What is forgiveness?

leaf

Yes, moogie, it makes it hard.  There are, of course, no right choices for everyone, only the right choices for you.  These are very difficult choices.  You often have to make these choices on the spur of the moment, knowing there is a lot of conflict within you.

I really like your statement - it takes a lifetime to really learn how to do this.  Some of us need a lot more help than others.

Gad, barbe.  What an awful thing for your Dad to say.  I'm so glad you've had the strength and resources to re-invent yourself.  Thank goodness you have!  

I guess for some of us, the 'rebellious' part of us says 'I can choose to live my own way and not by your rules.'

Just think where we'd be if we didn't try to look inside ourselves to see what has gone on.  No matter what part of life we are in.

Sublimis

Barbe - You are exactly right.  Some creeps prey on people who have been victimized.  And your therapist is right, at some point we have to decide whether to remain locked in that role or to set ourselves free.  I had someone tell me a couple of years ago that I put out an unapproachable vibe.  That was one of the things I wanted to change.  I am sorry about your dad.  Forgiveness is so much harder when it comes to a parent, even if you can understand why they are the way they are.  I am glad you have broken the cycle.  Hooray!  Inner peace is out there.  It just takes a lot of work.

Moogie - You are a much bigger person than I.  I had to completely cut myself off while I tried to work through some of the BS.  Now I do small doses and like you don't discuss anything important.  You should be proud of yourself for induring.  For all of the tragedies we have had in our lives, one thing we have learned is empathy.  I hope things get easier for you.  Just keep reminding yourself why you are doing what you are and congratulating yourself for it, even if it is purely selfish.  Forgiveness to me is selfish.  I surely do not work on it for them.

Sub

thenewme

Wow, Leaf  - what an awesome thread.  You've asked a really, really difficult question here, and the responses you've gotten have really reiterated to me how not alone I am in my struggle.  Thank you so much for that. Our hurts are so individual, but it's amazing how the suggestions everyone has given can be applied to each of us.  I'm not nearly far enough in my own journey to forgiveness to have much useful advice but just wanted to thank you for asking and everyone else for offering.  You have no idea how far-reaching your words can be.

Barbe, you really need to get that book out of your head and into print.  Seriously! You're amazing, and I agree with Kate about your children. 

ICanDoThis

I think it's really interesting that so many of us who feel impelled to jump in on the topic of forgiveness has struggled with the PTSD spectrum of BC treatment problems. Seems like we were more fragile than we perhaps realized, and we needed help after treatment.

But, I did want to weigh in on the victims vs. volunteers aspect of having been subjected to traumatic events as a child.

I have never hidden the fact here that I'm the alcoholic child of 2 alcoholic parents. My folks were physically attractive, charming, vulnerable people who could bite like snakes when they were drinking. When I grew up, I consistently fell in love with people who were just like them.  So, my primary recovery program even today is still AlAnon. I can walk into a room filled with 100 age-appropriate, attractive men, and the one or two I will find instantly attractive are a.alcoholic or drug-addicted, b. have a gambling problem, or c. have severe commitment problems. I have some of the ugliest relationship stories, and I can honestly say that I chose each one of them.
The difference today is that I know this, so I ignore the results of my instant radar, and instead pay attention to the people there who might be nice. Using this technique landed me DH of 23 years, who is kind, thoughtful, and one of my best friends. He is a RECOVERING alcoholic, who has been sober for over 30 years, and who was looking for a woman friend when we met. I kept waiting for him to turn back into a frog, but he still hasn't. I explored him as a person instead of falling in love in 20 seconds or less, and what do you know, that worked.

This process of changing was incredibly painful, but it was part of a long-term process that began with AlAnon and Adult Children of Alcoholics. I found that when I began to really forigve my parents - who were emotionally and physically abusive, neglectful, and did not protect me from situations I should not have had to handle on my own - because they really were sick people who actually did the best they could. It just wasn't very good, I was then mad at my grandparents, and God.

How could there be a universe who could have treated them the way they grew up! They made a whole different set of mistakes raising me than their parents did with them. So, there they were. They TRIED. And that means they loved me, to the absolute best of their abilities. How could I not forgive that? Forget, no. I raised my daughter very differently. But, there were a few things that I got from them that were actually good ideas.

OK, this took years, and every step was hard. But I am not angry anymore. How could I be angry at a woman who, when she came home from high school with the news that she had been voted the prettiest girl in the senior class, was met with the response, "Oh. Ugly crop?"

