What is forgiveness?

leaf · July 2011

I am not asking this for religious reasons. I am not a religious person; I am agnostic.

Some people with PTSD or PTSD-like symptoms had traumas that are a 'freak of nature' - such as by an earthquake, or breast cancer or a freak accident. Some people have traumas that are caused by a specific person, but not intentional (such as friendly fire or perhaps painful medical procedures, assuming they did not intend to cause pain.) Some people have traumas that are caused by specific people that *are* intentional, such as terrorism or abuse.

I have had several traumas during my life, in each category, as most people have. (I know not everyone develops PTSD.) I do know that an experience is much less likely to cause trauma if the 'trauma inflictor' tries to make some emotional connection with you, verifies it may be painful, and it is not intentional.

I have people send me CDs about forgiveness (even though they didn't even know what happened, or whether the 'trauma inflictor' acknowledged the trauma, let alone had remorse.) They point out that in the Hutu/Tutsi conflict, there were women who 'forgave' the killing of their husband, and have daily social interactions with the killer, who was in their village.

For me, I find it difficult when someone tells me I should forgive someone, especially if they don't know what happened, my age at the time, or whether there was any acknowledgement or remorse by the other party.

The way I have handled this is to create distance between myself and the other party. The other party is now deceased. I definitely did *not* find it helpful to be told I needed to forgive the other party.

Some people claim that forgiveness involves at least the acknowledgment of the 'inflictor' that they caused trauma of some kind.

What is forgiveness? When a person has forgiven someone (particularly a specific person), what has happened between the two parties? Is forgiveness a religious question? Is it an ethical one? If one has PTSD, or near-PTSD about a situation, obviously its difficult to 'forget' the incidence. I don't even know what forgiveness means.

barbe1958 · July 2011

You are treading a very fine line. There is a HUGE difference between forgiveness and forgetting. You are not asked to forget. Okay, so you still get to own the pain from that person. You still re-live the experience a million times over in your head and heart and it doesn't get easier. That is such a heavy box to carry with you every day in everything you do. Every word you say and hear is bounced off that box first to see how it interacts with what you think you are hearing. Thinkof it like a mirror. You have to carry that mirror with you everywhere. But, it can also be used to bounce people away by sending their reflection back. That keeps you protected. Am I making sense?

So, you have to figure out if it's protection from the fear of something new being able to hurt you. Or is it really the original box that is hurting you and holding you back. Those are two way different issues. In one, the fear is holding you back from growing and moving on. You don't need to forgive OR forget to be able to do this. You just need to leave that box in 'the attic' and visit it only when you want to relieve that pain again.

If it's still the original box that is holding you back, you need to go into your 'attic' and open each and every box and really look at what is in each box. Determine if you want that box to stay in the attic. Do you want to hold onto that pain incase you need it to remind you never to get into that kind of a situation again, or allow someone to be that close to you? Or is is now small enough from rotting away all these years that you can put it at the curb for the garbage truck to pick up. Some boxes you will be able to let go off, some you won't.

Everytime you have the strength to go up 'in the attic' you will be able to get rid of another box or two until you are only saving the memories that you WANT to save. Everytime you can leave a box at the curb, it's forgiveness. NOT forgetness - no one is asking you to forget. Remember that.

I hope this helps you, even if in a very small way, or even if I gave you a chuckle.

Much love, sweetie!

covertanjou · July 2011

Barbe, what a beautiful and wise response.

Leaf, when some people hurt the "core" of you, it is very difficult to forgive. There are certain people who have caused me unbelievable and life-changing pain. I have had to work very hard at forgiving them--and am still working on it. I do not and have not forgiven them because I think they have earned it. I have forgiven them because I have learned that living with the pain they have caused me, and being "stuck" in the anger and hurt they have caused me, keeps me in a state of almost constant pain and anger. That does make sense?

