STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER

mara51506

Reading further back into the thread, I have come to agree with runor and the others. What people are talking about is NOT suicide, they are talking about having the ability to pass away on their own terms. Some of us will face that sooner as opposed to later. It is better to have a plan in place and they should not have to suffer. A suicide hotline number is inapproriate given the discussion and that is what people are saying.

AliceBastable

IF the hotline number had been inserted into a conversation in the Stage IV only threads, that would be in questionable taste. This particular conversation is open to any member, at any stage, with any mental/emotional outlook. There is nothing in the "Steam room for anger" title that says "everyone here must think in lockstep with certain frequent posters." Especially when some of those posters who are NOT Stage IV specialize in stirring up drama.

bennybear

I think our society just avoids talking about death. Sex politics religion, ok but not death. Something that is completely normal. I too am inspired by many brave women on here. I lost a friend to cancer this year and fortunately she was in Canada. There seems also to be confusion about what is normal and what is depression. So many elderly are put on antidepressants for normal feelings. I recognize they have their place.

So I too am a little passionate, I felt when our elderly dog died we were kinder to him than humans. Yet I too have mixed feelings. Appreciate the honest discussion!

Cowgirl13

I've been reading this forum for several weeks and it is so helpful especially the talk of dying with dignity. I'm 73, out from cancer 10 years ago, and everything seems ok for now although that could change tomorrow. I love that you all blast off too. Thank you for being here.

TB90

Suicide by definition is choosing to end your life. No one has the right to judge whether or not it is dignified or timely. Depression is as serious an illness as cancer and having had both, I would far rather die from cancer. A suicide help line, with trained staff, would respond completely differently to an individual in end stage cancer as to a teen in crisis. But both are planning suicide. I hope no one ever views a suicide help line as a judgement on their decision. Also, to be very clear, discussing suicide never plants a seed. The more discussions, the fewer tragic suicides. What we all want is for everyone to be aware of all the resources, treatment options and facts, before making a decision. Once that decision is made, unless it is a child or mentally compromised adult, they should be supported in their decision. Judgement needs to be replaced with respect. Any end of life decisions need to be given the compassion, respect and urgency that these decisions demand and deserve

LoriCA

TB90, with all respect you cannot compare your experience with early stage cancer to how those of us with metastatic cancer are going to die,and say that you would rather die from cancer than from depression. At least if you die from depression, it will be over quickly. Those of us who are metastatic will likely have a long, drawn-out, and painful death (unless our heart stops first from cardiotoxic treatments). When every second of every day is excruciating physical pain that has you screaming out loud but they can't give you more morphine because more will stop your breathing, when you no longer have control of your bladder and bowels, when you can't get out of bed because the cancer has destroyed your bones, when every breath is painful because the cancer has destroyed your lungs, when you can no longer keep food down and your loves ones are considering a feeding tube unless you have an Advance Directive in place making sure they don't, not to mention the depression that goes along with all of it as things just get worse and worse every day... you might have some different feelings about preferring to die from cancer. Add on top of that the pain and anguish it causes loved ones to see you like that every day and not be able to do anything about it.. I already had a small taste of it when I came close to death a while back, and I can tell you that knowing I'm going to go through it again one day scares the hell out of me.

The cancer IS going to kill us, we are not deciding to end our lives, we are deciding how bad to let things get before we ease our pain and the pain of our loved ones. I'm very grateful that I live in a state with a Right To Die law.

mara51506

Again to be clear, choosing how you pass away from a terminal illness is NOT suicide as has been said many times. It is choosing not to suffer in agony and die a painful death. Choosing to pass away peacefully is the compassionate end to a horrible disease. NOT SUICIDE. Even early stage cancer patients should recognize that. Depression is not the primary motivator for cancer patients to end, we do not and should not have to suffer when there are peaceful ways to go.

TB90

Choosing to die is suicide. Why is this word so offensive. Do you really believe that those who choose to die due to depression are suffering less than you. How can you compare. Suicide is planning your death. It is not a sin or an offence, even though many feel it should be. Judgement is the issue here. I am so offended that you feel your dx trumps my experience. I would never judge another’s decision based on my personal experience. Glad I am the one answering the phones. I would never, ever, judge based on someone’s personal experience. Or dx. Our bc dx are only a part of our lives. Your experience never trumps mine. And I never judge others based on my experience either.

TB90

Perhaps that is why mental health issues are currently being debated in the states. Because they are not being respected and given the resources needed. Perhaps mass shootings are the result. I am a strong advocate to support all persons and their issues. Not just about mine.

