STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER

runor

Prehistoric, forgive me. Saying you support death with dignity then posting a suicide prevention line number is a bit confusing. Death with dignity IS suicide. Is this not clear? Dying grossly over a horrible length of time, leaving your family utterly drained and traumatized by what they have endured, is better than taking matters into your own hands? I say no. I say sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I say when the writing is on the wall and the inevitable has wrung the last shred of hope and joy and light out of you and everyone around you, offing yourself is no longer suicide. Offing yourself is stepping the hell up to the plate and taking control of perhaps the last thing you have to take control of!! And if our govt officials remove from us the choice to have this done humanely and professionally by a doctor, then 'suicide' is the option we have. And while we're at it, I object to the word suicide used in this context. Suicide is what people do who have before them a good life with multiple possibilities and they kill themselves long before their time on this earth is up. THAT is SUICIDE. But ending a life that is terminal, painful and obscene to everyone around you, including yourself, should be called a Home Death, just like having a baby at home is a Home Birth. Stupid and narrow minded to call one an option (home birth) and the other gets the naughty finger wagged at it and called that word that implies tragedy and a failure to overcome hardship - suicide. No, terminal cancer or any other terminal illness that is going to drag a family through the mud and filth and horror over a long period of time will not end in suicide! It will end in enough is enough, today is the day, I will not inflict this shit on you any longer. Under these circumstances posting a suicide prevention hotline number is bad form. It is a judgement. No room for the politically correct or morality police here. Nope.

Artista928

I think she posted the suicide number in case anyone is on the fence...

edj3

+1 Runor. Totally agree.

ctmbsikia

My husband is also a mini hoarder. He also doesn't put things away, and yes that drives me insane. I get overwhelmed easily by too much stuff. His mother just recently went into a facility so guess where some of her stuff is? He has also been known to take my stuff on his jobs--like a broom or cleaning supplies. I have resorted to hiding my own toolbox so my screwdrivers and hammer won't also disappear to that wreck of a van he drives or yet another job site. His shed is the same way, a mess.

He recently fell on a job and suffered a concussion. Had a good CT head scan though. He's more careful and slower and still not quite himself. I scheduled a lung screening for him tomorrow. Hope nothing going on there that's slowing him down (other than COPD). I can't say for sure, but my husband strikes me as one that will refuse all treatment should he ever get a diagnosis.

Like your perspective runor. I was brain washed as a child being raised Catholic and all, I don't know that I could administer a lethal dose to myself for fear of being condemned to hell. I do believe that should I ever get a terminal illness of any kind, someone- whether earthly or not, will help guide me to wherever it is I'm going.

jaycee49

Lita, both kitchen tables are in use. One is for eating and is mostly clear. Salt, pepper, napkins are allowed. The other (the old one) is covered with junk, mostly not mine. One eight and a half by eleven corner is a small pile of my cancer documents, only the most recent as I file them as they get older.

runor, the process here is called Medical Aid in Dying by most proponents. You'd never get any state laws passed if you called it assisted suicide. Which, as you so eloquently (and violently) stated, it NOT what it is. Who cares what they call it? It needs to be available like with our pets. Canada gets the good drugs because you don't have the death penalty. No one will sell them to us because we do.

Prehistoric, if that posting of the suicide hotline was for my benefit, there is no need. I would have no idea how to carry our that process. DH has guns but I don't know how to use them. He talked me into firing one once and it nearly broke my shoulder. The closest I've come to suicide is when someone pulls out in front of me in traffic and I say to them (in my head), "You think I won't hit you? Think again."

Lita57

Here, here, Runor! We have to re-frame how we deal with our own demise.

No, I don't look at it a suicide either...I view it as taking an active part in transitioning home to Heaven.

Catholics have the concept of "redemptive suffering," so they can align themselves and share in Christ's sufferings, but Protestants take a different view. How much does one have to suffer when the Lord supposedly ALREADY paid the price for you? I don't have the answers. bit I'm not going to drag my family thru hell (mud and filth is putting it very delicately and euphemistically).

