I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

River_Rat

iodine, within your post there is a line that really speaks to me,

"(don't get me wrong, if I was in one of those horrible places with no law or education, I'd want to improve my family's life, too). "

How many of us feel the same?  I know I do.

rosemary-b

River Rat

I do too. 

I don't know the answer but I think our immigration sysem is broken and needs to be fixed and that those who come here and work with none of the benefits or protections given to legal workers are treated unjustly and deserve a better deal which could include a pathway to citizenship, if certain conditions were met (and I have no idea what those conditions should be.).

Bren-2007

Rosemary .. dontcha know they're ILLEGAL and don't deserve any protections.  They deserve all the crappy jobs and work conditions they have, and the migrant workers in Calif. deserve to live in tents with no amenities!  'jusy sayin'  They aren't human beings .. they're just ILLEGALS!

Bren

Bren-2007

Or we could cede Texas back to Mexico and round up all the ILLEGALS and move them to the former state of Texas!  Just one solution that comes to mind.

Bren

pip57

Bren,  you are right.  If they would just do their crappy jobs and be quiet then we could all ignore the issue and get on with our own lives.  Geeez...

Medigal

Isn't there supposed to be a "quota" of immigrants our country is supposed to be allowed to accept? I think many of you who feel so sorry for the illegals are missing the point that they are not adhereing to the "quota" and just flooding in any way they can.  They are also causing problems for those who are trying to do it the right way.  So if a guy needs food for his family, it is ok for him to shoot the grocer who needs to charge him for that food to feed "his" family?  We can twist this up a thousand ways and try to make others seem cruel and uncaring for their opinions but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong!  The main wrong is with our own country who knows what is going on and refuses to take charge of the situation and put together a way to allow our quota of immigrants to get in legally and STOP the others from pushing their way to the front of the line, IMO, by sneaking in.

My anger with this situation is not with the people sneaking in but with a government of weak officials who won't take charge of this situation so it can be done right. Our companies here should not be taking advantage of these desperate people by giving them less in salaries or bad working conditions.  But take one thing for granted, many US workers are working for quite a bit less in pay than they would normally get due to the economic conditions of our country.  Many companies have completely stopped giving raises and practically every young person I know is holding down two and sometimes three jobs just to make ends meet!  The ones that don't are having to depend on parents for financial help.  These are NOT the "good ole days" in the US!

IronJawedBCAngel

In an interview on the Today show not long ago, an immigration attorney stated that it can cost anywhere from $20,000 and above for an unsponsored individual to get their immigration status approved.  My grandparents certainly did not have to deal with anything like that in their desire to come here and achieve the American dream.  Those with ample funds can get an attorney and eventually get their green cards.  The extremely poor individual wanting a better life for their family does not have that opportunity and will take the risk of coming here illegally.  The fact is that if we physically were able to round up every illegal and deport them, many businesses and industries would not be able to open the following day. There is going to have to be some kind of amnesty for those that have been contributing law abiding members of our society. There is no easy solution to this, but I believe we need to strengthen our borders, and make the employers responsible for verifying social security numbers. A poll was just conducted in Tennessee that resulted in 60% approving giving illegals a path to citizenship.  Personally, I hope the Dream Act legislation is approved.

rosemary-b

Bren Silly me . I thought they were human beings, just like me.

I think a path to citizenship could have a penalty, probably monetary,  a fine for coming in illegally, if  a punishment for their crime is necessary.

As for illegal is illegal, am I the only one here who occasionally exceeds the speed limit? I admire all of you who have never broken any law.

BarbaraA

What Medigal said. I think it is a far cry from speeding to sneaking into a country and using that state's services (schools, hospital ER's, etc.).

Bren-2007

IronJaw .. I too hope the Dream Act is passed.  I hope it comes up for vote again.