Moderators

As with every thread here, we truly value and appreciate everyone’s thoughts, opinions, and passion. We know how much this community means to everyone, and it’s never our intention to quash anyone, or make them feel as though they’re not free to express themselves.

In a thread like this one, there are going to be MANY opinions, discussions, and yes, rants. Some you may agree with, others not so much. But everyone should be welcome to share here, even if you disagree with what is being said. The point and purpose of Prehistoricmom’s post has been clarified and explained, and at this point, we urge everyone to move forward.

TB90

Please clarify what moving forward means. Not discussing this issue that is so important. Suicide causes more deaths than breast cancer. I cannot ignore the messages in this post. But pm me if you want me to bury my head in the sand and ignore this critical issue. It if I in any way inappropriate here, please be public about accusing me.

Beesie

TB90, technically you are correct. Choosing to end one's life, under any conditions, is suicide. But there is a world of difference between choosing to end one's life on one's own terms before dying from a terminal disease, versus choosing to die when you have decades of life ahead of you. As I said in an earlier post, to me, they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The first person is going to die shortly anyway, and is looking to make the process of death easier and less painful for themselves and their loved ones. This person needs assistance. We want this person to be able to fulfill their desire to die on their own terms.

The second person is not facing death except from suicide. This person needs help from a mental health professional. We hope that this person comes out of their pain and chooses to live.

Both individuals of course need compassion and support and understanding.

We use the same word to describe these two very different situations, but maybe we shouldn't. Maybe if we had different words, more descriptive/explanatory words, we would deal better with both situations.

TB90

Beesie; I agree. But perhaps we should take the stigma out of the word suicide.

Micmel

Alice~My dear. I am stage four. I actually find your last sentence quite offensive considering you have no right to decide what people do or do not post either. Read the post or don’t. But don’t resort to insulting people for sharing honest feelings, just like you did.

mara51506

Last thing I'll contribute to the subject is the link to an interesting read about the terminology of assisted dying that we are talking about. https://www.deathwithdignity.org/terminology/ Worth a read and clarifies things well.

mara51506

This topic is very divisive indeed. Truth is, I don't consider it suicide because the patient is not choosing to die. In fact terminally ill people would rather be able to live. The physician assisted dying is part of death with dignity as it is known more correctly. The patient is choosing not to die a long drawn out death that will happen anyway.

As said above, suicide is different as the person is not imminently dying but chooses to take their life for various reasons, depressions traumas etc. Both are tragic but are not the same thing. There are better names for what it is and we should all have the right to it. I won't speak further on this topic as I have said all I need to but I do feel strongly that we should differentiate the terminology.

https://www.deathwithdignity.org/terminology/

mara51506

Oh, and by the way, being Stage 4 will give a person a different perspective and focus than early stage cancer since Stage 4 is incurable and ultimately terminal. Our focus is on quality of life and in some cases quality of death without extra suffering. We spend the rest of our lives in treatment that does not end until we ultimately pass away. We deal with side effects of drugs that keep us alive but sometimes do not work and leave some us so completely sick that it becomes important to have the right to pass away without pain and suffering. It is not suicide, we are going to die of this disease anyway. That is why I take umbrage at the use of the word suicide or the assumption that if I want help to pass away easily without pain it is because I am depressed. That really is not correct.

Artista928

I see the advantage of having the suicide number posted. Not everyone with cancer really wants to die. I know some stage 4 that are in bad shape that don't. Ultimately it's up to you. Calling the suicide line allows people who want to talk to someone to do so. Not everyone has someone to talk to. Ultimately it's bouncing off your feelings and thoughts about your situation. I didn't get the backlash of this being posted. I've called that line before when I was in a bad way before cancer. I had nobody. And if I need someone to talk to healthy or not, that is an option. OP wasn't trying to say no or imply it's wrong to feel that way, just for peeps who don't know resources are there should you want to use it. Let's chill.

Artista928

The definition of suicide is knowingly doing something to yourself to expedite your passing. There's nothing wrong with that imo healthy or not. I can distinguish between those who should seek mental health tx and those who are ill and want to check out. Not everyone is mentally rehabitible and if the mental pain is too much, that should be up to the person instead of being in mental and the physical pain it causes in misery in and out of psych wards. So I for one am not hung up on the term because that is the definition. There are circumstances that people should understand why the person wants to end their life/commit suicide.

