Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

AlwaysMeC

Regarding doctors refusing to treat patients, I haven't actually heard of any in our state, but our pediatrician closed his office temporarily for two months, starting last week. They said that with schools open and the rise of cases, he didn't want to expose his staff or the healthy kids getting regular check ups.

A lady in my support group mentioned her primary doctor was retiring this year. A major reason for her retirement is that her husband died last year due to catching Covid from a patient. He was a well loved and respected doctor, so it was in the news as well.

I understand why non ER docs might be hesitant to treat patients. It's not like they have the same kind of PPE as in the ER or the money to keep changing it. And they also have healthy patients that they don't want to risk.

AlwaysMeC

Debbew, when there were isolated measles outbreaks a few years ago some pediatricians were refusing patients who didn't have their vaccinations. They were trying to protect the babies that didn't have their full series of vaccinations.

jhl

Shetland,

Point well taken. Sadly, Candy's sister, Susan passed away today.

I will keep Candy in my thoughts tonight

Jane

Anonymous

I try to stay out of Covid discussions but just wanted to note:

blue22- we actually ARE in the Twilight Zone, if you think about it. The classic episode The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street is very much about what happens when "normality" is disrupted by the unknown and the levels of paranoia and divisiveness that emerge in what previously appeared to be polite, rational society.

Hell, you could even apply the closing narration to Covid Times:

The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices...to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill...and suspicion can destroy...and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own—for the children and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.

Social media and the internet amplify messaging and information to larger online communities of people who self-select to consume info and sources that align with a specific world view. In effect the whole developed world is now Maple Street.

KBL - the reason there aren't stories of survival is because either folks get sick at a mild level and its not worth mentioning, or folks get really sick and are intubated, at which point their chances of survival diminish significantly. From the stats posted above, most of those in the hospital right now are the unvaxxed. If they are able to come off ventilation, then potentially they are still in the hospital or in some form of care still at this point in the US Delta wave. Unless your question is more about why are we only hearing about the vocal unvaxxed Covid deaths and not survival of the unvaxxed in the hospital? See above. Think back to the first wave and how there would be a very few stories here and there of the survival of some people against the odds. The unvaccinated are essentially still playing the first game, with the same hospital survival odds, but with a more virulent strain.

The CDC and WHO datasets are accepted globally as standards and data of record, as would be any other national stats agency for their own Covid measurements. If you question data omission its usually as simple as the figure has not been collected for various reasons - sampling difficulty, cost considerations, or simply there are better health measurements available.

The other issue with the "official" figures is that it is very very easy for anyone - journalist, citizen, podcaster, etc - to take data and misunderstand or misuse the figures, wittingly or unwittingly. I work with a lot of public data and when I publish a public paper (which then becomes the data of record for this sector) I have to have any figures Ive used, and the analysis I have done and written up, checked by two or three data scientists and statisticians. Many times I have misinterpreted a figure where a one word detail made all the difference between what I concluded and what the data was actually saying. Add in the different measurement systems in different countries, different definitions, and different data collection systems (not to mention data collection lag) and trying to cross-assess and compare Covid calculations is extremely challenging without it being your day job.

Aprilgirl - at this point the only thing keeping a lid on Lambda is Delta's competitive ability. I think I read last week that Pfizer said they could get an updated vaccine brewed in 95 days or so (outside of manufacturing time) which is amazing to think about, though let's hope it doesn't come to that point too soon.

KBL

blue22, about this paragraph: I do not understand refusal to wear a mask, getting in other people's space to argue with them about masks, yelling, fighting etc over masks or trying to prevent others from getting the vaccine.. I also don't understand taking veterinary grade medication or anything else not recognized by the general medical community.

I totally agree. I would never do any of these things. I wear a mask, don’t get in people’s faces about anything, or anything else. I am 100% onboard with anyone who wants to get the vaccine.

SondraF, all information is important. I want all the facts, those recovered, those who don’t make it. If I don’t have all information, I don’t have the whole picture.

