What is forgiveness?

Stanzie

I think in the long run it is an individual process that we all must figure out for ourselves. I wish there was some magic guide or how to brochure to make it all go away. I guess I'm really thinking there isn't a way for someone else to tell you How to forgive as it wouldn't necessarily be the right thing for you as an individual, if that makes sense.

I think when not being able to forgive someone or something that has happened and it consumes your life or takes enjoyment away from you, that is when you have to stop even if it doesn't make the hurt go away. Perhaps that is when you put it away in the box till you are ready to deal with it.  At least stop and appreciate what goodness there is in your life in the people who bring joy to you.

Just as the mind will block things that are too painful and hard for a person to bear, I think sometimes being able to forgive is something one must do when one is ready if ever and hopefully the right time will present itself. At the same time, little by little since it won't totally lose our sonsciencious thinking we work on it as we can. 

barbe1958

That's a good way to put it Stanzie, and I think some of us are living that way. I did separate very quickly for leaf that forgiveness and forget are two distinct things!!!

Stanzie

Oh I totally agree with that one!

FireKracker

Im still doin the pity thing.AND its still working!!!!!!When I think back of the people who have really hurt me I PITY them.We had sooo much together and now it is their loss.Ill never forget,ever ever but i do feel the pity.Thanks Barb again.And yes I too tied it all up in a big box and put it way back in the closet.

In the book the shack it says forgiveness is taking your hands off the other persons throat.Its not about forgetting!!!!!! I like that one.

NavyMom

I so totally agree.....Forgiving is good.  Forgetting is foolish.

ICanDoThis

Just wanted to let you all know that I did a weekend retreat based on Forgive for Good, by Frederic Luskin.

Really interesting

We started off by identifying something that was hurtful or painful, then we talked about Renting Too Much Space to Disappointment, then proceeded to identifying what part of this did you cause, and what part is outside, then we talked about unenforceable rules. They are rules that we cannot enforce - like, I expect you to not spend your money on frivolous things -- when you do not control the person's wallet.

It was hard, and I was amazed at how stubborn I can be, but I learned a lot.\

Would highly recommend this to others.

Sue  

barbe1958

Sue, that sounds like an AMAZING course!! I love those kind of things and miss upgrading my life skills.

FireKracker

Sue----I think I need that.In fact I know I need that.Do you or Barb have any info on these retreats???? I live in New Jersey and have no car but if there was a way that I could get to one I sure would try...I think after I did the pity thing (which im still doing)I am ready to face my part in all of this.Wow I think this is gonna be hard!!!!!!!! real hard...and im scared shit in plain old English.

barbe1958

I just Googled the phrase of "Renting too much space to disappointment" and saw he has a book!!! I wonder if the book is a good as the workshop???

NavyMom

That is the book I was refering to when I posted that paragraph.  The book did help me.  Got it from my local library.

Navy

D4Hope

Well I have forgiven and been forgiven many times over my lifetime. There is just one person I can't seem to forgive, won't go into details but this person hurt my daughter when she was six and he is a relative. Someone I loved and trusted. Our family has gone through therapy and my daughter is a tween now and thriving. She has asked me if I forgive this person and the only thing I can say is I am trying. My daughter has forgiven him, she is amazing. As her mother I just can't get past what he did. I don't relive it every day anymore but I don't think I am ready... yet to forgive him. He hurt my child.

I have prayed for guidance and we are moving on but a part of me still feels angry, especially when other family members have told me to get over it. But then it wasn't their child.

Hopefully some day I can forgive , but until then I keep that stiff upper lip where my daughter is concerned, for her sake.

barbe1958

D4, Frederic Luskin who wrote the book we're talking about says that the murder of a child is the most horrendous act to have to forgive. Your daughter's situation is probably a close second...without knowing what it is, anyone who abuses a child should be put down.

FireKracker

D4 Hope----did you read the Shack.....you would get a lot out of it.I did but my case is a little different.My child was not hurt.

Im gonna get the book Renting too much space to disappointment by Fredrick Luskin...am i right with the name????

Im really getting better.I know this thread is helping me a lot....And I am also ready to face what needs to be faced.(I think?)

Thank you again all you wonderful sistas for the huge impact you made on my life in many aspects...God bless each and every one of you.huggggggs K

barbe1958

The book is "Forgive for Good". I read some excerpts online and it sounds like a good read. He's chatty, not clinical and gives lots of examples.

You're doing great sweetie!!!

NavyMom

Hi Grannydukes, The book is called Forgive for Good by Frederic Luskin. 

((((D4Hope))))

Navy

ICanDoThis

Yes, ladies.

The retreat was run by a student of Dr Luskin's, who developed materials. We walked and talked our way through the materials.