So treatment brought back the emotions of neglect, and carelessness. I felt uncared for, lied to, and overlooked. Fortunately, I had a grade 1 tumor, so the delays and oversights didn't cause a serious setback in my health. I'm not ready to forgive yet. But I am working on getting those feelings out - so that maybe I can forgive a little, and not dream about cleaning up the kitchen Thanksgiving evening, and looking at the carving knife, and thinking, if I cut my boob off, will somebody finally check it to see if I have cancer. It was over a month after I found the lump, and I had another month to go before I could get a mammogram, and my doctor wouldn't see if she could expedite, because she was sure it was nothing. She did offer me drugs, though. Ativan is as addictive as heroin for people like me. Idiot. She later went back and added that I had a history of fibrocystic disease to my chart (which I don't).

Thanks for listening. Talking about it, and how angry I am still, helps. I am going to a retreat next weekend on resentments and forgiveness.

Time for this to be gone.

Hugs to you all.

Sue

moogie

Such generosity in sharing all your stories!

It is infinitely helpful to know you all understand these feelings and are also working to find a definition for forgiveness that fits into a bigger, personal life plan. Many people who have not had such dramatic experiences think forgiveness is a one shot deal and you are done. Choosing your own fulfilling life by even trying to forgive is a bold step.

I was very angry yesterday for events that are current, and realized that elevating my own blood pressure was really harming me. You know that lump in your chest feeling when you are totally frustrated? It like anger with a left turn: helplessness in the face of something unyielding, ungrateful, unrelenting and unwilling to tell the truth. 

This thread helped, and I have read it more than once. Took a time-out, gardened ( very healing ) and realized that I cannot equate forgiveness with exposing myself to further hostility. When it gets nasty from now on, I will leave the conversation immediately---no regrets. 

Can't fix a situation I didn't break ------ can't let my mid-life years be scuttled by someone who is so angry themselves that there is no respect for others.

Thanks ladies. 

marthah

leaf,

This is a wonderful thread. Thank you for posing some very meaningful and contemplative questions. And thanks to all of the women here who have also shared their stories and perspectives. 

I have had my share of traumas in my life, but I don't think I've ever been to the point of experiencing PTSD. Having said that, I understand how debilitating that must be! So, I thought I'd throw in my two-cents worth of how I came to an understanding of forgiveness. 

It started primarily with observing my ex-husband. We were divorced many years ago after 13 years together, only 2 or 3 of which were good. My ex did not want the divorce, spread lie after lie about me when we were in the process, and has since lived a very unhealthy, dysfunctional life with his whack-job current wife. He has spent the last 20 years angry at me, hating me, blaming me for how unhappy his life is now. The point is, I did not make any decisions that brought him to where he is now. I have watched as his anger and unhappiness have literally eaten him alive, from the inside out. He is barely the shell of the young man I first met 35 years ago. 

When I see this, the first thing I think to myself it, "Man, I do not want to live like that!" How sad it must be to be him, to not be able to just let it go, whatever "it" is. 

For me, forgiveness is taking the thing, whether it's an action or a person or a statement, that has hurt me and just placing it on the ground. And when I am ready, I walk away. 

Do not let the hurt or the anger or the shame of whatever has happened rule your life. Hold the hurtful thing in your hand, place it on the ground, and walk away. Life is far too short to spend it hurting. I know you said you are not a religious person, and for whatever reasons we were put here on earth, it certainly was not to spend it in pain. We are put here to love and to experience joy. As long as you hold onto the hurt, you can't also hold the love and joy. 

Peace to you, my sisters. 

cp418

Jancie/Barbe - You accurately described the situation I was in with some family members before and during my dx/treatments.  They were 'Toxic" personalities and were not going to change - - so only I could resolve how they made me feel hurt, angry, etc.  I have cut myself off and rarely have any contact with them now.  Ignore and minimal interaction/contact has worked well for me where now the passage of time has made me a bit numb.  Wonderful posts.....

Anonymous

marthah- Your story about your ex and your feelings of "Man, I do not want to live like that" struck a chord with me.  I have the same situation with my older sister.  We both chose to process our childhood issues in different ways.  I, unfortunately, became the "pleaser" which came with it's own pitfalls.  Something I now acknowledge and have made huge strides with.  My sister seems to have taken your ex's approach.  She holds onto every perceived mistreatment with a vengeance. She's taken her experience and chiseled it into a massive chip on her shoulder.  Now and for ever more she expects kid glove treatment as though the world owes her for the wrong she suffered.  Looking at all the energy she expends, to not forgive anyone anything, made me see that I too didn't want to live like that.  It was almost her inability to forgive that helped me learn how to.

