STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER

jaycee49

I knew someone like that. I told her to get her own email address if she wanted to email with me. She did.

exbrnxgrl

Maybe I am missing something, but isn’t it an individual/mutual choice of couples to refer to themselves as “we” if they choose? We have had few very concerned partners post on bco, using the pronoun we, and for them, it seems not only comfortable but helps deal with the disease from a unified, team perspective.

This wouldn’t work for me, personally, but if they’re comfortable with it, why knock it

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yes, of course. We all deserve respect. And we are all different and we all have our own terrible personal misfortunes. And we do not know each other. Each of us is bothered by something different. And this thread is about venting what bothers us. It is not about being judged because of what bothers us.If I'm wrong, correct me. But feelings comes out as it comes out. I'm sorry if I hurt someone's feeling. All of us already have enough on our plate to be hurting each other. And I apologyze too about my bad english, google translator makes the work for me and sometimes it is not good enough

exbrnxgrl

yndorian,

¡No té preocupes! Yes, I know that this is a place to vent but I guess I’m just thinking about a man (very, sincere, committed and loving) who has been posting recently using plural pronouns. He is clearly distraught over his wife’s circumstances but it seems as if they find the plural pronouns to be a way to express unity and strength. Not my way, but it’s not such an odious thing for people who find it comforting.

I often think of a post about the “proper” way to behavior prior to a bmx. This was sparked by a video clip of a San Francisco doctor dancing in the OR prior to her surgery. Some folks were outraged and condemned her, going so far as saying she had mental problems! Well, I guess I do too as I spent my pre-op time laughing and joking with my family, plastic surgeon and nurses. I was told that “proper” behavior should have included, quiet weeping, appropriate levels of sadness etc., but no smiling or laughing! I understand that this is how the member felt and others may as well, but not me (I had lots of time to cry and understand the gravity of the situation beforehand). Humor helps me relax and that was what I needed.

PS: Soy de el Bronx. Hay muchas personas allá que hablan Español y en California también, dónde vivo ahora.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Exbrnxgrl: Our posts have been crossed! I did not say it to you, not at all! HUGS

De verdad aprecio mucho tus palabras, amiga

Artista964

Just think if someone or the loved one is reading this. You are in a way attacking them here on this board. This is a cancer board. So what if some people are posting like this. Seriously, if the pt likes it that's their biz, and none of yours. You don't like it for you fine, but don't put down what feels right to others! Don't whine about what other cancer pts do or don't do. Whine about people things that actually affect your own life.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mara: I'm sorry about what you've been through with your mother. I'm sure it was very hard in all aspects. I am in a similar situation although my path just starts. My posting was not an answer to yours, sometimes the posts cross. Hugs

ctmbsikia

This is what sort of drew me to this topic. Everyone needs a steam room for anger. A place to finally tone down the "right" thing to feel, the "right" thing to say, the proper way to react, and all the BS relationship crap. Let all out, take a deep breath and with any luck (and maybe a few drinks) we can gain a better perspective on whatever it is that is pissing us off!

mara51506

Like I said, I think everyone will choose what works best for them. Everyone has the right to post their experience the same as we can agree or disagree on different things.

To be clear, she never said we about my stuff nor did I say we about her lung cancer. I did not lose my mobility or life. Yet. Having said that we need to have more awareness and compassion for caregivers too. Their bodies also go through great amounts of stress watching us suffer and the we is their way of supporting us but also to show empathy. People can tell their caregiver if they don't like it.

I compare it to think positive. I personally hate that expression but some find it motivating. That's what I think of this we debate. Some have a dislike which is OK, some don't mind.

mara51506

I also agree about the purpose of this thread. Let out stuff without fear of reprisal and not to hurt people in our lives with it. Helps manage our stress better.

wrenn

Ironic(?) to see posts expressing anger over the way posts expressing anger are expressed on the express anger thread. :-)

exbrnxgrl

I’m not angry in the least over the pronoun issue. It’s clearly not for everyone, myself included, but I do acknowledge the possibility that those who use it feel united and strong as they go through this together. I suspect that folks who say we and our have usually faced adversity as a team and view fighting bc the same way. That’s all

Beesie

I'm perfectly fine if a spouse says that "We are seeing the oncologist" or "We are getting ready for surgery".

I am not fine when a spouse says "We are having surgery" (or chemo or any treatment) because the spouse is not having their body cut into and will not be dealing with the pain and physical and emotional side effects. The spouse will have their own experiences as a care-taker, and that is important and relevant, but they are not the same. I can tell you that I certainly have no idea what was going through my DH's mind and what his worries were when I was surgery. I was having my experiences and he was having his. We were going through it together, but we each had our own roles and experiences.

I am also not fine when a spouse says "We are trying to decide on whether or not to have chemo" (or any decision about the treatment). This type of statement concerns me because I believe that it is ALWAYS the patient who gets to decide. The patient will hopefully rely heavily on expert input from doctors and may also put a lot of weight on personal input from family members, but decisions on surgery and chemo should not be a 50/50 thing between the spouses - if it is, the patient risks not being able to do what she really wants because of pressure from the spouse or because she feels the need to placate or agree with the spouse. It's "our" decision, after all.