Combined with the cognitive behavior training that I did in therapy, this really is helping me get my head on straight.

Sue

leaf

I got another email from this same relative, X, who wanted me to forgive the perpetrator.  X wants me to go to the funeral my close relative, B (who was *not* the perpetrator of my experience at about age 5).  I did *not* have a close relationship with B.  In fact, I disapproved of almost everything B did. B could not put herself into another person's shoes.  She expected other people to fix her mistakes and choices.  She could not look at what she was doing. She would ask my opinion, then do 180 degrees the opposite.  So I stopped giving her my advice when she asked, because I thought my advice was good.  (Such as getting yearly mammograms after age 50.)

I read the obit of B, describing how B was such a loving, kind, generous person.  That was *NOT* my experience of B.  In fact, the obituary made me nauseous.

X said she has gone to the funeral of many people, even that of a friend of her parents who was both a pastor and a convicted pedophile.  Even all the grandchildren went.  X said she was honoring the good parts of this pedophile's life.  X enjoys supporting the grieving people.

Well, the immediate relatives of B have made it quite clear that I am not important to them emotionally.  So support is not very pertinent. They did send me one sentence of thanks when I sent the immediate relative of B a check to cover the funeral expenses of B.  (B only left debts.)  The immediate relative invited me to the spreading of B's ashes, but said they couldn't accomodate  lodging for me at this rural place (though they had accomodated B's other relatives that are the same relation to B as I am,  and friends of B.)  I was not close to B, so I didn't really care anyway.  But I'm angry at being treated as an afterthought when I'm the one paying for the whole thing.  (I sent the money because I was afraid they would just let B 'go putrid' in the backyard if I didn't. This apparently (??) happened to a person that B let live in her house (parents didn't have enough money for a cemetary plot and didn't want/have the funds for cremation, I guess). 

I do not plan on going to B's funeral.

I guess I just can't stand insincerity.  Yes, funerals are helpful if they express what you are feeling.

I would be afraid if I went to B's funeral, I would stand up and say, "That was not my experience of B."  Or else I might throw up on the floor.

VSM

Leaf, Funerals are for many purposes, but for me, they hold a strong sense of closure.  If you feel comfortable with the closure you have had with B, there is no more for you to do.  If a gathering of the deceased's family and friends does not bring you the peace of closure or hope for the future of the rest of us here on earth, I say that you need not expose yourself to the negative aspects surrounding the situation and perspectives/opinions of others toward you.  You alone know what's right in your heart concerning the situation--no matter how someone else perceives your actions.

barbe1958

Leaf, I didn't go to a co-workers funeral. Someone I had worked beside for a couple of years. She treated me like SHIT. I went to another location, she quit the old location and died within 9 months. It would have been hypocritical to go to her funeral. I didn't need anything else except to know she was dead. I didn't wish her dead, nor did I want her dead. I felt sorry for the family she left behind. That's it. Over. Done.

I did go to both my parent's funerals and spoke at both. I took pride in being able to speak as my other siblings all couldn't. I, too, hated when the dead are lauded with praise and sainthood, but I've never read an obituary that said someone was a son of a bitch! I actually saw this tomb stone in a cemetary in Montreal, Quebec:

Those that loved me, loved me well. Those that don't can go to hell.

hehehehehhhehe

You did more than enough by paying. Let it go. That was your closure. You didn't want to be there anyway. Let go.

mebmarj

I saw this thread when it first started and then had my own forgiveness experience last week.

Funny I found it to catch up today.

Long story short, someone who hasn't made contact in five months suddenly came out of the wood work. Made contact with husband about delivering a gift. He advised them to contact me. So a few days went by, they call at dinner time on my birthday to ask if they can drop by! Not only did they drop by, they stayed for hours and blah, blah, blah... I couldn't figure out why all of the sudden contact was made. I was really hurt and confused by their actions in the past. Really struggled and decided I wasn't going to go out of my way to make contact a reopen that wound. Then I was contacted again and the reasons for their sudden contact were perfectly clear. Sorry, not gonna use me or my family to boost your ego, brag, use or abuse. No more.

I'm just turning down the "opportunity" to hang with this toxicity anymore. There are so many others who I'd rather be with and enjoy.

leaf

Thank you, VSM, barbe, and mebmarj.  You can tell I have a lot to work on in this anger and forgiveness area!  You have all been helpful to me.

I'd much rather have contact with people that can 'give and take', as in a more normal relationship.

There are so many others who I'd rather be with and enjoy.   You said it well.  But I need to work on letting go of my anger, however that happens.

I so appreciate these boards.  You can post how 'it really is' for you.  And learn you are not alone.