37antiques

I forgive easily. Because something happened does not make me at fault, I don't want to own the responsibility of the action.  Sometimes we can't control anything that surrounds us, but we still have to deal with it.  To forgive is to release the painful part, and that is all.  It does not give power to the action, it just gives you the peace to move forward.

To not forgive is to give the action power over you, it is involved in everything you do.  When you don't realize it, then it is a destructive force in your life.  When something happens, it does not make you powerless, you have the control of choosing to forgive.

faithandfifty

leaf, et. al: FASCINATING

I honestly think this is the healthiest thread I've read here at BCO in ages.

At this moment reading along in car. Connection is sketchie at best. I'll give my backstory at a later date, but I have spent much of the last twenty years on this issue of forgiveness.

I had some great therapy and counselling. Read some great books.

Made some great progress, continue to make more progress -- daily, weekly.

***I think we could collectively have that best seller, adding to the brilliant responses that have already been written & banking on those to come.****

My thoughts at the moment are on 'getting stuck/emotional/frustrated w someone who suggests that you/we/I need to forgive.

I've been thinking of that ever since I started the thread this morning.

YES!! I knew forgiveness was needed.

But how?

But how?

But how?

I honestly don't know if it was in a book or a direct conversation, but somewhere along my evolution someone said, "Even though you don't know how -- are you WILLING to forgive?"

That in my growth was the million dollar question.

So I changed from How do I forgive to a mantra of, "Yes, I'm willing to forgive, if I only knew how."

That was the breaking of the logjam for me.

Part I

faithandfifty

WILLINGNESS was an issue that took a long, long time to contemplate BTW.

What do I gain by not forgiving? That I was wronged. What status does that give me (in my own mind.)

Anyhow, I stayed on the 'willingness' question for a long time. (I'm a slow learner.)

Once I REALLY embraced that I was willing to explore forgiveness, I slowly learned some "how's" to be of situational help.

I remember going thru the phase of practising forgiveness on a continuum. Actually 'building' of forgiveness muscles. Practise forgiving a total stranger for an idiotic move on the freeway.

(small time, little issues)

I literally was directed to bigger/better/testier issues over time.

Part II

faithandfifty

Apologies for this coming across choppily/hastily.

Attempting to get this accomplished in fits & spurts. I don't mean to minimize anyone's broken-ness, or anyone's ache from the pain.

My own progress on this issue has taken decades, but as I look back now I can see genuine progress -- thru continued reading, journaling, etc etc. It's work. Real work.

Then I can feel that I've made a quantem leap.

I've been thinking all day about the 'frustration' w people who say "You just need to forgive to get better blahblahblah........... blahblahblah."

I've come up with the analogy of being angry with your dentist when they tell you that you need to floss for better dental health.

well. duh.

How often do I really take the time to floss?

So the willingess to forgive was my first step.

Then building up of experience w forgiveness was the next part of my practice.

Floss for dental health.

Exercise for physical health.

Forgive for spiritual health.

I totally agree, we forgive for our own well-being. [I LOVE the moonshiner' wisdom.... first I'd heard that particular expression.]

Part III

faithandfifty

Then choose the analogy that 'works' for you: attic w boxes, house-cleaning, going to the dump, considering the one being forgiven as a child/protecting your own child, placing it on the ground and walking away..... they each have merit. They each can be an 'exercise' toward progress.

I used to do this one exercise where I divided a piece of paper down the middle with a ruler.

On the left hand side of the page I held a pen with my non-dominant hand and wrote a quick question: "What do I need now?" Then I wrote the answer on the right hand side of the page with my dominant hand.

Don't censure either "hand." Write as quickly as possible.

Excellent exercise for insight/progress.

In your non-dominant (child's) handwriting, maybe ask the question, "Am I willing to forgive?"

See what your adult hand writing has to say.

I learned so much about myself. It may sound goofie, but it really gave me great clarity.

Almost spookie clear insight at times. Things I didn't know I was harboring, always surfaced from my non-dominant hand writing.