Bren

IronJawedBCAngel

Well, if we are going to deport all of the "illegals" for the audacity of wanting to live the American dream, can we also deport all of those who cheat on their taxes and defraud this country of the funds it needs to operate?  After all, illegal is illegal and the punishment should fit the crime.

Anonymous

Ummmmm...what part of the word illegal do you NOT understand?

Medigal

rosemary-b:  This is NOT apples and oranges.  No, I don't purposely break any laws because I don't like to pay fines or get a bad record.  Horrible me!  Going 5 miles over the speed limit is NOT the same as sneaking into a country and not taking the proper steps to become a legal citizen of that country.  I don't want your admiration.  I just would like to see you look at this in the correct context of the situation.  Wrong is wrong!  We need to protect our borders so these people can know they have to do it the "right" way.  I feel for these people but I feel more for the problems of my own people in the US. 

Bren-2007

Laura .. how do you propose we get read of all the ILLEGAL people in our country?  Maybe we could send them to Canada.  We aren't having much luck getting them back to Mexico and South America.

Bren

Anonymous

IronJawedBCAngel

The fact is that if we physically were able to round up every illegal and deport them, many businesses and industries would not be able to open the following day. There is going to have to be some kind of amnesty for those that have been contributing law abiding members of our society.

When you have illegal immigrants coming into an area, that puts a strain on the infrastructure, on the schools, on the stock of affordable housing, on transportation resources.  if that area has high unemployment, like virtually all of this country currently does right now, that increases the difficulty of citizens and those who came here legally finding jobs. 

If a business or industry is that heavily dependent on using illegal labor to stay open, then they are probably exploiting the workers' status to cut corners on working conditions and pay.  It is standard to increase pay to entice people to take jobs with less than stellar working conditions or hours.  Most companies pay a premium for night shift or weekend hours.  With a ready, steady supply of illegal workers, no need to pay those premiums.  So there are fewer jobs that pay better then that extended unemployment check.

By definition, illegal immigrants are not law abiding members of society.  They are breaking laws every day by being here.  They are either not paying taxes, or are using a stolen identity to pay them.  They are targets for those who would prey on their vulnerability and reluctance to contact authorities for help if they become victims of violent crime or are abused.

Those legal immigrants who paid thousands of dollars, and waited for approvals, and played by the rules, and who may have family members still waiting to come here are among those most impacted by the large volume of illegal immigrants, and by any future amnesty plans.

rosemary-b

People who come here looking for a better life the only way they know how are not worse than someone who breaks the law (speeding is illegal too, Laura) to get somewhere 5 minutes sooner. Other people can be hurt (if you believe illegals are taking jobs and services from Americans) either way.

I understand the word illegal, it means against the law. When those who hire illegal immigrants have everything that has come to them or their company because of their illegal act taken away, then I thnk it would be fair to deport illegal aliens.

The Dream Act would be a good start.

shokk

It is so interesting to read how compassionate so many are here........

Has anyone every heard the the term "coyote"........and what that means here in Texas, AZ. NM and CA?........

Do you people have any idea what "human traffickers are and what they do to these people that want to "sneak" into this country???????????????

Someone said that it was going to cost someone 20,000 dollars to come here legally?????????

Really........so exactly what is the price that lets say a adult male Mexican citizen worth????????

What about his wife????????

What about his three kids under the age of 13?????......exactly what is their lives worth......10,000......maybe 5.00 dollars a piece..........

 You know what their lives are worth to a Coyote????????absolutely nothing!!!!!!!!!

In liberal terms that would be zero...........

Does anyone here actually read and study exactly what this hard working families go through to get to this country and how many never make it out Mexico with any of their money they have given to some human scum bag and many never make it out with their lives........

Many that do manage to make only get across the border in AZ with kilos of cocaine in their backpacks and automatic weapons aimed at their backs being herded like donkeys again by a coyote.........

 Exactly how many of these people that are looking for a better life actually make it out of the AZ desert?????.....many don't........