I think it's wonderful to have a supportive spouse who is truly a partner as one goes through all the crap related to a cancer diagnosis. I am not putting down spouses (or other family members) or suggesting that they shouldn't be fully involved. But I believe that patients must have their own voices and both partners should understand this and encourage it. The patient comes first. The patient is the decider. When either a patient or a spouse use the term "we" for everything related to the diagnosis and treatment, by definition the patient is only 50% of the pair. I think that subjugates the patient and minimizes the patient's experience. It in effect says that the physical and emotional experience of the spouse or family member is the same as the experience of the patient. It's not. A cancer diagnosis and cancer treatment is personal and intimidate. Some of the emotional aspects of the experience might actually be more difficult for the partner, but the physical experiences are borne by the patient alone. "We" are not having a mastectomy. "We" are not losing our hair from chemo. "We" are not experiencing life altering QOL side effects from endocrine therapy.

That's my vent. If any spouses or family members or patients are reading who use "we" and "our" throughout the entire cancer experience, I won't apologize for posting this in a thread set up for venting. While I don't expect anyone who uses the "we" to change how they talk/post, maybe they will gain some appreciation for why this bothers me and so many others here.

bennybear

beesie, well said!

Spookiesmom

My DH and I have cancer. His is prostate, mine Bc. So yes, “we” have cancer.

This frys me in the same way a male says “we” are pregnant. Unless there’s been a medical miracle, no, mister, “we” aren’t pregnant. Your wife or SO is.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Wrenn: yes, it's totally ironic.

Beesie: I agree with you.

Spookiesmom: you made me laugh. I'm sorry because it's a serious issue, but you have the right to tell "we".

Beyond the topic we are discussing, it seems to me that we should all be able to express ourselves in this thread without being told "you should not say this". You can tell me you feel/think differently, it is ok, but do not censor me precisely in this thread. Each one of us simply complains about what bothers us. It should not be taken as something personal, it is written in the rules of the thread.

Lita57

Use whatever makes you comfortable.

I've had friends in the past who had to shoulder so much of the caregiver crap, that they actually became ill because of the stress and strain and DIED before their cancer-ridden spouse did. (I worry about my own DH in this regard.)

Did "they" have cancer? No, only the one spouse had it, but they may as well BOTH have had it because the outcome was the same: They both died...the caregiver dying long before they should have.

I know some of you will just say, "Oh, that was just a coincidental." Bullcrap!!!! I've seen it happen too many times to be considered "mere coincidence."

So, if saying "we" have cancer makes it easier to cope with this miserable hell, you gotta do AND say whatever you gotta do and say.

Who am I - or anyone else for that matter - to judge?

L

mara51506

I totally agree Lita.

Lita57

I will say one more thing and get off, or I'll start crying - and I'm normally NOT a crier.

My St 4 is getting worse to the point where I'm in so much pain and so weak that I need help getting up off the toilet, help bathing, and can't be left at home alone anymore because I've had too many face plants. My DH is my primary c'giver. He has to do so much now, but he bravely soldiers on.

And when I see the look on his face sometimes, it TOTALLY and UTTERLY breaks my heart. And my DD...don't get me started.

Yes, I'M THE ONE who has to go for blood draws, IV chemo sessions, scans, see the dr., etc.., but my entire family has to SUFFER all because of my second spouse, Mr. Cancer's shenanigans.

Do "we" all have cancer? No, technically only I do. But I will tell you this for free: when my mom had deadly soft-tissue sarcoma, we ALL had to go thru it and take turns driving her to appts, sitting with her, etc. And I'll never forget what my father said 45 years ago, "Well, we all have cancer now."

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about my mom and those words my dad said, and I realize that my DH and DD will have to deal with all this for DECADES to come long after I'm gone.

So yes, in my family "WE" have cancer.

L

mara51506

I also do not agree with saying people are whining on here. This is a safe space. If family are reading these boards, they may get hurt. Although it is a public forum, there is a reason we stay anonymous. Here we can safely vent or say things we cannot say to family.

There has been a lot of judgment on this thread lately. We should be supporting each other, not tearing each other down.

Lita57

My DH needs to start his own thread because of all the crap he has to deal with in my regard.

Because of Mr. Cancer, I YELL at him, SWEAR at him, and here lately, I've actually HIT HIM in my frustration. We've been together for OVER 30 years, and I've never exhibited this type of behavior before, maybe it's the Tx and all the steroids.

Yes, I realize we both have "our own" experiences, with Mr. C, but is HIS emotional pain any less powerful than mine? I can take other drugs to relieve some of the physical SE symptoms, but what does he get to do? Stand on the sidelines and watch, nurse his aching back from lifting my fat ass up off the toilet and off the bed, and sometimes get verbally abused as I deal with my frustration over all this.

I actually asked both DH and DD how they felt b4 I sat down to write this particular post, and they said, "No, we don't technically have cancer, but we have to deal with the aftermath and all the other crap." So, tangentially, we ALL have cancer.

