerable and will one shot do it, like one polio shot and one smallpox shot? If the answer to that had all been yes, I might now have a shot. It's coming to light more and more that the bad reactions to this vax are mounting and its efficacy is waning. I would take one, safe, effective shot. I will NOT get on the merry-go-round of boosters and oops you still need to wear a mask and distance and slather hand sanitizer on yourself. Nope. That is not where I will go. This vax is seeming pretty half cocked and its looking worse all the time. 

We often make reference on this site to 'playing the cancer card'. We  say it thus because we know it's kind of a shitty, manipulative and sometimes dishonest thing to do to get our own way. It guilts people. It plays on making them feel bad.  It's an emotional coercion to gain special treatment .  Well, we are seeing that on a global scale. Scared people are playing the covid card, the social responsibility card. Someone else's risk is being laid at my feet as if I am guaranteed to be sick, guaranteed to sneeze on their cheese and crackers and they are guaranteed to get virus and guaranteed to die from it. We all know statistically that's a pretty big stretch.   I see this insistence that it's someone else's social duty to sooth the public sense of panic as the very worst human ethic. We all accept very high risks every day of our lives and in accepting those risks we have cancelled our right to howl for special treatment, Papersss for zeee un vaxxxed! If you have ever loved someone who was unstable, who threatened to commit suicide every time life didn't go their way, threatened to kill them self if you didn't hand over what they demanded, you would quickly recognize when a ruthless foe was fighting dirty for their own gain at your expense. Emotional blackmail. If people have the means to protect themselves from risk by masking or staying home or vaxxing but  still want everyone else to make them safe too, at their expense, regardless of how the others feel about it  then they are the ruthless dirty fighter whose claims of loving thy brother are actually not true. Except in their own mind. But it has nothing to do with personal medical decisions. 

I do not want to get covid. I don't know that I would survive it. My lungs are my weak spot. I was watching the J&J shot but in this part of Canada it seems it is not available. The next of interest  was the Novavax, not sure if it is available here. So I have not removed vaccination as a possibility. I am not interested in the new mrna shots. But it will be a cold day in hell before I ever step forward in a line and say,  I am better, more special, more deserving than everyone else and I want special treatment and they can go home because I am entitled to the life we had in 2019 and they are not - based on having a vaccination or not. I would rather eat a shit sandwich than be that person. My fears are mine. My health is mine. The steps I  take to protect myself are personal and mine. No one owes me their life and freedom. Our kids are not dying. Everyone is not dying. We know who is dying and know how to help them. This is not an emergency. A tragedy is not an emergency. 
 

Anonymous

KBL - don’t leave the discussion, take a break if you need to, but don’t worry about deleting, etc.

It is possible to hide threads on here if you don’t want to see them in the active list - although I don’t know if that works when you’re the thread starter. Also, you can block individuals if you need to. Just some tools for focusing your attention elsewhere for awhile.

Take care of yourself and enjoy the day

wrenn

4.5 million deaths worldwild sounds serious to me

gb2115

The mask thing really is an issue. I posted earlier yesterday but commented that our mask policy isn't being followed in a healthcare setting. It drives me nuts. I think the problem is that many of the staff are vaccinated, thus assume it's not important, including the person in charge. The practitioners wear them around the patients but then take it off in other parts of the building. I have one coworker who just doesn't wear one, and many who only put it on when they see me coming. That's ok if it's not lingering airborne virus. Many patients sit there with masks around their mouth and no one says anything.

Though many around me are vaccinated, I would feel better if I felt confident that they are unlikely to unknowingly shed virus to me. I keep seeing wildly different reports on whether or not vaccinated people are contagious. Lots of vaccinated people walking around with "allergies" so naturally I worry. Early on in covid, one of those "allergies" ended up being covid.

illimae

Runor, that’s a rant, lol. I don’t know if you just shut this thread down or if I need to get popcorn ready.

Beesie

I think this has been an interesting and informative thread. I have learned a lot from those on the front lines and those with different areas of expertise than me.

KBL, you may have started this thread but you don't need to keep posting to keep the thread alive. Nor does someone need to take over from you. Look at the Book Lover's Club thread. It was started in 2010 by konakat (Elizabeth), who passed away in 2011. She was a much loved member of this board I think it's wonderful that her thread, and therefore her presence on this site, lives on more than 10 years after she died. I'll bet she'd be thrilled.

All that it takes for a thread to continue is for people to keep posting.

One of my pet peeves about this site is that the Mods remove whole threads when an OP requests it, without any consideration to all the other people who have taken the time to post in that thread, and without consideration of the value of the discussion to other readers. From my perspective, while it's preferable if an OP stays engaged, and while the OP owns their own posts within a thread, once they've started a thread and put it into the public domain, the OP does not own that thread and should have no say on the thread stays on the board or is removed. So I certainly hope that this thread is not removed by the Moderators. KBL, I also hope that you do not remove your posts because they add value to and provide context for the discussion. I have no doubt that this thread has many more readers than posters, and I'm sure this topic will remain of interest to many people for some time to come.

KBL

Had some awesome pizza and came back to check in.