Edited to add, keep the conversation going back & forth, back & forth, passing the pen between your hands -- representing your weaker self and your ruling adult self. Try to fill a page or two, without thinking of what's being said, spelling etc. Write as quickly as possible.

Part IV

Stanzie

What a wonderful discussion. I know we have all been hurt in many different ways and had many different depths of hurt heaped upon us. However, It is amazing to me how... well I guess that we are the ones who want to understand and move on with our lives and move past/through the hurt as opposed to the one who did the hurting who probably never even thinks these thoughts.

Barb, what you said about your father makes me think of an amazing woman who has been torn apart by her father's cruely where even though I know you still feel much of the pain you truly have come a long way. My friend hasn't found her way yet and I have seen how horrendous those verbal assauts can be. So, even if you still have a lot to work through, I'd say you have found some amazing strenght and of course your wit and humor. But it is also clear what a loving and sensitive woman you are. 

Reading these posts has made me think about the hurts I have experienced, cruelity from other children,physical and emotional hurt,  a sister who hates me primarily because I was born, divorce, and of course disease - one that I had since puberty but my family decided early on it was just in my head.But the one I have the most trouble with are two friends who I thought were my family and they decided I shouldn't get divorced even though they knew how bad things were and therefore chose not to support me. I was so blindsided by this one that it is the one I'm not sure where I am with it all. Yes I had other friends tell me to forgive them. But why? I didn't do anything other than be a good friend to them so this confuses me. I still do not understand but now it doesn't matter it has been almost  5 years. I have nothing really to say anymore... We had a lovely conversation on the phone made plans to go to a concert and then Boom - sorry we are not comfortable with your decision or able to be around you. 

Sorry I know most are not getting specific but I guess I'm still so baffled I don't really have anything feelings at all anymore as these were friends I would have done anything in the world for. So I look to myself and how did I miss who they were or how they thought about me. Now that part scares me. As how could I not have seen all this. I guess at the same time with the divorce, there was nothing left in the marriage we both agreed on this but then out of the blue he got mean and nasty and really made things awful for me. Why? It took two to break the marriage why after 15 years did I not know he was capable of being so hateful and ugly.... I guess before I can forgive I need or want to understand me first. Sorry I have not been to sleep yet, yes it is 6:11am as my cat was lost but she is found but too wired to sleep now as I was getting up at 6;30 no point... so hope this makes a bit of sense.... Thanks for such an interesting thread.

Maria_Malta

Leaf et al, really thought-provoking thread...and one which we can all in our individual ways relate to, even if we are not experiencing PTSD.  Barbe's metaphor about the boxes in the attic is perfect... forgiveness isn't a switch we can turn on and off, but can only be approached when the time is ripe, and when we are ready.  As time passes one or two boxes might go past their sell-by date, and  might just be taking up too much space in the attic, and that would be the time to shelve them, but I really believe that this can't be forced or engineered, and depends on so many other factors, not least where we as individuals are at that speciifc moment.  I think it is as much a willingness to 'move on', as forgiveness per se.

Someone mentioned problematic political conflicts like Northern Ireland, Israel/Palestine, etc and I was reminded of the Truth and Reconciliation Committees set up by Nelson Mandela in South Africa at the end of apartheide.. in these committees it was seen to be crucial for the instigators to acknowledge the crimes committed against the victims in public. Only then was it felt tht their society could turn a new leaf and move on.  Was just wondering how/if this fits in to what was being said above...

voraciousreader

 I don't think it is ever possible to forgive or forget the behavior of someone that has hurt you to your core...especially when it is done over and over again.  However, if you take your emotion out of the situation, the hurt, the anger, the unhappiness, then it is POSSIBLE to move on.  However, while you may forget the specifics of the various situations that caused you grief, the thing that never fades, is the MEMORY of how you FELT....  I have distanced myself from toxic people, as well.  That's the best I can do.  Call me aloof, call me distant, call me what ever you want to!  When I reflect on who I am, well, I am a survivor...not just of breast cancer, but of some other catastrophic illnesses as well.  So if I could survive THAT, then I'm not going to let ANYONE, or even the MEMORY of ANYONE that is dead or alive RAIN ON MY PARADE!  I'm marching on to my own beat and I will NEVER forgive or forget...BUT WHAT I DO NOW IS live MY life on MY terms and boy oh boy am I happy!

voraciousreader

 Speaking of forgiving...this is my favorite feud of the last century....