As Barbe said, forgiving or working through the pain does not mean forgetting. To use Barbe's analogy, I sometimes "visit" the suitcases in the attic, and deal with infinitsimal parts of that suitcase until I can store it away for long periods of time. When certain things happen to make me remember once again the pain certain people have caused me, I need to once again open up the suitcase and deal with as much as I can.

Leaf, unfortunately, when people really, really hurt you, you never get over it. You can have moments when you can "store it away" and moments when you have to deal with it once again.

Forgiveness is a process--a lifelong process. I still struggle to forgive, but I think it is worth doing for YOU. Please PM me if you wish.

ETA as you can see from my post, I still struggle, but the process of forgiving is worth it.

((((HUGS)))))

jancie · July 2011

I won't dwelve into particulars but I have had the same conversations with myself and others over the years.

I simply can't forgive someone that does something so malicious, evil, etc. to me and I am talking about a MAJOR EVENT. Little stuff just rolls off my back.

I have found out for myself that I don't have to forgive someone especially if they don't ask for it, they have no remorse and they deny their actions. What I have to do is to let go of the anger and that I have been able to do. I am no longer angry about the situations - I am numb to them.

I also don't believe that you have to hang around someone just because they are family. Those that have hurt me - I have pushed them away - I don't see them, I don't talk to them, I have them on total ignore and I am ok with that.

The anger is what was destroying me. It took me years to get rid of the anger - it wasn't something that happened overnight. No longer are the insides eating me up.

I chose to get rid of toxic people out of my life even if they are relatives and I am so much better off for being able to do this.

This is just my humble opinion.

Barbe - I love your analogy.

ICanDoThis · July 2011

Thank you, Barbie, for a profound way of expressing it.

For me, forgiveness is a one-person experience. It doesn't matter whether the original "perpatrator" is involved in the discussion or not. It's about us. How much damage are we going to allow that person to continue to do to us?

For me, some of the boxes in the attic were so big that they were causing the attic floor to sag. And I was hitting my head on the bumps that this caused in the ceiling of my life. Forgiving shrank the boxes, and opened up my rooms. And enabled more light and love to come in.

What made treatment so hard for me, and, I believe, for you too, since I have been reading and resonating to your posts for years here, was the callousness and total unawareness of how hard the constant screw-ups and overlooking and forgetting was.

Today, I try not to go there. And it is better. I went to therapy for a goodly while, and put the old stuff back into their shrunken boxes. And I have learned some things about managing myself when I find myself in a medical situation. I don't let the stuff get so out of control anymore.

I am sorry that this is still hurting you.

(((Leaf)))

Dilly · July 2011

Leaf, I read your post and thought I was talking to myself... for some things there will never be anything close to an offender who owns their part of the problem, or is deceased and beyond reconciliation. Barb, Mary, and Jancie have given some eloquent advice. Some things just aren't worth packing around any more. For me, for example, I carry a fairly large & visible scar, intentionally inflicted when I was 2 1/2, and since no one ever apologized, I just figured that without clear instructions & a burning bush, I could be unforgiving until the scar faded. Only in the last two years, and I'm 65, has the scar become almost unnoticable. I wonder if I'd just "forgiven" sooner if the visible reminder might have faded faster. In any event, for the last couple decades I just don't want to carry around the baggage of anger anymore, and have taken to an old KY moonshiner's advice: "Forgive easily, but remember the bast*%#@' name." By letting go of my frustration caused by the "intentional hurt" there has been more room in my life for better things.

When people- your friends - tell you that you "should" do something, they may have your best interests at heart, but their delivery is lacking. Barbe's analogy is spot-on, and she presented it as a suggestion rather than an ought-to -- much easier to appreciate the wisdom of her words, yes?

Thanks Leaf, for bringing up this sore subject, it's one of my struggles.