But like I said, use whatever terms make you feel better...and don't criticize others for the choices they have made in terms of dealing with this effing beast.

L

Beesie

Lita, the experience for a spouse or family care-giver can be awful. I have no doubt that it can cause physical illness. If a spouse says "our lives revolve completely around breast cancer" or "this cancer is hell for us". I'd be totally understanding and sympathetic. I would be interested to hear more about what the spouse is going through, because spouses need support too. To take my earlier post one step further, as I see it, using "we" to talk about experiences that are unique to the patient not only minimizes the patient's experience, but it might also minimize the difficulties experienced by a spouse or family member. When "we" have to get through surgery and chemo, the whole other set of less in-your-face issues faced by the spouse probably don't get much attention.

Maybe my feeling about this is biased by the fact that most of the time when I see someone posting on this site using "we", it's a spouse or family member who comes across as being a fair bit controlling. Or it's a patient who comes across as being meek. Lita, definitely not talking about you on that one.

Edited to add: Lita, we were writing at the same time. I understand the statement "We all have cancer". Everyone's life has been taken over by your cancer, so yes, you all have cancer. Would you also say "We are having chemo next week?" Or "The doctor said that we have to have another surgery"? Maybe I'm parsing words, but I see a difference. I'm trying to understand and expand my views.

Lita57

Depends on how one chooses to view it.

I can't drive anymore because of brain mets, so DH has to drive me to Tx's AND HE SITS with me while I have chemo. So yes, WE are having chemo (as well as blood draws, etc.) and no, he's not in the tube with me while I have PET scans and MRI's, but he has to give up HOURS of his day to cart me around.

So frustrating. Can't wait until I can "transition" and this is all over with.

Lita57

My wedding vows 30 years ago said, "In sickness and in health," so as a married couple we both DO have to share the experience.

It's ok, for me anyway, if DH want to use the term "we have cancer."

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Lita: I've been thinking about you and I just asked for you in your own thread. It is a terribly difficult situation for you and your family, and I am very sorry. I wish this was just a word choice problem. HUGS

Beesie

Lita, thank you for the reply. I understand what you are saying and I understand how it applies in your situation. You, your DH and DD are going through an almost unfathomable experience that binds you together. I am so sorry that you all are going through this.

Betrayal

To quote John Donne: "No man is an island, entire of itself" ... so while we may be the ones who have BC, the disease does have an impact on our loved ones. The impact may be direct or indirect depending upon circumstances, but who can really gauge what it is? So the semantics of "we" versus "I or me" really boils down to how much we want others to participate or engage in our experience. Some opt to include and recognize the toll it takes on their loved ones and others opt to limit it to only their personal experience.

It would seem this conversation has been cathartic for some and upsetting for others but this site is about rants and ranting with the right to express anger about any situation that evokes this emotion.

Lita, I admire you for defending your stance. I thank you for sharing your experience and that of your DH and DD.

Artista964

I agree with you Lita. People should lay off judging and criticizing how they describe their experience with cancer shit. What started this is the OP who wanted to ask the cancer pt using we if they were conjoined at the hip or somethingto that effect. . Rude! Good she refrained!

I will say that I went through it pretty stress free. My bro however looked and reacted like it was him. Did I get upset? Nope. He needs to handle it and will react in his way. To tell someone you can't say that when clearly they are suffering too is not being kind and compassionate to your loved one. For some like me it's much easier to be the pt than a loved one. My dad had a stroke. As a result my bro is a big time caregiver who has set aside much of his life to help dad. No way would my dad think to correct him if he said we have an appt. My dad is so grateful for his help for without it he'd be in assisted living and not at home. If a loved one is dialed in to you, who cares what pronoun is used??? Seriously be grateful you have the support. Many are alone and would love to have a we important instead of being alone. Sounds to me like maybe there are issues going on, and not just the use of that pronoun. Always be grateful for your helpers. Think about them too. And seriously, what's with the nitpicking. Ask yourself honestly that question. Chances are it could be something deeper going on.

AliceBastable

Lita, you have earned the right to use whatever words you want by now. Your family sounds wonderful.

I don't drive. My husband takes me everywhere. So when I've had appointments, tests, surgeries, and radiation, he can certainly say "We went to radiation" or "We went for a biopsy." But if he said "We had surgery" or "We had radiation," I'm gonna have some seriously pointed words with him. And for those who objected to my original post about this, did you miss that the post that annoyed me wasn't on this site? So the couple I mentioned, using no names, aren't here. And the fact that I had to snoop on their registration page to determine which one was the patient was a pain, plus it felt intrusive. They carried it to such a Borg extreme.

Patients go through hell. Caregivers go through hell. But it's not quite the same hell. So if I want to ask another patient what they felt about or how they reacted to some treatment or experience, I want to know that I'm talking to the person whose body and mind has been through it. NOT their caregiver. Those are MY rights.

exbrnxgrl

Hey Lita,

You said what I was, less skillfully, trying to say about those controversial plural pronouns. That “we” means something elemental to you and your family. It may not work for everyone but what does? You are lucky to have all that love and caring. Take care.