I will not delete my posts. I appreciate everyone asking me not to. I do have the ability to take it out of my favorites, I believe, if I need to. I just felt all the comments were coming my way, which I understand, and I really do need to take a breather. It's not that I couldn't handle them, I'm just the type of person who feels if someone speaks to me with my name, it's rude not to answer.

Thank you all. Let's keep the conversation going, but please let me have a breather so I can refresh.

exbrnxgrl

runor,

I have no desire to go toe to toe with you. I think we are aware of each other’s positions. I am not sure where you live but in the US, hospitals/ICU’s in several states with low vaccination rates are full to overflowing. In Louisiana, currently being clobbered by Hurricane Ida, there were few if any places to move patients out of harms way from the storm because hospitals in surrounding areas were already impacted by Covid19 patients. Doctors, nurses, therapists, techs, etc., are exhausted and emotionally depleted. I understand that the words emergency and tragedy are subjective. This is a tragedy for sure but it’s also one of the biggest emergencies I have witnessed in my lifetime (You may be older or younger than I am. Regardless, we are adults) .

I don’t know if I view my commitment to community and the greater good as any kind of duty to soothe anyone or anything. For me, helping others and thinking beyond myself are just part of my personality. Beyond that, I am not certain I can make anyone understand why it’s important to care about others. It is also an important religious concept for me. I am not overtly religious, in the sense of observant practice, but I love the concept of Tikkun Olum, healing the world, working to betterthe world in this life because it’s the right thing to do, not because you’re looking for a place in heaven. I understand that not all value this POV, but it’s a core value for me. Take care.

TB90

“A tragedy is not an emergency “. Our opinions are fine, but we cannot start defining the world just as it suits us. Multiple deaths by suicide in one week in an isolated community is both a tragedy and an emergency. That is my reality and not an opinion used to defend my stance in a rant. I had to rant about that as it really struck a chord. I also believe that multiple preventable deaths is also an emergency. Speak with the families left behind as I do and try to claim it’s not.

jhl

Runor,

In the interest of correcting misinformation, the polio vaccine is not one shot - it is three. Smallpox has been eradicated world wide since 1978 and the vaccine is no longer routinely administered. There are about 20 million doses stockpiled if the need arises. It took about 200 years for it to be completely eradicated. Immunity from all vaccines wane over time, that is a fact. Vaccines do not prevent infections. They provide a way for your body to recognize viruses by creating antibodies. The antibodies will then trigger your body to release cells that will destroy the invading virus. However, the Delta variant reproduces itself so much faster than previous variants so we have a larger viral load that overwhelms our immune system. Thus, we have unvaccinated & vaccinated shedding the virus at the same rate.

The third arm of our immunity is our T-cells which are vaccine induced. These cells kill off our own infected cells & it is this part of immunity which limits the severity of disease. T cells do not provide protection against getting infected, they only mitigate severity once infected.

There is so much more to say ....

Jane

December11

KBL, I posted once before in this forum. It was about something you also wrote about but NOT specifically to you. It was to anyone who bothered reading it.

exbrnxgrl

KBL,

Enjoy your breather and rest assured that no one will think you rude if you don't respond to them, even if they mentioned your name!

Aram

"This is not an emergency. A tragedy is not an emergency. "

What is an emergency then? The fact that last January Quebec and Ontario triage protocols were reviewed with ER staff to be prepared in case they need to choose who to admit was not an emergency? We were a week or two weeks away from choosing who can get life saving admission to hospitals. That exact scenario happened in Italy at the beginning of the pandemic.

Anonymous

not a rant exactly but a question - if hospitals in Texas and anywhere else are being overwhelmed with cases again, is the Federal government going to step in and provide relief, as they did early on? In NY we had the hospital ship and the emergency beds at the Javits center. Which wound up underutilized, if I remember correctly. But still, the extra capacity was available if needed.

Melbo

runor — I don’t think you believe this, but it almost sounds like it was okay when it was only killing the old and sick, as long as it wasn’t killing children. Which is of course horrifying. Now of course the situation has changed again — delta is more dangerous and is threatening children and the young. Have you not seen the news about that? Do you not believe the news? At what point do you think it is an emergency? How many more more have to get sick and die? How many people have to die of other things because the hospitals were too full of covid patients? Also, are you against the flu vaccine as well? They have to change that every year because viruses mutate — is that also a problem?

illimae

Olma, As far as I know, federal assistance has not been asked for in Texas. Many of the city/county (free) hospitals, which are often 80% (if I recall correctly) full with typical emergencies are having issues but it would seem they are not full of covid patients, although additional patients are a burden. The Texas governor is bringing in nurses from other states and I think some hospital areas are being converted to patient rooms to handle the overflow. Not once during the pandemic did I witness any difference in the med ctr, the clinic I frequent or the hospital DH goes to (no crowds, lines, temporary buildings) but, I’m not there often enough to see what goes on outside my view.

DebAL

Extra capacity is not the problem. Skilled staff is. There is so much shuffling of staff that if you go to the hospital with a heart attack there is a good chance you will be the first heart attack patient your nurse has cared for. Ever. The skilled nurses are back to the covid bedside. On previous surges patients were on designated covid floors. Im betting not this time. Since covid will be around awhile they will just be intermingled as part of the nurses assignment. I'd prefer not to have my nurse just come from a covid patients bedside. Quality care suffers. There is no way around it