MRDRN · July 2011

wow, I am literally bawling as I am reading this!!! Thanks for the question, thanks for responses, that is ALL I can type right now...

bedo · July 2011

The first time I was told that I "needed to forgive" I thought, what are you NUTS???? What that person did was wrong. I finally came to the conclusion that I don't have to think that what they did was "OK or "right"" . I don't even need an apology. The person is deceased. I have come to realize that the person was mentally ill. Forgiveness did not mean that I had to "like" the person, be their friend, or even see them. Just to realize that they were a very damaged person who did what they did for that reason. I felt some compassion for them (I know, I know)

Bren-2007 · July 2011

((( Leaf ))) I find that the passage of time helps. I don't know if I can forgive the more grievous things that have happened to me. Maybe what I do have is acceptance. I accept that they happened and I can't change that fact. I don't feel that I need to forgive everything that happens to me. It depends on the circumstances. If it's someone I love dearly, then I work towards healing with that person. If I have been wronged by someone to the point that I can't forgive, I just try to move on as best I can. And love the people I can all the more.

hugs,

Bren

leaf · July 2011

Thank you all for your responses.

Icandothis: my horrible wire insertion over 5 years ago was only the key that opened up the can of worms (to mix metaphors).

I went into PTSD-like mode when I was diagnosed, which for me meant that I act like I'm having trouble breathing and cringing, particularly when I was seeing a doctor. I had no idea why. I was fully intellectually conscious that the doctor was not 'out to hurt me'. I am very aware that the person in the present poses no harm to me, but that's not always what my nervous system and muscles say. Now, I really am much better than I was 5 years ago, and I continue to see my therapist. But sometimes I cringe when my therapist moves her hands. I have no idea why.

My therapist thought my trouble breathing was probably because I was a <26 week preemie (over 50 years ago). When trauma starts that young, you obviously can't verbalize anything.

I went from there to a dysfunctional home, as many people do. Another trauma (I can only remember one incident) was when I was about 4 or 5.

I know that the deceased person involved may have had childhood trauma in his life, and maybe adult trauma too in the army.

I know others have MUCH worse trauma. I read a recent article about the real Horse Whisperer http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14122445 . How can anyone have a normal life if their parent sends them birthday cards that threaten to kill them at age 18? I personally think its a miracle he didn't become a mass murderer. (I want to assure you that I didn't become a mass murderer. Smile Thank goodness.)

But I am still curious. When the Horse Whisperer says he wrote his dad and told him he still loved him, how does he describe that feeling? Is forgiveness when you stop feeling angry, and just accept that's what happened?

AnnNYC · July 2011

leaf, I think you're exactly right, forgiveness is "when you stop feeling angry, and just accept that's what happened."

It really fits with Barbe's beautiful metaphor about the box.

I remember asking a therapist (20 years ago) about feeling that I couldn't "forgive" (abuse in childhood) -- she had such a lovely, calm, receptive way about her (which in itself was very healing) -- she said, "I think forgiveness is a religious idea. I don't have anything to say about religious ideas. My work is to help you see how the painful things you try to keep out of your consciousness are still hurting you, and to help you not to be unconciously controlled by that pain." You know, exactly the work you are doing. I think as we gain mastery over those experiences, eventually our own strength is what matters, we eventually feel less pain and anger -- or are able to fill our lives with better feelings from things we do for ourselves -- and the receding of the pain and anger may allow some feeling of acceptance or "forgiveness" -- or just relief that we have created a life that is not so controlled by that-person-and-what-they-did.

Short version -- we work on other stuff, and "forgiveness" may happen, or may not. But directly "working on forgiveness" to me seems like a stumbling block.

Anonymous · July 2011

leaf- Having experienced some of the same traumas you mentioned forgiveness was something I struggled with, too. I finally realized by not forgiving those who had wronged me I was giving them so much more- power over me and how I felt about the world and myself. Yet, I still struggled with forgiveness because I associated it with condoning what they had done like giving them a free pass. What worked for me was forgiving the child they once were. Picturing them as a child, who had probably had their own traumas inflicted on them, some how made it easier to let it go and move on.

leaf · July 2011

Yes, Ann, I think you're right. Forgiveness before recognizing your feelings is like putting the cart before the horse. Directly working on forgiveness is probably not a great direct goal for me right now because I have trouble recognizing how I feel. It was only when I re-started therapy 5 years ago that I found out the incident at age 4 or 5 could be important (even though I had therapy for over 20 years before that - my first therapist did not want to go there. She did help in other ways though.)