'The people who caused me most trouble were Wallis Simpson and Hitler': How
the Queen Mother always saw Duke and Duchess of Windsor as outcasts

By Hugo Vickers

Last updated at 2:09 AM on 27th March 2011

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Part Two of a major
new biography reveals how the Queen Mother's withering verdict meant the Duke
and Duchess would forever be... the unforgiven

For Wallis Simpson, maligned as 'the woman who stole the King', the
Abdication was a tragedy. She was fond of Edward VIII but was not in love with
him.

She used to say, in later life, that she aged ten years in 1936 and the one
thing for which Wallis never forgave the Duke of Windsor was his decision to
renounce his throne.

Certainly, life after the Abdication was going to be difficult. The Labour MP
Herbert Morrison (grandfather of Peter Mandelson) talked of the dilemma facing
the Duke.

'The choice before the ex-King is either to fade out from the public eye or
be a nuisance,' he said. 'It is a hard choice, perhaps, for one of his
temperament, but the Duke would be wise to fade out.'

Outcasts: The Duke and Duchess of Windsor in 1966. Wallis
Simpson was acutely aware of his family's unwillingness to accept her

The Duke did not heed that advice. Bitterness came easily to him and, since
he had nothing to do, he had time to mull it all over. Years later, he told the
biographer Kenneth Rose: 'Twenty years I worked for my country and they kicked
me out on my ass.'

The social historian Cleveland Amory, who helped ghost the Windsors'
autobiographies, wrote: 'Almost every conversation I had with the Duke would
have at least one time in it the preface, "When I was King", and then a story
about that.

'As for the Duchess, she did not know the first thing about the British
government, nor indeed about the British people. All she knew was how to get a
man and how to get ahead.'

This begs the question: how did she get 'her man'? Every possible theory has
been advanced. It was even suggested that Wallis had learnt special sexual
techniques in Shanghai, where she had gone in 1924 to try to patch up her
marriage to her first husband Win Spencer.

Feud: Queen Elizabeth told the Duke when he abdicated that
she would always remember him in her prayers, though she soon became irritated
by his demands

The attitude of King George VI and the Royal Family towards the Duke
following the Abdication was something he found hard to come to terms with and
arguably never forgave.

Like so many other elements in the lives of the Duke and Duchess, their
wedding in 1937 was rife with problems. The King decided that no member of the
Royal Family would attend the ceremony.

From that day on, the Duke lay in wait for slights and succeeded in finding
them at every turn.

Moreover, Wallis was not given the right to be a Royal Highness or a member
of the British Royal Family. The title of Royal Highness was to be restricted to
the Duke alone.

The Duke minded this more than Wallis did and insisted that his staff call
her 'Your Royal Highness' at all times. For the rest of his life the Duke
appealed over and over again to have this decision reversed.

It became a major preoccupation  -  along with his wish that the Duchess be
received by the King and Queen, and for this meeting to be recorded in the Court
Circular.

In practice, the Royal Family could do as they pleased. They took steps to
prevent the Duchess becoming a Royal Highness partly out of fear that the
marriage would not last. At the time it was said that they did not want divorced
Royal Highnesses 'floating around the cafes of Budapest'.

More...

• Robbed,
  abused, sedated, alone... the desperate last days of the Duchess of Windsor
  

An ill-advised trip to Berlin in October 1937 to see Hitler can hardly have
helped.

The Duke continued to demand the right to return to Britain from France,
where they had settled, but the new King, his brother George VI, was advised
that the Windsors must not come back.

Once with his wife and her
cafe society world, the Duke found his own family more antiquated and distant
than ever

This would be another issue to dog them for the rest of their lives. The Duke
was alarmed to find that if he arrived in Britain without obtaining the King's
permission, private financial arrangements made for him by his brother could be
cancelled.

The Windsors were at Cap d'Antibes in the South of France when the Second
World War broke out, and the Duke agreed to return to Britain without insisting
on terms.

He had one lone meeting with King George VI, at which various options were
discussed concerning his future in wartime.

A year after war was declared, Churchill accused the Duke of disobeying
military orders, hinted at the threat of court martial, left him to stew
overnight and then sent him a telegram informing him that it was in his power to
offer him the Governorship of the Bahamas.

Nobody was excited about the appointment: the Duke and Duchess considered it
another form of exile while Queen Elizabeth attempted to quash the appointment
on account of the Duchess.

