What is forgiveness?

Anonymous

Gonna have to say I agree with the ladies up above.  Seems a little off topic, VR.  But, hey, whatever gets you through.

Lisa- Loved the garbage truck idea!  I think I might have to chuck a few boxes in there myself!   

VSM

Lisa, I too love the garbage truck idea!!

I just wanted to add that I do thinkVR's stories have a place here.  We are all hurting in our own way and the stories might touch a chord with some of us reading--we never know what that chord may be or how it might help someone...For instance, while I was unable to read the whole story, I saw the visual of the poor woman's face, and I immediately found a connection to her--the outside of her body is being mutilated and damaged, yet she still has resilience--maybe some of us are in the same boat--though our outside shells are changing, we strive to be our resilient self inside--trying to let our inside shine through, shine through the pain...

I value the varied stories and advice here--I take different things from each through my own perspective. 

Having said that...Maybe we all can try to send links to articles, etc., using the reading space for our discussions rather than for entire articles. 

mostlymom

I have compassion for the Iranian woman.  English royality behavior is something I will never understand and simply don't care about.

This topic has personally hit my heart and soul and has already given me insight to the baggage I've been unconsciously hauling around.  It's the good things I want to hang onto - tightly - the feel of my father's hand holding mine - my mother's hugs - my wedding, the birth of my children.  I want to learn how to lighten my black memories....

Bren-2007

Lisa .. I like your analogy of throwing the box in the garbage truck.  It's so difficult when it's family members, but for our sanity, we must do like your onc suggested and rid ourselves of the toxic people in our lives.  It is easier said than done.

What's even harder is if the toxic person isn't in your life anymore, but you are still holding onto the hurt.  That's what I struggle with ... letting go of the hurt.

Bren

ICanDoThis

Bren -

For me, the problem wasn't letting go of the hurt - it was that behind (or beneath) the hurt, there was so much anger! And, once you've gotten past the hurt, you can't just put it back on top of the anger so that you don't feel it.

I was stuck with a bucketful of white hot pissed off.

So, you have to be careful about what you pray for.

I genuinely believe that when you don't know what is causing what is going on, like what Leaf is describing, you need to be really careful about how you dig. Because I was really surprised about who and what I was mad at.

Sue

FireKracker

How do you get to the point  that BinVin is trying to get to? I have been trying for years.When its a family member that hurt you to the core how can you just take the anger along with the pain and put it in a box and put it in the attic. IMHO there cannot be forgiveness.

Bren-2007

ICanDoThis ... I fear there is a great deal of anger residing below the surface of the hurt.  The pain leaves as time moves on, but the anger seethes.

My biggest fear is that the anger is directed at myself .. instead of the one who deserves it.  You know .. the old thinking, it must be my fault somehow.  I stayed too long in an abusive marriage, so it's my fault that he ran off with his secretary.  I should never have put myself in that position in the first place.

What I need is grace and forgiveness for myself.

hugs,

Bren

wenweb

I also think there is a fine line between forgivness and trust.  It might be possible to forgive someone and yet still not trust them as is my situation.  It's a slippery slope because there is so much involved.  It 's hard to sort out the feelings so that you know which emotion you should be targeting. 

Anonymous

wenweb- You summed it up perfectly.  I can forgive more easily than I can trust again.  I think some people think that if you've forgiven them then the relationsip can now revert to the way it was before.  They don't understand they've done irreprable damage.    There are some relationships that if I can't trust it's not really worth going through the motions.

FireKracker

Back to my original question.....Do you forgive or do you put them on probation....I just dont forgive so there wont be any probation.I asked my family members the answers were mostly probation!!!!!!

ICanDoThis

Bren I haven't en joyed a lot of the work that I have done in this area, but it has been an important part of my 12 step program. I can tell you that when I worked on changing the stuff that I did to push anger down, the anger erupted, and I really felt sorta like I was riding a bucking bronco. It really helped to have someone I could talk it out, because there was a lot that came out. 

I would hope that you could share your anger with someone else - if you are right, and you are angry at  yourself, it would be really good to openly look at how wrong that is. Airing this stuff, and exposing it all to reality can make shrink back to its right size. And don't forget, there is no bad relationship that is entirely one person's fault. We all play some part. But I was always surprised how in balance my part was 

Hugs

Sue

Bren-2007

Thanks for your kind words Sue .. I was a member of a 12-step program for many years and I understand what you're saying.

hugs,

Bren

barbe1958

Granny, it's sort of been answered, but you didn't see it. Remember when 'trust' was mentioned above? That's the probation part you're talking about. I don't believe in probation as it is assuming that you will do something again. Same with trust. I cannot trust you if I think you'll do it again. That's what I said in one of my earlier posts. Forgive and FORGET are two different animals!!!