TB90

Differentiate the terminology because those “choosing” to die are different. Having worked in this field for 35 years and experienced the loss of those dying due to mental health issues and working with their families and communities, dying from depression is equally painful. No one dies quickly and painlessly from depression. Most die after years of pain, homelessness, poverty, isolation, incarceration, rejection, disease, abuse, and humiliation. Disease and health are not even identified. Many dying of suicide may not even be aware of disease within their bodies. Breast cancer is horrific, but so are so many afflictions. Depression is one of the most common and terminal illnesses in third world countries. But the stigma prevents persons from asking for help and treatment. Suggestion in that depressed individuals have options for treatment is a myth. The stigma here only exemplifies the issue. Depression is a terminal illness due to stigma and serious lack of resources. Lets all advocate for health for all. Not just for our health issues.

AliceBastable

Micmel, I stand by what I said because some people were piling on a new poster who was trying to be helpful, and acting like she had committed a faux pas in trying to crash a private high school club. If my calling out their rudeness is also rudeness, so be it. When I post on a topic like this where emotions run high, I always specify that I do not speak for Stage IV patients because they have their own circumstances that I could not begin to understand. Other early-stage posters seem to feel differently about doing that. BTW, I have another health issue that will make me someday face the same decision that this conversation is addressing, and I was in no way offended by the suicide prevention number being posted. I lost a friend who had a planned passing, and all who knew her understood that it was the disease she endured that was her real cause of death. But not everyone has that conviction to end things on their own terms, or understands the difference between a final plan at X point in time versus trying to get through a temporary setback. Those people might very well benefit from talking anonymously to a trained support person.

Micmel

as I said opinions are opinions. I breathe on one lung, can’t feel one Arm, the other has lymphadeama! I know health issues. I just witnessed my father’s passing on May 11 in front of my eyes. I know about death. I’m staring down the barrel. I had no problem with any number posting. It’s when the insulting starts, knowing it’s an already hot topic makes me scratch my head a little and wonder what purpose that could possibly solve

Micmel

I’ll start today’s rant for myself! I AM OUT OF COFFEE! omg now that’s a crisis! Love to all

mara51506

That really is a crisis.

Micmel

santabarbarian

TB90, I understand your earlier comment re depression vs cancer.

My oldest friend suffers from awful treatment-resistant depression. She is a loving, intelligent, generous and overall WONDERFUL person, but can't manage to feel wonderful about herself. She suffers intense emotional pain, feelings of despair, worthlessness, hopelessness, etc.

When I was in the midst of getting chemo, she also went through a down period... and when we were catching up on the phone she said "I am just so *ashamed*-- I feel guilty even talking about it with you-- I mean, for God's sake, it's not like I have cancer!"

My reply was, "Honestly, I'd rather have cancer than depression." And she burst into tears on the phone... because she was so grateful that I understood how bad her depression was.

Re end of life, I am not stage 4, but I reserve the right to have a less-ugly exit, at the time of my choosing, if I get there. Or if there's some other non-cancer illness that ruins my QOL. And I am the least suicidal person I know.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't believe that dignified death equals suicide, just as I don't believe that applying euthanasia to a beloved pet is the same as killing it...

Since my diagnosis I thought about "thousand ways to die"... I don't deny it. That is suicide. I won't do it, but I don't believe in stigmatizing suicide. In fact, there are philosophies such as Buddhism, Sufism and others that they practice "conscious death", go into deep meditation and breathe slower and slower until they die ... That is suicide too. They simply feel that they have already fulfilled their mission in life and commit suicide "consciously" They are different points of view.

I may be wrong, but I believe that our souls are the ones who choose when and how we die ... although at our human eyes it seems cruel, unfair, tremendous. Although it seems accidental, although it seems that we were murdered, etc. It's my belief, I just share it, I don't try to impose it on anyone

TB90

Santabarbarian: Thanks for your ability to understand what your friend was going through. We all need a friend like you. But we all have so much more in common than we realize. Whether it is suicide or end of life planning, I believe that death is not the goal. Instead it is ending the pain. Lets all support one another in as many pain free days as we can. This we all have in common.

ddfair

TB90,

Well said. Yes, let's all support one another in as many pain free days as we can. Especially wishing pain free days to dear Lita who is such an inspiration.

De

DogMomRunner

Yndorian - I like the way you think. Euthanasia translated is "good death". My husband is a veterinarian and this is what he practices in his work, a good, painless, comfortable end. I also believe that suffering of any kind human or animalneeds to be alleviated.