Such attitudes clearly wounded Wallis. Towards the end of the war, she
complained to a friend: 'I can't see why they don't just forget all about the
Windsors and let us be where we want to be  -  in obscurity.'

There is no evidence that Wallis consciously tried to isolate the Duke of
Windsor from his family, but she was acutely aware of their unwillingness to
accept her.

Rare encounter: The Queen and Prince Charles with the
Duchess of Windsor in Paris in 1972 shortly before the Duke died

Once with his wife and her cafe society world, the Duke found his own family
more antiquated and distant than ever.

Queen Mary, the Duke's mother, confined her contact with him to letters. His
decision to abandon the throne and the title of Edward VIII was, in her view,
made when his mind was absolutely unhinged.

She was devoted to her eldest son, but could not accept his wish to put the
path of personal happiness with Wallis before his duty.

This was best summed up in her remark to him: 'It seemed inconceivable to
those who had made such sacrifices during the war that you, as their King,
refused a lesser sacrifice.'

As the years went by, the Duke of Windsor rejigged his version of history. He
attributed the Abdication to an Establishment plot and began to believe that
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the new Queen, had led a campaign against him. In fact,
she played no part in the Abdication.

Many have insisted that she did not hate Wallis Simpson and simply wanted
peace, while others enjoyed the idea of a feud. Certainly, as the new Queen
Elizabeth and later the Queen Mother, she kept her distance.

The women presented contrasting styles. Elizabeth was sensibly dressed,
wholesome and loyal. Stylish and sharp, Wallis had a vaguely raffish edge.

That suspicion extended to the Duke. There remained a fear within the
aristocracy that he might attempt to reclaim his birthright, that his charisma
was a threat to the new King and that he could now no longer be trusted.

Wallis knew that few would
put flowers on her grave

Nevertheless, Queen Elizabeth told the Duke when he abdicated that she would
always remember him in her prayers, though she soon became irritated by his
demands.

Years later, she told Henry Gillespie, a friend from Australia: 'The two
people who have caused me the most trouble in my life are Wallis Simpson and
Hitler.'

It was her view that the Windsors should be discouraged from re-entering
Royal circles. In 1939 she made it known that she had no wish to meet the
Duchess of Windsor. If she did, she believed, it would be no time before the
pair would be wriggling their way into court functions.

The slights continued. On returning to Europe from the Bahamas after the war,
the Duke was irritated that neither he nor the Duchess was received at
Buckingham Palace, the accepted practice for every colonial Governor and his
wife.

The question of what the Duke might do next had been raised in London. Tommy
Lascelles, the King's Private Secretary, told the Prime Minister's office that
nothing had given him so much worry over a quarter of a century as the problems
associated with the Duke of Windsor.

Lascelles did not want him in England and made the devastating point that it
would be 'a constant agony (I use the word advisedly) to the present King, which
might have really serious consequences'. There would be no more official
jobs.

Meeting a monster: The Windsors' ill-advised trip to
Berlin in October 1937 to see Hitler can hardly have helped family
relations

In February 1952, George VI died and the Duke came to London alone for the
funeral. If he had hoped that the new reign would make his life easier, he was
mistaken.

He soon discovered, for example, that he had lost his allowance of £10,000 a
year, a voluntary sum given him by his brother. The Duke was shocked at this and
claimed he would have to adjust his standard of living while trying to live as
befitted the son of an English sovereign.

A mere four days after the death of George VI, Queen Mary sent a request to
Queen Elizabeth (by now the Queen Mother) beseeching her and 'the girls to see
[the Duke] & bury the hatchet after 15 whole years'.

They did see him, though, as her official biographer put it, Queen Elizabeth
was not enthusiastic.

Queen Mary thought, rather overoptimistically: 'So that feud is over, I hope,
a great relief to me.'

Unfortunately, the feud was not over. The Duke soon realised that there was
no future for him in Britain and that he would not be offered another job. The
Windsors put down roots for the last years of their lives, moving to the house
in the Bois de Boulogne, 20 minutes from central Paris.

The Duke and Duchess were not invited to the Coronation of Elizabeth II in
June 1953.

Sir Winston Churchill, the Prime Minister, told the Cabinet that whereas it
was understandable that the Duke of Windsor might attend a Royal funeral, it was
completely inappropriate for a King who had abdicated to attend the Coronation
of one of his successors. The Cabinet endorsed this view.