Dilly

Leaf, you did the honorable thing by paying for the funeral. As for attending or interacting, you are under no obligation to put yourself into an uncomfortable situation.  Their lack of respect is not your problem either; it just hurts.

One of the things that helped me get my head in a better place was realizing that the folks who I respected and who I was the "most real with" - people who I could be my real self with, they thought I was ok .  It took awhile to get past "boy do I have them fooled" which is just more self-defeating head-clutter, but I eventually realized that if the people who I respected, respected me back, then whatever the problem with others I might have, it wasn't necessarily my problem. 

Trust me this took years... but now those real people are the ones who I surround myself with.  (I'm thin, so it only takes a few folks to surround me.)

A few weeks ago, I had a milestone birthday party and when planning, I invited only people who had somehow been there for me during my bc journey & in my life. (age range, 5 to 90). There were a few true family/friends who didn't get invited due to distance or/ , but one of those people made a very long trip & just showed up and surprised me and completely made my day.  Another, who has caused much family grief for years, who takes no responsibility for that grief, and who said not one word to me during all my dx/tx/recovery - she got totally bent out of shape because she wasn't invited. So much so that she has cut off all contact, and was vicious about it. (Her loss. Besides family connections, I'm in process of updating my will, and despite it all she had been in it.)  And yet there is no real anger on my part.  There really is nothing to forgive.  It just is what it is and she is who she is, at least right now.  I'm mostly sad that she is how she is (I pity her), that it hurts a family structure and members.  I have hope that she can change; but no attachment to that happening.  It just is what it is, and all I have is now. And all I can do is make the best of today if I can. 

Rarely do I completely "close a door," because I like to leave a little light shining through.  When I do completely close a door, it's usually locked.

That's what I say to myself when I'm feeling good anyway

I think knowing you are seeking makes all the difference.

Peace.

btw, I do the "obligatory congenial" stuff when it's called for... fortunately or unfortunately, I don't have a real large extended family with the demands of same. Some people have very large, intricate and involved families, which can make being real more difficult.

FireKracker

Barb---you really cracked me up with that that person put on the headstone.

I always wondered if it was just me that carried around this unforgiveness NOW i see that there are sooo many people who are hurting as much as I am.....bet there are quite a number of people who are just reading these posts and are saying the same thing but maybe their hurt is to heavy to even say out loud.

AM I MAKIN PROGRESS??????Still doin the pity thing and its still working!!!!!!!!

love each and every one of you.huggggggggs K

mebmarj

I know I have some pent up anger too. No quick answers to that. People who seem to hurt in us in numerous ways and either keep doing it or don't seem to realize/care aren't really the friends we thought they were. I spoke at length to a friend who is a therapist and she helped me realize how shallow and what a user my long lost "friend" really was. I know she has her own issues and thats probably got a lot to do with why she is the way she is and explains her actions.

wenweb

A work in progress indeed.  I always have the best intentions in my mind, but when that one person I have difficulty with enters the picture, I back off...

FireKracker

Well I was doin sooo good with the pity thing.really I was BUT my Xhusband who left me without a roof over my head with 4 kids for another women is really suffering now...she died...and i dont feel one drop of pity for him at all....in fact im glad he is suffering....i am happy he is gonna taste what he did to me and my kids over 30 yrs ago.he changed their lives by never being a part of it....

I actually have a smile on my face.I dont even feel a drop bad for him and her either....i never wished her bad but i hated her guts....

Did i take a few steps back?????

barbe1958

Granny, you didn't take a few steps back. You didn't have to pity her. You have grown so much, you don't even have to pity him! You are over him. I don't pity my ex anymore and I knew when I stopped that I had finally gotten over him. It's like you graduated!! You now feel about him, just as you would about a mere acquaintance you met at work!!

You done good!

perky

I am so glad I stumbled across this thread! This has been incredibly helpful and your insights are amazing. I have been getting so frustrated with people through this whole thing and now I see I have had it soooooo wrong. I need to forgive myself. Everyone around me has been completely authentic to who they are wether it is self absorbed, unable to cope or whatever. How stupid of me to expect Anyone to be anything other than what they are. I am forgiving myself for getting sick, being needy and idealistic and emotional. I am guessing that people have to forgive me for not behaving like Barbra Hershey in the movie Beaches. I have let go of so much resentment because of this thread and it is so freeing. I am not going to invite toxic people back in my life, that is a bad idea but I no longer need to feel conflicted about it. ahhhh! Thank you so much!

barbe1958

Good for you perky!!! That is what all these threads are for - to find one that makes sense to your situation and validates your actions. You done good! 

perky

Barbe1958, put me in the list of people that would love to read your book! Leaf, thank you for starting this very thoughtful thread. Hope you are doing well.