I think you're on to something too, Kate. The person involved had problems of his own. I think he made poor choices, but it was the attitude of the society in which he grew up.

But, regardless, I don't think its helpful to tell someone that they need to forgive someone else.

Thank you all so much for your responses. It has really helped me.

alamik · July 2011

Leaf~~~ Forgiveness for me has generally always been fairly easy. But there have been times that I have lived through so much cruelty and abuse at the hands of another person who claimed to love me. This could not be forgiven so easily. These were things that caused me nightmares and terrors. Made me not be able to trust anyone or anything. My pain caused me to build walls. Walls that held in anger, humiliation, the ugliness of events, and the shame that I put on mayself through self blame that I never wanted anyone to see. But those walls never felt safe either. That fortress was only a reminder of the way my soul had splintered into a million pieces and I was no longer whole. I could never find a way to put the pieces of my life back together because I couldn't see through all the anger and pain.

My walls may have kept some people out but it also imprisoned me inside. It wasn't fair that I should be in a prison of my own making and not allow myself a chance to find happiness and it wasn't fair that I wasn't allowing myself to live. I mean really live. I had to tear those walls down, brick by brick. All by myself. Sometimes carefully, and sometimes kicking them and screaming and throwing them. But by doing this, I realized that I didn't have to be self limiting and that I deserved much more. But in my case, I couldn't do that until I could forgive the person who's cruelty and derranged behavior basically handed me the building plans for my fortress. I couldn't move on when I had so much toxicity in my heart. I had to forgive for ME!!! It had nothing to do with him. In fact, I never even told him and honestly don't think he needs to know. The forgiveness was for me!!! But it was so hard..... and then I forgave myself as well for allowing him to diminish me.

After forgiving him, I felt better. The nightmares stopped. The negativity and hatred were gone and I could be the wife, parent, and person that I wanted to be and that my family needed me to be. I could live and love without holding nothing back. I deserved better and so did my family. Forgiving that man made my life better, fuller, and richer. Would my forgiveness mean anything to him if he knew? I don't care!! He is running from demons of his own making.

Sometimes forgiveness isn't for the ones that have harmed us, sometimes forgiveness just has to be for us! I am sending you calming and gentle wishes.

leaf · July 2011

Thank you for your ideas. I understand that dwelling on trauma can be very detrimental psychologically. We might all want these traumas and unfair situations to disappear. But I bet we learn something from our traumas and struggles.

Of course, everyone builds defences against painful situations.

Before you were able to forgive the perpetrator, I bet you had to recognize the 'toxic' feelings you had. You had to recognize you were in a situation that you wanted to change, and you needed to recognize the scope of your feelings. Those 'toxic' feelings were undoubtedly appropriate at the time the incident happened. I bet you felt angry or scared or something like that when the trauma occured. Aren't those feelings appropriate for the situation?

I wonder if the Horse Whisperer wrote his father to say that he (the Horse Whisperer) loved his father because a) its expected from society and/or 2) This might placate the father and keep the father from threatening or actually killing him. Apparently, his mother may have been a more normal person, and that influence helped him while she was alive.

Does forgiveness involve trying to help 'heal' the perpetrator by kindness?

barbe1958 · July 2011

Leaf, don't go there.

You don't have to heal the perpetrator. You don't even have to like him. You don't even have to admit he exists except in your nightmare. AND you CAN dwell in the situation as long as you need to. You may need to relive some of those emotions and feelings to validate the pain you feel today. That's okay. There is no time limit on all this.