Therefore, the Windsors watched the Coronation on television, a friend
jesting that it was much more chic to watch the ceremony on a black-and-white
set in the company of the Duke and Duchess than to be seated in Westminster
Abbey.

Awkward: The Duke and Duchess of Windsor (right) are seen
with (l to r), the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen, Queen Elizabeth the Queen
Mother and the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester in 1967

In June 1964, the Duke of Windsor turned 70, with a flood of presents and a
telegram of congratulation from the Queen. In celebration of this milestone, a
newspaper article suggested that the Queen and the Royal Family should relax
their distant attitude and invite the Windsors to lunch. The article caused
outrage.

However, June 1967 saw one of the Duke's wishes fulfilled: a formal meeting
for the Duchess with the Queen and the Royal Family was arranged.

It took place at Marlborough House when a plaque was dedicated to the memory
of Queen Mary, who had died there in 1953. The Royal Family were there in force.

The Queen and Prince Philip were joined by the Queen Mother, the Duke and
Duchess of Gloucester, Princess Marina and others. They were lined up  -  the
Windsors on the far end, next to the Gloucesters.

The Queen could be seen shaking hands with the Duke and Duchess and chatting
briefly to them. The Queen Mother surprised courtiers by suddenly kissing the
Duke on the cheek. As the Duke of Gloucester's Private Secretary said: '
Consummate actress. She wouldn't have him to lunch.'

In 1970 the young Prince of Wales, somewhat influenced by his great uncle
Lord Mountbatten, thought they should come over for a weekend. He suggested as
much to the Queen Mother but met with a negative response. She reserved her
communications with the Windsors to an annual Christmas card, on which she
occasionally wrote a brief personal message.

Even after the Duke died in 1972, the frostiness went on unabated. When the
Queen Mother went to stay at the British Embassy in Paris in October 1976, there
was a suggestion she might visit the Duchess at her Bois de Boulogne home. But
this was never going to happen.

Such a visit would have given no pleasure to either party, nor was the ailing
Duchess by then in any state to receive a momentous visit of that kind. Instead,
the Queen Mother, ever one to do the right thing, sent flowers with the message:
'In friendship, Elizabeth.'

Three of her ladies-in-waiting have attested that the Queen Mother did not
hate the Duchess of Windsor. Visiting the Royal Burial Ground at Frogmore,
Windsor, about six years after the Duke's death, the Queen Mother saw his grave
and said: 'And I suppose the poor old Duchess will be here one day?'

The Queen Mother's line was that you have to know someone to hate them. The
Queen Mother hardly knew the Duchess.

When the Duke died, the Queen invited the Duchess to stay. When he was buried
at Frogmore she saw that his grave and the place reserved for her lay under the
branches of a plane tree. The Duchess had always loved plane trees.

Aware that it was unlikely that many would lay flowers on her grave, she took
comfort that the leaves would fall on to her grave in the autumn.

When the Duchess died in 1986, she was given a funeral service at St George's
Chapel and buried beside the Duke. The Queen stood at the graveside. Duke and
Duchess were finally united under British soil.

©
Hugo Vickers. Adapted from Behind Closed Doors, by Hugo Vickers,
to be published by Hutchinson on April 7 priced £25. To order your copy for £20.
with free p&p, call the Review Bookstore on 0845 155 0730 or visit www.MailLife.co.uk/Books

Anonymous

faithandfifty- There was so much I took from your posts but what stood out was the question- "What is gained by not forgiving?"  With that one sentence I think you enabled me to finally understand my sister's motivations because the answer that popped in my head was if she forgives, she can no longer be a victim, and that has been her identity for most of her life.  Take that away and what is she?  I redirected this towards my own life and had to admit I was also wearing the victim cloak in some circumstances.  Thank you so much for your wise words.

Stanzie- I think for most of us our families let us down so much.  But the pain seems so much intense when we feel betrayed by friends and lovers/husbands.  We don't choose our family but we do choose others in our life.  I always think what does it say about me that I chose so unwisely?   Every time they mistreated me I took it as a personal failure on my part.  But now I think there was a lesson to be learned and I kept flunking which is why it kept happening.  My lesson (and everyone's is different) was to believe in my self worth and refuse to be mistreated.  And to no longer spend what limited energy I had on human vacuums that sucked the life out of me.  (This was a tough lesson for me, being the "pleaser" and wanting everyone to like me!)  But, like you, I kept trying to make sense out of their emotional cruelty or indifference and never could and it was maddening.  Actually it still is but I'm working on it!  (Must be another lesson in there, too!  lol!)  