I posted about a mom who said a judge told her she’s not allowed to see her son unless she gets vaccinated. What about the other people who will be around this boy? No one commented on whether they agree with the judge’s position. As I said, I have no idea if this mother is lying. But let’s pretend she’s telling the truth. Thoughts?

Melbo

KBL — the judges in all custody cases are supposed to consider the best needs of the child, which of course includes health and welfare. In cases where one parent doesn’t want to vaccinate a child and the other does (slightly different scenario I know, but I think it’s relevant) the judges will often give “vaccine custody” to the parent in favor of vaccination because it’s in the best interest of the child.

In this case, the child can’t get the vaccine so it’s up to the parents to help protect the child. I understand your point about “what about everyone else the child is in contact with” — but there is only so much anyone can control. For a mother and child, there would definitely be close, continuing contact that provides ideal conditions for spreading covid. A vaccinated parent would greatly reduce the risks of spreading covid to their child.

This particular case is still early and clearly the information, misinformation, and outrage is flying rampant through the media. However, hypothetically, if one parent adamantly believed in getting vaccinated and doing everything to protect their child and the other wouldn’t get vaccinated, wouldn’t wear masks, and though the whole covid thing was a hoax — then yes I could definitely see a judge make this sort of decision. On the other hand, if one parent could not get vaccinated for legitimate health reasons, and was isolating, masking, and otherwise doing everything in their power to protect themselves and the child from covid — I would expect a different outcome.

One of my best friend’s brothers was against the covid vaccine and his ex wife told him he wouldn’t be able to see his kids until he got the shot. She was doing everything she could to protect her kids, and that included protecting them from him. He was pissed of course, but he got the shot because he didn’t really have any reason not to besides he didn’t think it was necessary

December11

Regarding the judge, show me the court order

KBL

I have clearly stated I don't know if the mother is lying. I think this is a very slippery slope. What's to stop any judge from taking your children because you smoke (second-hand smoke), because you believe in spanking and the judge doesn't (didn't spank my daughter), other parents who don't vaccinate their children (my daughter was vaccinated). I'm sure there are many more examples I can't think of right now.

This story was not about getting her child vaccinated, it was her not being vaccinated.

Very slippery slope. I'm sure people would feel differently if a judge took visitation away for their decisions on how to parent.

Again, this is only if this story is true.

KBL

This is not a rant, but I do want to say I haven’t been sleeping well for quite a long time. I wake up in the middle of the night and just can’t get back to sleep. The last three nights, I kid you not, have been the best sleep I’ve had in ages. My brain has been very busy during the day because of you wonderful ladies. I’m exhausted when I lay my head down.

Melbo

KBL — the other hypotheticals you describe — second hand smoke and spanking — are not life and death matters. Covid is life and death. I hate the whole “slippery slope” argument because it’s just “whataboutism,” and “whataboutism” is almost never good faith arguments or legitimate questions, but is usually media fear mongering.

But to try to get to a legitimate similar scenario — let’s go back to cancer, since we’re all familiar with it. A child is diagnosed with a treatable leukemia. Treatment is chemo, and sucks, but this cancer is curable and the treatment has great outcomes. Parents are divorced and share custody. One parent wants to treat, the other wants to try holistic treatment first. Which parent is the judge going to side with? Do you think the judge would be wrong in that case? If yes — why?

KBL

Melbo, my mother-in-law would beg to differ. She did not smoke but her husband did for many years. I’m not saying he caused her death, but we will never know. My MIL died of lung cancer. Both my parents smoked in the house when I was growing up, and my mother smoked while pregnant. No one knew the dangers back then.Who knows if it caused cancer in three of my five siblings.