What you need to try to do is disconnect the 'wire' that transmits the pain to your heart. Try to find that part of you that allows you to feel this pain and then unscrew that dial. Do NOT let that pain flow through that wire EVER again. So, you know the pain. You know the dial it's connected to, that gives you the pain. Now you have to step back and say "Okay, I see the pain trying to come through, but the wire is not connected anymore. It doesn't mean the pain is not there, it just means I won't feel it ever again".

You can do this.

Forget about healing someone else. They may never change. They probably don't even see the situation the same way you do. It would blow your mind if you knew that they thought so little of the issue at hand!!!!

Think of you. By healing you, you take away the power of the other man to hurt you.

He is guilty, not you.

Much love,

jancie · July 2011

Barbe - I just love your response. WOW - you are so eloquent with words and seem to be able to write down exactly what I am feeling at times but can't find the words to express myself.

covertanjou · July 2011

Barbe, what an amazing response, again. You are an amazing woman.

Alamik, your post really shows the pain you have gone through and the strength you have. (((HUGS)))

All of you women here are amazing.

Leaf, I have not and will not try to heal the perpetuator. I owe that person/people NOTHING! I have had to deal with the pain they have caused me. As Alamik so eloquently wrote, forgiveness is for YOU, not the person who hurt you. Let's be honest, anyone who has been abused feels guilt. We all at one point or another blame ourselves. I know I did. It took me years to shut off the tape recorder in my head telling me I deserved it or that I was worthless or ....other words that I cannot state here. I learned to tell that voice, "SHUT UP!" After many years, that voice has almost, almost disappeared.

It is a process, Leaf. Some years, months, days, hours, minutes are better than others. When you have been deeply wounded, you are left with a scab. When something happens to rip off that scab (feeling afraid, helpless, hurt, etc) the scab comes off, and we are in pain again. It does get better, but you need to protect yourself. Do not see or at least put distance (emotional and physical) between yourself and those who have or can hurt you. Do not blame yourself --I know it is easier said than done.

This thread shows how many of us have been hurt and damaged by abuse. You are not alone. And Leaf, it does get better.

((((HUGS))) to you and all the women here.

leaf · July 2011

Well, the man is now deceased, so there is no possibility of changing him.

I have known for years he never recognized that he did anything wrong. (He said this some 30 years ago, about 20 years after the incident.) He probably wouldn't even remember the incident, even shortly after the incident when I was 4 or 5. I questioned my therapist if it was enough to cause a PTSD-like syndrome; she said yes, and people who have multiple traumas are more susceptible to getting PTSD. It never occurred to me at age 4 or 5 to ask anyone else about it: I guess that shows how much confidence I had in help. I never asked him specifically about it (when I was an adult) because I knew he didn't have the capability to look at himself and explore.

Yes, I have made huge walls for myself. Its often difficult for me to verbalize how I feel. I don't think my family was into helping the children conceptualize what their feelings were.

I think its not helpful for *anyone* to tell someone else they should forgive another. Well, maybe that's not true. When you see cultural strife that has been going on for decades, centuries, thousands of years, such as Palastine/Israel, Hutu/Tutsi, Ireland, religious warfare..but we aren't responsible for what our ancestors did.

But I don't think its helpful for someone to tell you to forgive someone else if they don't even know what happened. That makes it feel like they're telling you that they don't want to hear or deal with your emotions. If they don't want to deal, that's their choice. But you're still stuck with your situation. Maybe its analogous to the great thread "Be positive......Shut up!!!!" http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/5/topic/703925?page=1

I guess I'm rambling on....

covertanjou · July 2011

Leaf, No one, absolutely no one, has the right to tell you to forgive. I hope that is not what came across from my post? You do not have to EVER forgive the person who hurt you. You do need to forgive yourself and allow yourself to feel what you feel.