As I've said b4, I plan to go "VSED" Voluntary Stopping of Eating and Drinking, and I'm already "rehearsing" one day a week by fasting (I have to FORCE myself to eat as it is w/all my miserable SE's so it's not that difficult for me at this point - and as you get close to "the end," you don't want to eat anything anyway). I try not to dwell on all this and waste precious mental time, and I'm not in a big hurry to transition on either...I'll have eternity to be with my Lord, so I must try to enjoy living in the PRESENT because I don't have much time left, and I won't be able to periodically "come back" here whenever I want to.

L

Mominator

I don't look at refusing treatment or refusing food and drink as suicide. These are valid choices. Chemotherapy is very hard on the body. What good is chemo if the cancer has already taken over? If bodies are breaking down, forcing people to eat or drink is not prolonging their lives, only delaying their deaths.

Hubby's aunt had an aggressive stage 4 colon cancer. She was having chemo, with wicked SEs, up until the day before she died. Why? There was no hope. Her chemo didn't even buy her a couple of weeks. Her doctor should have sent her home or to hospice so that she could transition in peace, surrounded by her loved ones.

Of my family and friends that have gone through hospice, it has been either VSED or palliative sedation.

Our beloved Nana was dying from COPD and vascular issues. She just slowed down and stopped eating. She became more sleepy. She passed within a week.

My mother was on hospice about a month (also with vascular issues). One day she just stopped eating. No interest. She passed the next morning.

My two friends with cancer chose palliative sedation. Both were suffering greatly before they went on hospice. Ann passed in a week. Lori took several weeks. Her sedation didn't seem as deep and her husband was "feeding" her every day. (IMHO, he was actually stuffing her face. She didn't seem to want to eat many of the times that I witnessed him feeding her.)

None of these four people seem to be suffering while they were on hospice.

If myself or a loved one is suffering pain that is no longer controlled, and the condition is terminal, I would chose a combination of VSED and palliative sedation.

AliceBastable

Guns are a lousy choice for an end-of-life decision when the person already has a debilitating disease, because it takes physical strength to do it effectively. I have arthritis in my hands and could never shoot a gun, particularly one-handed. And I'm reasonably healthy yet!

prehistoricmom

Hi all. Yes, I posted a suicide prevention hotline number and I stand by it. I didn't post it for anyone who had posted in the thread. Let me restate that I support the death-with-dignity statements in the thread. I posted the # & text in case someone (not posting) was reading the thread & starting to freak out about suicidal feelings. I posted it because everyone should have that number in case a loved one calls them in trouble. It was not disrespectful, my statement/posting was an acknowledgment that a lot of people may be reading the threads, each in a different frame of mind. Maybe we would agree that just as a person has a right to a death with dignity, others have the right to fight depression, pain, anxiety, etc., to preserve a life they still feel is worth living. I have stirred up some strong feelings? but I'm happy to learn nuances about end-of-life issues & chatroom etiquette & I will say once again, I appreciate the women on this forum who are willing to speak the truth about horrible situations.

DogMomRunner

My mother in law just passed away in May from lung cancer. The tumor was inoperable so she had aggressive chemo and radiation therapy. She developed mets to her brain. At that point she said no more. She got on steroids to help the tumor swelling, slowed her food intake down and invited family and friends to come say good bye.

If I get a terminal diagnosis, cancer or otherwise, I won't put myself through aggressive treatment if it won't help. I will also voluntarily stop eating and taking in fluids if that is the only way to end my life. In my work, I see 90+ adults having to fight with their children to be a DNR. It's crazy how scared we (as a society) are of death. Seriously there are worse things to go through

Toscaxoxo

My 21 year old son died by suicide in 2014. That was and is atragedy. If and when cancer makes my life unbearable and I choose to end my suffering, that will be something altogether different.

prehistoricmom

Toscaxoxo, I'm so sorry.