You are kind of asking if we should forget. NO WAY!!! It was a life lesson we learned and affected us deeply enough to still be reading this thread. We do NOT expect to ever forget...how could we? But to forgive takes the anger and blame away so you can relive an experience without ripping your heart and soul out again.

Don't know if it was in this thread I talked about disconnecting the wires that connect you to the person who is causing you pain. To have to visualize cutting the wire. Really do it. Visualize it over and over. Then sit back and watch that person try to hurt you. My DH and I watched my mother just tripping over herself literally trying to bad-mouth me, but my DH and I just kept laughing as if we thought she was being funny. I might have had a tear or two afterwards, going over some of the things, bad things, she was telling my DH about me, trying to make him not like me or something, I don't know!!!

Anyway, it worked!!! Cut the ties - ribbons - wires - strings - nooses - whatever you want to call them that 'physically' connect you to that toxic person you still have to see and watch what happens. If it wasn't so pitiful, it'd be funny!!! When you can look at that person and pity them, your job is done!

Good luck!

FireKracker

Thank You Barb....I work so hard at it i think sometimes im on overkill.The harder I work the worst it gets.Been in therapy for years but just cannot release the anger.I never did try the pity.hmmmmmmm gotta give that a try.damn i tried everything else.why not.Thank you again for your wise wonderful way with words.My new mantra PITY.And cut the wire.hugggggggggggs K 

ICanDoThis

Ah, Granny,

I'm so sorry this isn't working for you. For me, it wasn't just, or even mostly, about looking back, it was about looking forward. What would I get from letting go of my anger and resentment?

I was told that I had to get rid of the old stuff to open up my life to newer, healthier experiences. As I went through this therapeutic process, I changed jobs, moved, made new friends, met my husband, had my daughter. But I had to stop trying to hold onto what I had, which wasn't much, but was all that I had, and open my heart to whatever was to come.

And, no, I didn't forget. ANYTHING. But I refused to allow them to have any power in my life any more. LIke Barb said, I cut the cords. And I could care, but at a safe distance.

 Sue

leaf

One thing I think makes it a little more difficult for me  (with a PTSD-like syndrome), is that, often when I cringe I know I'm terrified but I am not aware *of what*.  Often I don't even know who is involved.  I've read one hallmark of PTSD is disassociation -  avoiding the trauma or anything connected with it.

So 'remembering' and 'forgetting' are problematic terms for me.  The cognitive psychologist I saw called PTSD 'a bad habit'.  I guess you form a 'habit' of reacting that way to anything that vaguely resembles the trauma.  Since some of my trauma happened when I was an infant, who of course is nonverbal, I guess its understandable why 'making connections' is difficult for me.

I am guessing its hard to 'cut the wire' before you know how the wire is connected.

barbe1958

Leaf, when you cringe or you realize you are reacting, you ARE connecting. You have to grab that feeling of CONNECTION!! That second, that pain, that exact feeling. THAT is your connection!! Now cut it. Release that feeling. Do NOT allow your body to feel that. Pity the people that feel that. Try sweetie!!!

I've been having night seizures lately and am being tested for epilepsy. I've had a sleep study and other tests and have an appointment next week to get results. I've been reading like crazy on the whole thing as I'm fascinated by night seizures. I've learned some of the signals my body sets off before I start the seizure. At first, I realized I moaned. So I was able to stop the seizure by waking myself up when I moaned. Then my brain got smarter and started with a different trigger. I realized I did a sequence of movements first; scratch my head, touch my right eye and then my forehead and finally mouth, the I would seize and moan AS I seized! It's been fascinating to follow!!!!

So, my point is, you DO have signals, but your subconscious brain is a LOT stronger than your awake brain so you have to figure it out. You know I wish you only the best sweetie!!!

Bren-2007

Barbe .. I think identifying when that feeling is happening may be more important that actually identifying what that feeling is.  As leaf said, when things happen to us as infants we can feel, but don't have the cognition to identify or what it may mean.

I love what you said about cutting the connection as soon as you feel it.  That's a great lesson in cognitive therapy.  You can always go back and identify the feeling or triggers at a later time.

hugs,

Bren

barbe1958

Absolutely Bren!! That was my point!! My subconscious mind knew I was about to seize and woke me up when I was moaning. (First my legs start to twitch, but I don't know if that's part of it or not.)  I didn't know what was happening but as I awoke, I realized I was moaning. So my subconscious took care of me and that's what I'm hoping Leaf sees, that her subc may take care of her.

You don't have to look your enemy in the eye to not ever want to see him again!!!

SoCalLisa

wow Barbe, that is incredible..about your subconsious doing that actually

training your mind/body connection..I love it

I also like your wire theory..I am going to try it..

leaf

Sorry if I'm **really** slow here, but just want to double check...so if I catch myself cringing, I say to myself 'Stop cringing!' ?  (Over the years, with a lot of therapy, my cringes **have** gotten less intense and shorter.)   What does 'release that feeling' mean?