If people tell you you HAVE to forgive, they are wrong. As the victim-- I hate that word, but you know what I mean--YOU and only YOU can decide to forgive. My thoughts are that you are allowed to feel what you feel. You may need to accept that there is always a part of you that will be angry. That's okay. Just don't turn the anger against yourself. My therapist made me visualize seeing and feeling the little child that was hurt. She taught me how to take her into my arms and love her. I learned to protect her and love her. It was so hard to do, but even today, when certain feelings rush back at me, I go back to her, and tell her she is safe. I have learned that although certain things bring me back, that I am safe now. I am strong now. I can defend myself now. I am not that little girl.

Please forgive me if I am rambling -- I wish I could take away your hurt.

((((HUGS))))

barbe1958 · July 2011

Ah, the fact that he is deceased means you will never have the opportunity to tell him so many things. How much he hurt you, how long you have hurt, how you could never truly trust anyone, how he caused an absolute mountain of fear and stress in your life. He opened a Pandora's Box. Your life was not the way you wanted to live. You look back and see how much of what he did affected every decision and relationship in your entire life.

You can't tell him all that. But guess what. Now he knows. He is suffering more now, because he DOES see it all now. I know you said you're an agnostic, but I'm not. The first thing he had to do when he met his God was forgive himself for what he has done to you. But now he must face and relive what he did to hurt such a tiny, vulnerable soul, so innocent and pure. Trust me, God will have wreaked his justice.

But now you have to deal with the fact that you will never have another chance to live your younger life without fear. That chance will only come when you, yourself pass on. That passing will release the final tie to the incident that has haunted you. Am I suggesting suicide? Absolutely NOT! I am just saying that even with all the devils you have faced in your life, there are still devils out there that can harm you. Until you are no more. All will not be perfect as you make your adult decisions and start your changes. Don't let a setback stop you from growing.

You may not be able to live your young life again, but don't give him any more power over your future. You DO have a chance to have a wonderful 'rest of your life'!!! How do YOU want to spend your golden years? What do YOU want to experience and see and feel? YOU are in control now. It may not feel like it, but maybe that's why you're asking the question. It's scary to be in control. But trust me, you can't do worse than the way you started your life!!

Much love,

rosemary-b · July 2011

Wow this is hard I have read this thread several times and have had a hard time knowing how to put my feelings in words.Forgiveness is always a choice but I am grateful to the person who said I should work on it. That is what she said and that is what I had to do, work on it. it wasn't easy because you have to find words for something that happened when you were little that a little child does not have words for and at least in my case I tried very hard to forget.

I just didn't want to drag that person around with me any more.

It has taken a long time but now when I think about him mostly I am sad. sad that he did the things he did and sad that I could never have a good relationship with him.

Also what happened to me was just a part of living in a home with 2 alchoholic parents. They never abused me , they were just neglectful but I know they did the best they could being who they were. You can't ask a fish to fly.

Bren-2007 · July 2011

(( Leaf )) thinking of you today. Thank you for starting this thread, even though it was painful for you. I've learned lots by reading what everyone has written. For me, forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior. It's a way to heal myself. Some things are unforgivable though .. and those I just have to live with and try to move on. It's not easy and I never forget what happened. Even though those events changed me forever, they don't have power over me anymore. Like Mary wrote, I have the power to protect the child within me now. And the grownup as well.

hugs to you,

Bren

Anonymous · July 2011

barbe- If these posts are any indication you have a much needed amazing book in your head that needs to be written. This is obviously a subject many of us have struggled with- too many, unfortunately. I think you summed up my own struggles perfectly when you said "you will never have another chance to live your younger life without fear". I think harder than perhaps the abuse itself is the abusers inability to see how they have changed the person you were supposed to be. So I grieve not because of the act itself but for the path I never took. I loved what you said, though, about disconnecting the wire. It was a perfect description of dealing with the memories but letting go of the hurt.

barbe1958 · July 2011

I will never have a happy childhood. I can never take back the bruises and trust an adult again. I can never enjoy sex without thinking I'm paying for something. I can never trust someone who is supposed to love me to keep me safe.