I have to fight the feeling that straight-up tragedy should get me/us a free pass out of other shit, like cancer.

I wouldn't mind skipping the wisdom and having a dumber, less painful life. (I think I actually believe that ...)

jaycee49

Lita, I do plan to periodically "come back" here whenever I want to. There will be unfinished business.

mara51506

Once I have gone through treatment options that I am willing to take, I plan to go to hospice and be sedated without food or water as well. No this is not suicide, this is the choice I choose myself. I also do not plan to do another systemic chemo if this treatment fails me. I live on my own and don't wish to deal with SE at home.

My plan is to have my older brother and wife be with me when time to pass with star wars music playing in background as I love those movies. They are the ones I trust and they were with my mom when she passed earlier this year.

Everybody has their own time and wishes when it comes to death. As long as their wishes are clearly laid out before they are indisposed and their wishes are followed then that is good. I set out my wishes verbally and legally to make sure visitors are monitored too. I just want my older brother and his wife when my time comes.

As far as the suicide prevention, I take no offense to it. There are dark times where I wish my illness could be over as I am tired of fighting cancer after these years. I like the idea of somebody on the edge who may not want to die to have someone to talk to. That situation is completely different than a cancer patient planning end of life plans. I can see the benefit of that number for straight up suicidal people which are not the cancer patient planning end of life plans.

Simbobby

I am furious. After going through my breast cancer treatment, chemo, radiation, mastectomy, breast reconstruction and hormone therapy, I only have a couple of minor reconstruction tweaks. I feel better than I’ve felt in two years. 8 weeks after my free tram flap reconstruction, I went in for my colonoscopy. The Dr told me she had to abort the process because I had too much scar tissue in my abdomen. I was in extreme pain immediately following the procedure which they told me was just air in my abdomen which would go away.

Two days later, I called back complaining of fever, sweats, chills, nausea and extreme abdominal pain. The Dr conveyed (through her nurse practitioner) that my symptoms were from something viral and had to run it’s course. Couldn’t be from the colonoscopy.

After an excruciating weekend, I went to my GP who immediately sent me to the emergency room. I had a perforated colon. 8 days in the hospital with nothing to eat or drink for one week, not even ice chips. Kept blowing out my IVs so they had to place new ones - 4 in one week. Can’t use my right arm for IVs due to node involvement - my left arm noow has no usable veins left. I’m told these veins wil rejuvenate in 3 to 6 years, but they may now need to re-place my port. Any Future IVs will have to be placed by the IV team using ultrasound - nurses can’t place them.

The colon is slowly healing but this is a setback as I had hoped to have my last two reconstructions completed this calendar year as I have met my out of pocket costs

Sorry for the long rant.

Beaverntx

Simbobby, no need to be sorry, your experience is rant worthy!

marijen

Simbobby, I would be furious too! It sounds like the doctor lied as to why she aborted the procedure

runor

Simbobby, what a horrible experience! Sometimes it's like doctors can't listen. My god.

Prehistoric, perhaps I should make my rather passionate response to your post more clear.

Do you think any of us don't know how to get ahold of a hotline? Or support? We're all connected to the internet where information on anything is available. This entire forum is a hotline for support!! Yet you post - in a discussion about end of life issues - a number for suicide prevention. And you stand by that. Where I grew up, that is bad manners. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. It does not matter that 'anyone feeling desperate might read this thread and I just want to be the only one in the room offering up hope'. Let me tell you, the STORIES and TRIALS and EXPERIENCE shared on these threads IS THE HOPE! Here, there is real evidence of people who continue, endure, carry on, show up for the shitty treatments and continue to live their lives. IF THAT ISN'T SUICIDE PREVENTION I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS !!! (I am not capital lettering at you personally, but at the topic in general) If someone finds themself at a convention of vegetarians it would be BAD FORM to whip out their pastrami on rye at the lunch table, which is pretty much what happened when you offered up (with only the best intentions) a suicide prevention number while people spoke about how to end their lives with dignity. Nope. Not cool.