If any of you were REALLY concern about these people trying to make it to America for a better life then you would be behind 100% percent sealing our borders (it can be done)......and having the immigration process completely scrapped and completely redone so that it will cost legal immigrants less to come here legally then being brought here by some low life human trafficker that could care less what happens to any of these people or if they live or die.......the coyote is paid up front..........

 So whenever I see some well meaning liberal whining about just about how illegal immigrants are treated what a load of crap........you people could care less about any of these people because instead of just repeating what you think is political correct and what makes YOU LOOK COMPASSIONATE in front of your liberal friends has nothing to do with what these people really go through and is hurting them a heck of a lot more then helping them.........

Stop being political posers and do your research........JMO.........shokk

Anonymous

I speed much less often now that the speed limits have slowly moved back to what the roads were designed for instead of the blatently ignored 55 top speed that the federal government imposed a few years back.  It was downright dangerous to try to go that speed when the roads were designed for faster travel and even the slowest trucks in the right lane were going faster than that. 

Bren-2007

Wow Shok .. now I'm a political poser because I believe in the Dream Act.  I lived in a border town most of my life .. and my dad used illegals to help build his ranch.  I guess I've done my research from personal experience.  Oh .. and I know how to read too.

Bren

shokk

Bren Sweetheart you do realize that the Dream Act is dead right????....It will never make it back to House floor at least in the next two years and more then likely the Democrats will not gain control of the House at the soonest in 4 years........

And you do realize that the Dream Act should be called the Coyote Dream Act because it encourges human trafficking.........that is not the answer.........for anyone.......most of all for the people you guys want to help.......it will make their lives worth less then zero........shokk

rosemary-b

 Shokk

There would be no need for coyotes if we let anybody in from Mexico who wanted to come in. Is that what you are suggesting? Exactly what would  you replace the current system with if it were to be scrapped?  How much less would it cost a legal immigrant to come here?

I have already said the current system is broken and I do not have the answer as to how it should be fixed. If you have that answer please share it with us.

Edited to say I DO NOT have the answer.

Enjoyful

shokk...

What's gotten in to you?  Calling people who disagree "political posers?"  That's not like you, at least not like the "old" shokk.  You disagreed with the left-leaners but you were rarely hateful.  This is sad.

E

ananda8

kadeeb,

I said that Tyson had trouble KEEPING American workers.  The people who cannot find jobs elsewhere do work at Tyson.  The plants are not 100% Hispanic or Somalian.  However, as soon as the Americans can find work elsewhere, they leave.  Imported workers do not have that option. They have little or no English.

The majority of the poor in this country would like to work and do work when jobs are available.  Often they do not have the skills to work anything minimum wage jobs, so they can never get out of poverty.  I use to volunteer with the Literacy Council.  Over 30,000,000 adults in America (14%) fall below the basic level for prose literacy.

Poverty is a serious and growing problem in this country and it is certainly more complex than "poor people and the unemployed don't want to work because they rather be on welfare".

shokk

Bren I don't know when your Dad built his ranch but in the last 20 years things have completely changed as far as illegal immigrants are coming into the United States.........

The Drug Cartel are dealing in humans just as much as they are dealing in drugs......it has become a huge money maker for them........

It has become very unsafe for any Hispanic coming into our country without a "SPONSOR"......for someone to walk across the Rio Grande is usually male without any family because if the coyotes find out that some family member has gone across the border without "their" help then many times a spouse or child is killed back in Mexico for not going through the "proper channels"......

I am sorry but you guys are only looking at this through the rose color glasses of the United States......I don't think any of you understand what is happening in Mexico.......and what those  citizens are living with on a daily basis........and our immigration laws or the lack of us enforcing our immigrations laws are what is behind the gigantic explosion of illegal human trafficking and some really bad, bad people profiting from it.......shokk

Alpal

Shokk - I know that I feel the borders should be sealed and I think that most of the posters on this thread - both left and right - would agree. Even if they were sealed tomorrow that still leaves the problem of what do about the illegals that are already here. Didn't RR back an amnesty bill during his presidency? From what I have read approximately 3 million were granted amnesty. I've also read that part of the bill was strict regulations and heavy fines on employers, which either didn't make it to the final version or was never enforced.