I'm so happy that your subconscious seems to be alerting you to wake up.  Do you think waking up helps reduce your seizure activity?

ICanDoThis

Leaf, when I started trying to do this, I was only able to go - I'm afraid. Now. The next time, I am afraid, and this is what is happening around me. Then, after several more occurrences, I am afraid, this is what is happening around me, and later, I could say this is what was scaring me.

Then ... Is this something I want to react to.

What I found myself doing was noticing the scary stuff building up around me, and and I say, not going to let this go any further.

There's this story

I was walking down a street, and suddenly I fell into a hole.

The next day, I was walking down a street, and suddenly, I fell into a hole. It is the same hole I fell into yesterday.

The next day, I was walking down a street, and I saw a hole, and I fell into it.

The next day, I was walking down a street, and I saw a hole, and I stopped before I fell in.

The next day, I was walking down a street, and I recognized that it was the street with the hole in it, and I went back and took another street.

The next day, I took another street. 

barbe1958

Leaf, as you start to cringe I want you to do a number of things....STOP the cringe and try to see how you feel, what you are doing at the time and what happens if you don't cringe. Obviously this won't happen the first time. Just the fact to acknowledge the cringe is good! Then wonder next time, is it fear or anger or sadness that you feel when you cringe. It may not be fear, it may be just tiredness of dealing with the on-going situation. Seriously. You'll be amazed at what will come out of your subconcious. You may be avoiding analyzing your feelings because you're sick and tired of avoiding things! I would be.

Then when you can stop the cringe, figure out what started it. A man's voice? A tone of voice? A visual, a smell, a sound??? Something is triggering the cringe. You can't stop it if you don't know what sets it off. You may still feel sick at this point, but it becomes empowering as you move on.

Next time you cringe and realize that it was the sight of a man in a trench coat, stop and let yourself feel. Let the feeling run through your brain to see what it really is. Fear? Anger? Resentment? Pain? Lonliness? Only you will know, and ALL of those are certainly reasons to cringe!!!! Each time you can see what is causing your cringing (and it may be a lot of things - like a loud noise) you can own your feelings and that is a huge step!!!

Only once you can acknowledge your feelings and 'own' the feeling - really knowing what it is - can you begin to heal. How can you heal when you don't know where the wound is???

It's like when someone is in surgery and starts to bleed-out. The docs have to stop the bleeding, find the fault and only then can they fix it. You have been bleeding-out for a long time, sweetie! It's time to heal....

(Just a caveat: you may be successful doing any of the suggestions here, but you may fall-back as well. That is NOT failure, but learning your own parameters. How much can Leaf take at a time? One way to find out.)

edited to make it 'sub'concious above

carol1949

All quite profound and lengthy thoughts.  One thought that helps me is:  "When we hold on to old thoughts and feelings, we can't grasp anything new."  I found it helpful to write a journal of my deepest, darkest thoughts and then trashed it w/out reading it.  Thereby giving those painful thoughts and feelings to the universe!

SoCalLisa

Adios to all the bad stuff...

FireKracker

Well I woke up this morning with the same thoughts I have every morning EXCEPT the word PITY can into my mind....Hey it worked.I didnt start shaking,feeling down,angry or even depressed....hopin it stays that way but for today I only feel pity

Damn Barb YOU ARE GOOD!!!!!!I do change my mind quite often but hey if it works one day and i continue doing it everday I thinkI FINALLY GOT IT....It took me 10 yrs.Thank you again.i keep sayin over and over again pity pity pity....yes I do pity that person finally.....I hope everything turns out ok for you Barb...will be prayin for you STRONG LADY.God bless.hugggggggs K

Anonymous

ICanDoThis- Loved your analogy about the street and the hole!

barbe1958

Granny, congrats to YOU!!!! Remember, you might not 'get it' every day, but even ONE day without pain and anger is a blessing!!! I am SO proud of you and SO happy for you!!!!!

Kate, what Icandothis wrote was written years ago and in the foreward part of a biography of......was it Rosie O'Donnell??? I can't remember who wrote the piece, but it too, has stayed with me for years and years. Another way of saying "If you keep doing things the way you've been doing them, you'll keep getting the results you've been getting." Very powerful and I thank you SO much Icandothis for reminding me of those words!!! I must have read them 20 years ago and the lesson has stuck with me, if not the words!!

FireKracker

Love this thread.Thanks Leaf for starting it.Every word brought me to the point I am at right now ...Every story I related to.Im so peaceful now.I found pity now!!!!!! THANK YOU.

barbe1958

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Grannydukes }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}