FireKracker

Wow what a thread....Barb-your words are so deep and heart felt.you should write a book.And all the other sistas....a big wow to you too.excellent.

I have the inability to forgive.Been working on it for years.Been in therapy,read the book THE SHACK about forgiveness.Sure it works for a while.I think I have it down pat but a switch goes off like someone mentions that persons name and BINGo im back to square1.The best quote from the book the shack is FORGIVENESS IS TAKING YOUR HANDS OFF THE OTHER PERSONS THROAT.ITS NOT ABOUT FORGIVING.Am i willing to forgive???NO.It is not possible to forgive someone who has hurt you over and over again.Cannot forgive or forget either...I am doing just fine without that person in my life.

Someone posted on facebook once.when you forgive someone do you really forgive them or are you putting them on probation????just food for thought.

Anonymous

grannydukes- Love the probation idea and taking my hands off their throat!  LOL!

FireKracker

Kate--i wrote it a little backwards.its forgiveness is taking your hands off the other person throat its not about FORGETTING....

Anonymous

granny- I like that even better!  Might have to be my facebook quote of the day!

FireKracker

It was mine a while back.Everyone should read the book the Shack....that quote came from the book.it is soooo deep.I had to read it 3x...

Anonymous

I like this quote by Clarissa Pinkola Estes who writes about how to know if you've truly forgiven someone or not-

"You tend to feel sorrow over the circumstances instead of rage.
You tend to feel  sorry for the person rather than angry with him.
You tend to have nothing left to remember to say about it all.
You understand the suffering that drove the offense to begin with.
You are not waiting for anything.

You are not wanting anything. 
There is no lariat snare around your ankle stretching from way back there to here.
You are free to go.
It may not have turned out to be a Happily Ever After, 
but most certainly there is now a fresh Once Upon A Time
waiting for you from this day forward."

heatherbless

THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST FORUMS I HAVE COME ACROSS!  THANKS SO MUCH!  HEATHER

Stanzie

Love both quotes! Thanks much to think about....

voraciousreader

Did ANYONE read the excerpt regarding the Queen Mother and Wallis Simpson??!!!  I think we can all take a lesson from the Queen Mother.  During her lifetime she was THE most beloved member of the Royal Family.  Imagine how it must have felt like for her to be in the limelight and figure out how SHE needed to behave in regard to The Duke and Duchess of Windsor...when all eyes were on her. I always said to myself, IF the Queen Mother could have a feud and STILL keep her dignity and respect without having to have ANYTHING to do with another mortal, then I am capable of doing it too! 

I'm with Granny....I'm not genetically predisposed to forgiving and forgetting.  I think if I ever had the opportunity to have had tea with the Queen Mother while she was alive, I think she too, would have thought of herself like me and Granny.  And there's nothing wrong with THAT.  I think the British are renowned for "Keeping a Stiff Upper Lip."  While many of this generation's Royals might behave badly, I like to think that they didn't get HER genes. She was a lady until the end!  Not bad.  Something I aspire to Every.Day.Of.My.Life.    

barbe1958

VR, I DID read the whole article on Wallis and the Queen!!! I had read a book years ago about it all. One thing surprised me above where it says Wallis never forgave the Duke for renouncing the throne. That doesn't make sense. The only way he could be with her WAS to renounce the throne. But the Queen just avoided Wallis as so many of us are doing by staying away from people that are not good for us. I don't think sexual abuse can quite be compared to not liking someone who marries into your family, but it was a good read.

voraciousreader

Barbe....The Queen Mother always believed that the Duke and Dutchess were responsible for her husband's young death.  While that may not have truly been the case for his early demise, in her heart she felt it had and THAT is pretty compelling. She believed them to be responsible for ruining her life as she had known it and spoiling her dream about how she wanted to live her life.  There are many kinds of emotional abuse that rise to the occasion of physical abuse.  I can only imagine the pressure cooker that the Queen Mother lived in, preceding the rise to the kingdom.  And then, becoming an "accidental" Queen...no less during Hitler's reign...here is a woman, I believe who wrote the book on how to behave. 

barbe1958

No question she was a leader with GRACE! Could write the book on political correctness, tact and diplomacy. But, she avoided Simpson and the Duke, so that wasn't forgiveness, that was avoidance.