Different scenario there with your question. Is the judge going to take away visitation rights of the parent who wants to treat holistically? Probably not. This child needs his mother. The mental damage that can be caused to her son by not allowing her to be with him may be great.

illimae

KBL, if you have the Calm app on your phone, try listening to a sleep story, the one of John McEnroe reading “the rules of tennis” works for me every time 🙂

Melbo

again though — in my scenario leukemia is not easily transmitted by touch and contact, so in the leukemia scenario the mother is not an imminent danger to the child. In the covid scenario the mother is. And while mental damage should be considered for sure, it’s always going to be secondary to actual life and death.

As for the MIL with cancer living with a smoker — I would point out that it was her choice, as an adult, to continue living with him. Obviously it’s never that simple — but as an adult she did have the choice to leave over smoking. Or try to set boundaries on where the smoking would be okay (outside in porch for example) and then leave of those boundaries weren’t respected. A child in those circumstances has no choice. Again I will acknowledge that those types of choices are often impossible with a thousand different factors influencing them — but the choice did exist.

Also, since her generation didn’t understand the dangers of smoking it’s not really an apt comparison. How would you feel now if you saw a similar situation with your grandchildren

KBL

I would not like it at all if my child smoked around my grandchild, but, sadly, I don't have control. Thankfully, she doesn't smoke. I also don't want her to spank, as I disciplined without it, but that's not my choice either. I do not ask her.

The problem with the scenario you state is that the child, unless living in a bubble, will be more around other adults and children who are not vaccinated, school, stores, restaurants. Maybe Grandma and Grandpa aren't vaccinated. How about siblings, I don't think he has any, unless they're step. It's impossible to be kept safe from the world in total.

I do appreciate the open discussion. I don't think the issues we feel will ever be resolved. If this judge does it and it is allowed to be carried out, it should be carried out evenly across the board. All parents not vaccinated must move away from their children. Our society is already messy. The mental health issues could be even worse.

Mae, thank you for the suggestion. I will look it up.

Melbo

back to the specific scenario where other people might not be vaccinated — like grandparents, friends, etc… in those circumstances it’s still up to the parent to decide whether the child will be around them. I’m sure thousands of families have had to make that very calculation —- grandparents not vaccinated? Kids can’t visit. Family reunion with half the adults not vaccinated? They don’t attend. Schools not requiring teachers to be vaccinated — well that’s where it starts getting really complicated for parents.

And that brings us right back to the start of it — because if more of the vaccine hesitant would choose the vaccine, the country/world would reach herd immunity faster, and fewer people would be put into these impossible situations.

I feel like I can’t say it enough: covid is life and death. It is not equivalent to second hand smoke or spanking. And the mental health issues are real and valid — but herd immunity also resolves a lot of those issues, while keeping the maximum number of people alive.

Anonymous

well KBL I'm glad you feel opening this thread has been helpful to you

Just want to say I went one layer deeper into the story on the Alabama doctor who made the FB post about not treating the unvaccinated.

There was a link to the local newspaper in the NBC news story.

https://www.al.com/news/2021/08/alabama-doctor-says-he-wont-treat-unvaccinated-people-covid-is-miserable-way-to-die.html

So, this sounds more like real concern for his patients rather than a punitive measure. If this story is true, since there is still no further verification other than the FB post -

- he sent a letter notifying them inadvance. It isn't a denial of emergency care to someone who is already sick with COVID19

- he set a deadline of October 21st and offered to transfer records to another doctor

- he explained his reasoning in a factual and compassionate way

- he claims that three patients immediately responded and asked where to get the vaccine

So I don't actually disapprove of this. He is trying to use his power and the trust his patients have in him to sway their decision making - give them a wake up call, basically. Not a bad thing and seemingly it worked for some already

Piggy99

For those who are interested: a non-CDC, non-WHO overview of adverse events from the Pfizer vaccine based on a large population study in Israel (not from the clinical trial, but from real-world use). They look at the additional risk for several categories of side effects, and compare them with the additional risk for the same side effects from Coronavirus infection. Israel does extensive Covid testing, and they use exclusively the Pfizer vaccine, so it's probably one of the most solid real-world studies you can get. The New England Journal of Medicine is also the most prestigious medical publication I'm aware of.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

The follow-up is relatively short, so this will not allay the concerns about side effects that may show up far in the future. However, none of the vaccines used over the last century has resulted in late-developing side effects (most develop in 8 weeks or less), and there is no scientific reason that mRNA vaccines, which are eliminated from the body in a matter of days, would be any different.