Furthermore, your bio states that you are a psychologist. When you make statements or leading hints about suicide prevention, you need to DISCLOSE and STATE CLEARLY that your interest is one of toeing your professional party line. If you had said something like "As a practicing psychologist I help people see there are options available other than suicide and so I would like to post these numbers...." that might have at least explained where you were coming from. Transparency and honesty are paramount to real relationship building, as I am sure you know. While everyone who shares here does so in the spirit of helpfulness, there are times when some help is not helpful at all, in fact counter productive and discussion destroying. Your hotline information might have been welcome in many other threads and added to the weave of a discussion. Here it was the knife that cut the cords and no claim of concern, or virtue signalling, makes it alright. The CONTENT of your post is not as objectionable to me as the LOCATION of it.

Having said all that, you are as free and right to post what you feel you need to post, no matter what my or anyone else's opinion of it is. You post what you feel you have to to save lives. I will post that I have rolled my eyes and muttered 'oh my god, really? Here?' under my breath. Okay. Full disclosure. It was not under my breath. Everyone heard me.

Edited to add: This post has been edited at the behest of moderators. If posts that follow make no sense that's because I removed some content here after the fact. I am not sure if the edits made have made this post acceptable or not.

edj3

Runor, I love you.

jaycee49

Simbobby, what a horrible experience. Something similar happened to a friend of my DH. He almost died. He sued the gastro. Guess what? That gastro was mine, too. They are trying to squeeze more patients/procedures in to a shorter time to make more $$$. There is more pressure on doctors now from insurance and hospital corporations to make more $$$. It is an unworkable situation that will implode at some point. Medical errors kill more people than anyone can imagine. Have you seen this colonoscopy doctor? I would have to fume at her for a long time to get closure.

prehistoricmom

Runor, I am not a psychologist, I am a psychotherapist. I have no ethical obligation to disclose in this forum and I have been completely honest about my intentions in the four days I have been in the community chat rooms. You are wrong to attack me repeatedly when I came for support and to listen to others.

wrenn

Edited to withdraw my contributions. I don’t think I have a place in this conversation. I’m too confused.

Moderators

Folks,

We have been watching this thread. It seems to us that Prehistoricmom was not trying to do anything but offer a line of assistance for those who may be reading this thread (though not posting) that may need the hotline. In fact, we Mods, post this hotline routinely when there is any talk of self-harm or ending one's life, in case it can be of help -- we would be remiss not to.

Please get this conversation back on track and understand that everyone here is just trying to be helpful -- there are no bad intentions. Thank you for understanding and moving along.

--The Mods

wrenn

dear mods with respect that explanation was given and rejected. Please reread Runors post

edj3

Mods, this is the second time you've come into a thread where there's disagreement but not nastiness and made a warning like this. Just stop. We're adults dealing with difficult situations and sometimes people post things that really truly don't belong here or we have questions about why they're posting something. And you intervene like a net nanny. We're ADULTS. We can have disagreements. That's the mark of a healthy set of forums.

I left that last thread because I had legitimate questions about the OP. You shot down four of us super hard, and at least one left the boards for good. Is that the goal? To have us all hold hands and sing around a campfire? If that's the case, please say so. While I get a lot of value from the posters' perspectives, I don't get enough to stay for that kind of behavior for mods. And yes, I've modded on highly active, very contenious boards. I do know what I'm talking about.

bcincolorado

Simbobby how terrible for you. So glad you pushed to see your primary doc to get taken care of since that can be life threatening in itself. Glad you are on finally on the mend.

jaycee49

Prehistoric, let me ask you something. Did you post the suicide prevention hotline number on any other threads you frequent? Like that one about a game. Why not? Someone could be reading and not posting there and be really depressed about not understanding the game. I was trying to have a serious discussion of the medical aid in dying topic and the differences among state laws in the US and also the laws in Canada. I was truly insulted by your posting of the hotline number in the middle of that discussion. There are certain nuances to discussions on this forum which are only appreciated with experience.