We all agree that illegal immigrants pose a huge problem for our country. I see no reason for you to be demeaning and/or condescending to posters who question what to do about this problem. 

3monstmama

Human trafficking is bad.  But we do all understand that there is more to human trafficking than people coming across from the Spanish speaking countries, right?   There are all the other people brought to work in sweat shops or to provide sexual services.

Focusing on the Hispanic illegal population, there's a great movie called something like "A Day Without a Mexican."  Basically, one morning everyone wakes up and all those darned old immigrant non-citizens are GONE.....Anyone who thinks this country can run one day without all those illegals has never really thought about it.  Honestly, I wish every illegal immigrant in the country would take a holiday and then let everyone see what it would really be like.

I find it absolutely hysterical to read people saying the government should do "more" whatever the devil that means to keep "those" people out and that we should make rules to pay a living wage and that it would be okay to "pay more."

Really?  When our government --state or federal--- tries to pass things like rules about living wages, what happens?  When government changes tax rules so that companies pay more in taxes and less in stock dividends [what people are referring to as "profits"]  what happens? 

Fact is, if prices went up to cover the cost of paying an American citizen to pick lettuce or wash dishes in a restaurant or all those other things those darned people are doing, the same people who want the "illegals" gone would be yelling bloody murder about the high cost of EVERYTHING.

How many who claim to be willing to pay more currently choose to spend their money at Costco and Walmart to save a few bucks, causing the local smaller store to go out of business. How many of you ever---let alone regularly---go to your local farmers market instead of giant chains that import food because you say it "costs too much" even though by buying at the farmer's market you will keep farming in the US and in their community.

And exactly whose children should be taking the job in the chicken factory?  Do you want your child there?  Is that what you want them to aspire to?  How about the lettuce picking? Or maybe you aspire to have a son or daughter picking beans?  Would you really encourage your child spend the summer working in a job where they could lose a limb?  Americans are hired in Alaska to work the fishing boats and in the canneries--how many of you spent your summer working their to earn money for college?  Or sent your children?

The honest distasteful truth is the reason American companies import workers is they cannot get sufficient Americans to take the jobs at the wages they offer.  And they offer those wages because thats what they need to do to make the profit level to pay the dividends that we Americans want in order to fund our retirements.

Very few American companies today are owned by single families---its all shares and stock and multinationals.  Are you all suggesting we cap executive salaries and compensation? 

What an interesting idea. . . .

why are we stopping Canada? Stop Canada from what???? 

pip57

Didn't this discussion start with actually changing the constitution so that children born to illegal immigrants would not be American citizens by birth right?  

The discussion about 'coyotes' and 'mules' is completely different.  Surely you are not implying that by disagreeing about the change of the constitution, one simultaneously agrees that the immigration laws should not be altered?  

Medigal

Gosh Shok, you really shouldn't start calling us names like "liberals" because you don't agree with our opinions.  Why do we have to be given a political tag just because we don't completely agree with you?.  I have great compassion for my fellow man or woman and this has nothing to do with any "liberal" friends I have.  In fact, I don't know what political persausion my friends are and I don't care. What I care about is being able to have a discussion in this thread without being tagged a certain political name.  Do you really think "I" am a liberal?  I am whatever I need to be at any given time so I just don't like being called political tags especially as an insult. 

Maybe you just got confused and forgot which discussion group you were posting to for a moment there.  This is "BCO"!   Thank you for understanding.

"MEDIGURT"   

208sandy

I, too, would like to know what the "Stop Canada!!!!!" is about.

crazy4carrots

I notice that no one here who is supporting a Constitutional amendment has bothered to answer Notself's 4 questions.  Apparently she's not surprised......neither am I!