KBL

Olma, I sure hope this rant thread is helpful to more than just me. I created it so we could all post how we feel, not just me. I’m listening to all sides with an open heart. Will others’ opinions sway my decision? I don’t know.

exbrnxgrl

piggy99,

Thank you for the study. I made your link live for easier access:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

Although I am a great proponent of researching and fact finding, the Covid19 situation is a global pandemic, and as such, we simply don’t have the luxury to see how vaccines effect every possible medical condition or treatment modalities over the next 2,5 or 10 years. I wish it was possible, but it simply is not. The Israeli study in the NEJM is easy to read and certainly supports the safety of vaccines for Covid19. Does it come with any promises or guarantees for you as an individual? No, of course not! Getting Covid19 under control is a communal effort. Do I have concerns over the vaccine and my health? Not really. I understand how MRNA works, I read research from reliable sources and stay away from anecdotes and junk science. Science is not perfect and things change as we learn more. That’s how science works.

Beesie

KBL, you have asked a number of times for information about survival and questioned why the only stories in the media are about those who are unvaccinated who die of Covid. What about those who survive?

Honestly, I don't understand how that is relevant. Yes, most people who have come down with Covid since the start of the pandemic, the majority of whom have been unvaccinated over these 20+ months, have survived. Does that make the deaths less concerning? Does that mean we should be less cautious?

Since all of us here have breast cancer, of various Stages, how would this same information apply to breast cancer? Of people diagnosed with breast cancer today, in all likelihood approximately 70% will survive. Is that relevant to those who will develop mets? Does that make breast cancer any less serious as a potentially fatal disease? Despite the relatively high survival rate, since no one can say who will survive and who won't, doesn't that mean that everyone needs to be treated? And if there was a vaccine that could stop breast cancer from ever developing or virtually ensure that it will be survivable if it does develop, isn't that a vaccine that would rightfully be recommended for every woman?

Here is some information I just pulled today from the WHO. This chart does not split out vaccinated vs. unvaccinated, so this may not answer your question, but it does provide some high level figures about survival and mortality rates of this pandemic. The way the chart presents on the WHO site, the first two lines are 'World" and "USA". Since many of us posting here are Canadian (I am), I've added "Canada" as a third line.

Worldwide there have been over 4.5 million deaths from COVID, out of almost 217 million cases. 18.6 million of those cases remain unresolved. Therefore the mortality rate of resolved cases (Total Recovered + Total Deaths) is a measly 2.3%. In the U.S., it's even lower, at 2.1%. Nevertheless, 4.5 million people have died worldwide and over 650,000 people have died in the U.S.. In the U.S., the death rate is 1 out of every 509 people.

So which figure is more relevant to the vaccine question? The low mortality rate, or the fact that in the U.S., the rate of infection is 1 in every 8 people and the rate of death is 1 in every 509 people? To me, there is no question. If the vaccine reduces my chances of being that 1 person in 509 (or in Canada, 1 in 1,417) by 90%, I'm taking that vaccine. And I did, as soon as it was available to me.

KBL

Thank you, Beesie. I will look this over as well.

I will be taking a break for the rest of the day. I have a sweet husband who has asked me to get off my phone for a while and spend some time with him.

wrenn

KBL, What's it going to take? I feel like you will be spinning your wheels as you have likely been doing since the beginning of the pandemic and this can't be good for your well being. I wonder if looking at why you don't want to trust experts instead of looking for anecdotes to support your mistrust will be more fruitful.

Enjoy your day.