Mods, are there any mods who have stage IV BC? Just wondering.

Beesie

Simbobby, I'm so sorry. What a miserable experience. I'd be livid at the doctor and I'd make sure she knew.

This is a thread for venting. That means that we may have people posting here, or reading here, who are fed up and frustrated and angry. Some might be at the end of their rope. With that consideration, I don't have any problem with the posting of a suicide prevention hotline telephone number.

Some posts in this thread over the past week or so have included serious, and sometimes humorous, takes on how those who are terminally ill might choose to die with dignity. To my way of thinking, death with dignity is completely different from suicide. I believe that human beings should be allowed to choose to end their lives when confronted with a terminal disease and pain and/or total loss of physical or mental capabilities. Since I see suicide and death with dignity to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, I made no connection between the posting of a suicide prevention hotline telephone and the death with dignity discussion.

Both topics are valid within this thread, I think. Perhaps the problem was only including both topics in the same post, and not providing enough clarity that there was no connection. Personally I thought that was made clear by the line "100% support people's right to choose death w/dignity" but I guess that wasn't clear enough for some. And as I've been reading these posts and thinking about it, while perhaps it would have been better to have a sharper separation between these two topics, it's also occurred to me that if someone is reading this thread who is currently physically healthy but is at the end of her rope, frustrated and angry, perhaps those posts explaining how one can end one's life might plant an idea. Given that, I can see some validity in posting a suicide prevention number while at the same time maintaining a positive and respectful, and sometimes humorous, discussion about how to die with dignity, when the time comes.

Edited for typos only.

runor

Prehistoric, I apologize for getting your title wrong, my bad.

I apologize also that my way of expressing myself offended you or anyone else.

However, to the general claim that everything everyone offers is done for the good of the community and offered in the spirit of helping, I say no. No. Not everything that is said is in the spirit of goodness. If you come across a fire and you have liquid in your hand and you throw it on the fire and the liquid happens to be gasoline, you can claim the high moral ground all you want but you made a bad situation worse. As Jaycee pointed out, there is equal likelihood that suicidal people are reading each and every thread on this site and it would be absolutely fitting for Prehistoric to post her suicide prevention hotline in every other thread she posts on. Just in case. As far as I can tell it was only posted here, where people were rightly discussing some very weighty and serious topics. And where the mention of a suicide hotline could be perceived as a moral judgement. Not as help, but as a smackdown for having such drastic thoughts.

I am sorry that I took issue with this, but I did. It struck me as .... wow. It struck me as minimizing the real suffering that people bring here. It struck me as a conversation killer. It struck me as the wrong topic at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is so hard to talk to our loved ones about our upcoming death. They can't hear it. They don't want to hear it. When we can't have the truth of our death heard and witnessed, it can alienate us. It makes us feel like we have to take our dirty little dying from this nasty little cancer and shuffle off to a corner and keep it to ourselves where no one has to be bothered by the enormity and finality we face. SO WE TALK HERE.

Mods, I apologize because I know you would like me to shut up on this topic. While Prehistoric may not have intended harm, I feel it happened anyway. Perhaps I need to learn to be a bit more gracious. Fair enough. In that exact same vein Prehistoric might need to learn to read the temperature of the room a bit more clearly. There is a time and place..this wasn't it. I have said my piece, got my thoughts out. I will now shuffle off to practice playing nice in the sandbox. Obviously I need LOTS of practice!

jaycee49

Beesie, she didn't even leave a space/blank line.

"100% support people's right to choose a death w/dignity. Just in case, posting suicide prevention hotline: 800-273-8255 or text HOME to 741741"

I'm also getting some kind of text box pop up on my screen sometimes when I hover over the number. Annoying.