My parents have passed. I will never know the true love of a Mother. I will never be able to trust a Father.

Anonymous · July 2011

barbe- But I know your children will and the cycle is broken. (((hugs)))

VSM · July 2011

Thank you ladies for the healing moments you have given me this morning. Yes, so many of us live with pain from the past that continues into the present. Forgiveness... Leaf, I'm not exactly sure what forgiveness is either, BUT there was something in me (as a child) that was able to use the abuse of adults to help other kids. I remember being amazed at how many kids came out of the woodwork, right in my path, reaching out for help. They didn't know my situation and I never spoke of it to anyone until those individual children would cry out to me, and together we could find the strength to work through the pain and anger; find the confidence to keep on growing-grow with age, and grow in strength as individuals trying to get through life. Helping others through their pain helped me through mine, and find a peace--maybe that's forgiveness.

Leaf, you help many others here on this discussion board through their pain. I hope you also find peace, strength, and growth for yourself in doing so.

And Kate's right Barbe!

Sublimis · July 2011

This is a difficult subject. Forgiveness is hard. I have struggled with this for quite a while. I used to think that when I forgave someone who had wronged me it meant that everything had to be hunky-dory. Now I know it doesn't. I don't have to hang out with that person or call them every Sunday. I also made the mistake of wanting validation. I tired that route and when the person wouldn't admit what they did claiming it didn't happen or they didn't remember, it only angered me further. It was harder for me to forgive the people closest to me. The one's who were supposed to protect me instead of abuse me. I read a great book that helped me out a lot, http://www.littlemadhouseontheprairie.com The woman who wrote the book's childhood was very similiar to mine, even if it was in a different time. I also saw a counselor who specialized in PTSD and did some cognitive behavioral therapy. When I think of the "bad" things, I immediately think of something "good" to try and balance it out. Sometimes I will have negative thoughts about actions or people and I have to remind myself that I forgave them. It is the process of changing the way I perceive things. I had to stop looking at the wrong doers as villians and myself as a victim, to see them as people. I had to start with my childhood, because many of the things I went through wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't already have been "broken". I find it much harder to forgive people I know. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, I don't know some of the people who have hurt me. In this case I don't see a need to forgive, just a need to come to terms with the trauma. There are sick people out there. That is a fact. The only thing I can do is live and learn and make damn sure I don't send my children out into the world too early and as damaged goods.

Good luck to you all on your journey. I hope you can find some peace amongst the chaos.

Sub

barbe1958 · July 2011

Sub, I loved how you said you were 'broken'. I always thought of living on the "Island of Mis-fit Toys". There is a saying that I HATE:

As a child you are a victim; as an adult you are a volunteer.

Remember, I HATE that expression. It makes it sound like we asked for it. But, I did have a therapist recently tell me that 'bad' people can 'smell' our weakness, they feed off it and go in for the kill. Kind of like vampires.

moogie · July 2011

This is such a meaningful thread and I have had some difficult events lately which had me circling this topic several times a day. I have someone in my life who has been very damaging to myself and others----and who now needs our care. We have risen to the occasion more for our own selves, since walking away would contribute to a bigger tragedy.

How do you forgive someone who is very hostile and destructive? Sometimes I think the best I can do is find some small way to connect with this person, even if it is only to have a meaningless conversation about a tv show we both like--- since connecting with someone like this at all given the relationship history, is its own forgiveness.

I think it takes a lifetime to learn how to really do this.

barbe1958 · July 2011

When my Dad was dying of lung cancer I would visit him but then he would ask me to leave the room because I 'gave off too much energy'. I was introduced to his home-care nurse as "This is my daughter the mouth." Thanks Dad. But, he's dead and I'm not. I don't have to live my future like my past was directing me to. I can re-invent myself and live a different way. If I chose. And I do.

What is forgiveness?

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