Teedoff

Bottom line. Those of us who are Stage 4 will eventually die of breast cancer unless the proverbial bus or Covid or something else gets us first. I would prefer old age from natural causes, but that is most likely not in the cards. What I don't want is to increase chances of an earlier demise by coming into contact with unvaccinated individuals. That means I must stay in the bubble and live less of a life than I might otherwise. Unvaccinated people don't come with a warning label and neither do those most at risk. Our risk would be lessened if most people were vaccinated. You can't be dragged off and vaccinated against your will. I just wish I knew how to avoid you without hiding or wearing a Hazmat suit (sarcasm intended). Yes I am bitter!

GoldensRBest

I was admitted to the hospital with Covid breakthrough on August 2, discharged on August 5. Was severely neutropenic. Received both Pfizer vaccines in February. Although I have theoretically recovered, I’m thinkin I will be a long hauler for fatigue. It is awful. Wake up exhausted and spend the rest of the day that way. My MO said Ibrance is like a double whammy. Was told if I hadn’t been vaccinated, I likely would have ended up on a ventilator. This is serious stuff dear friends. I don’t wish it on anyone.

AliceBastable

What we don't know yet is the overall long-range issues of people who have gotten Covid and haven't died YET. There has been enough information on "long Covid" to know that there can be major health issues. It's just too soon to know if those issues will resolve in each patient over time, or if a certain percentage will develop long-term health problems, and if so, will those problems lead to early deaths. It may be too early for anyone to say "I had Covid and got over it just fine" with no guarantee that it won't return to bite them in the ass.

It's very difficult to believe people are discussing the topic in a rational, good faith manner, when Person A asks a question, Person B (and sometimes C and D) answer the question, then Person A comes back with a totally unrelated follow-up question as though it's a "gotcha," when it's actually not only moving the goalposts, but putting them in a different stadium. Can anyone be so afraid of facts that they have to keep moving the target?

Anonymous

Yes, the possibility of getting COVID and having to interrupt the cancer treatment that is saving my life was a big part of my decisionmaking process re the vaccine..

When I was 25 I thought I was invincible. Now I know very well that I am not.

I *am* afraid of vaccine side effects, I care about freedom, and I don't trust the government very much. But it still seemed like getting the COVID vaccine was the best option for me

exbrnxgrl

Alice,

I agree with your second paragraph. Ultimately, I am not sure if all the rational discussion in the world, all the references to reliable sources ( which some folks have decided are not reliable) will change anyone’s mind but if we hope to tamp down the COVID beast we have to keep trying. Asking questions which are unanswerable i.e. what will happen to me in 5 years?, how does the vaccine react to every known disease and every possible course of tx, etc, is pointless in that we don’t have the luxury to wait that long. However, information that is currently available strongly points to the fact that the vaccines are safe for the vast majority who have received them. Are they 100% safe for everyone? The answer is no, we can’t even guarantee that with aspirin or Tylenol. So we have to keep plugging away with information vs misinformation, rumors, and unverified speculation. Yes, it is a bit tiresome and I grow a bit more frustrated each day but I will keep trying to point those with doubts to science that that is legitimate but not immutable. It is tempting to throw my hands in the air and give up but then I remember my community and know that I take this position not just for myself but for the greater good.

Anonymous

https://www.facebook.com/343035347444/posts/10159777081622445/?d=n

This man died from a treatable but acute condition , waiting for an icu bed in Texas - ICU beds all taken and all area (including nearby states ) overwhelmed with Covid patients . This death was preventable, caused by the Pandemic which rages on due to the lack of enough vaccinated people. He fought in Afghanistan but was killed by the horrific reality of this pandemic that we can eradicate with herd immunity .

KBL

I’m back for a few minutes. I am going to remove myself from the conversation. It’s not that I won’t be reading along. I want this to be a rant page, and it seems my asking different questions may be an issue for some.

Thank you for being respectful to me.

wrenn

I think it's great to ask questions. My "issue" as you put it comes from you seeming to not hear the answers.