I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Anonymous

IronJawedBCAngel wrote:

The problem is that those without insurance who have no means to pay are covered by various social programs.  Those of us with poor insurance would be left owing thousands and no means to pay after paying for our mortgages, gas, food, etc.

That is one of my main complaints about the Obamacare Law as it currently stands.  It will cause many more people to pay thousands of dollars every year for inadequate coverage.  There will be more people caught in that limbo of having insurance that they can't afford to use, or that will throw them into financial devastation if they do use it. 

If you think that any insurance is always better than nothing, then you are engaging in magical thinking.  The people with no insurance have programs to turn to, but if you have lousy insurance you are really stuck. 

Anonymous

I thought that those without insurance were left to die in the streets?

lassie11

Laura - could you please provide a reference for your statement? in my research it appears that a lot of countries give citizenship to babies born there. Would your changes only apply to undocumented foreigners? or would it apply to people who are in the country legally but just aren't citizens.

I would object to your use of the term "illegal alien" but my Scottish cousin got denied access to the US and was given a paper calling him that when we tried to take a detour on the south side of the St Lawrence Seaway some years ago (he had a passport but didn't have his visa with him). He was happier with that paper than he would have been to see the US for a couple of hours. I promise he was not about to have a baby there so as to claim US citizenship.

pickle

Arizona residents on medicaid have been thrown off of transplant lists. I call that being left to die in the streets!

Anonymous

AZ had to cut back due to the fact that they're feeding, clotheing and medicating so many illegals and anchor babies. If they eliminated the illegals, they could afford to provide transplants for the legals.

pip57

Well then.  The solution to all of Arizona's problems could be found by changing this part of the constitution.  That makes perfect sense!

But how will all those companies who won't have anymore cheap labour be able to stay in business and pay their taxes?  Hmmmmmm. 

Anonymous

lassie - http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/august-9-2010/uscanada-are-last-remaining-developed-nations-giving-birthright-citizen

pickle

Ok Laura if it's true that they can't afford it because there are so many illegals in the system then how does that justify knocking legal citizens off the list?

bluedahlia

Aliens..........now you're speaking my language.  Star Trek is the best!  You guys on the right should watch it instead of Rush or Beck. 

BarbaraA

Laura, your post intrigued me so I did some research. Here are some more countries.

Australia's birthright citizenship requirements are much more stringent than those of H.R. 1868 and took effect in 2007.

New Zealand repealed in 2006
Ireland repealed in 2005
France repealed in 1993
India repealed in 1987
United Kingdom repealed in 1983
Portugal repealed in 1981

Anonymous

if it's true that they can't afford it because there are so many illegals in the system then how does that justify knocking legal citizens off the list?

I'm not saying it's right...but we simply, "can't have it all"! For every action there's a reaction. Unfortunately, AZ (like all other states) do not have a perpetual blossoming money tree. Wasteful spending is sure to have a ripple effect.

blue - My dh is a die hard Star Trec fan. It's scary...he can actually recite, verbatim, many, many episodes. Scary, scary, scary! lol Oh and btw...he loves Early Grey tea - HOT! LOL

crazy4carrots

From today's Globe & Mail, and the dangers of demagoguery:

A MOMENT IN TIME -- February 9, 1950 - McCarthy Warns of Communists at State Department

"Joseph McCarthy had spent three unremarkable years in the U.S. Senate before his name became synonymous with Cold War hysteria.  At a fiery Lincoln Day speech to a Republican Women's Club in 1950, McCarthy waved a list he claimed held the names of 205 State Dept. employees who were also Communists.  He refused to make the list public and would eventually be censured by the Senate for failing to substantiate his claims -- but not before setting off the infamous McCarthy Era, when everyone from elected politicians to Hollywood stars (and film writers) were accused of harbouring Communist sympathies.  The Wisconsin senator described McCarthyism as "Americanism with its sleeves rolled".  But really, it began as one demagogue with his finger pointed, sowing panic in a fearful nation."

Anonymous

First of all I have no idea who deleted the post.  I would suggest to any poster that if you feel you MAY be deleted, C&P what you post it and repost it. 

I'm not going to argue about how much it cost to give medical care, education, welfare, food stamps, etc. to illegals. 

The question I have for you....illegal vs. legal.  Which is better?  If someone breaks into your house and steals your possessions because they're hungry, would that be okay? 

When I read about the mom who put her two DDs in a different school district for a better education and then found out that she was charged WITH A FELONY and had to serve 10 days in jail...I was livid...the first thing that came into my head was how many illegals are we educating.  And how many illegals are given the same tuition as residents in the state instead of being charge like a non-resident. 

The woman who put her girls in a different school broke the law...now she may not be able to get her teacher's certificate because she's a felon...the judge told her she could not be a teacher.  You see, she was going to school to be a teacher and was working as a teacher's aide.  She has never been in trouble. 

We are not women who do not care about the less fortunate.  But where do we draw the line?  We tolerate illegals getting an education from the tax payer, but we don't tolerate a legal sending her children to school for a better education.  Something's strange.

3monstmama

Hi guys!  I'm on post rationing so this will be long and dirty and probably lead to further deletions.

First off, hugs to Athena and Barbara and Konakat and anyone else dealing with medical stuff today.  I hope all goes very very well.  If you update your status and I don't post its not that I'm not listening, its that I'm on my short leash!  ;-)  . . fyi the deleted post had to do with observing that an app for confession deletes the needed for an intermediary which--as a fallen anglo catholic--sounds to me like that stuff from the protestant reformation. . . amazing what one can remember from private non-secular school so many years ago. . . .  I tell you I was shocked---I was so certain it would be the comment about babies and immigrants.

whoever did the comment about those darned native americans and their lame immigration policy, 2 thumbs up! 

re immigration in general:  Sorry person who believes none of that happened pre 1920 but my sneaky family members slipped over the border pre-1920s, more like late 1800s.  Reading all these posts, I am sad that my fellow Americans have so little knowledge of American history.  Setting aside whether anyone born in the US should or should not be granted citizenship, the vast holes in knowledge and the misstatements being made tell me that the educational system in the US has been worse than I thought for longer than I thought.  Clearly my monsters will be hitting the history books this summer!  For anyone wanting a good read and  very good information on immigration policy in the US check out Ron Takaki's books which are excellent.  Like it or not our policy in the USA was racially based from the start and that includes the attitude towards those wretched Irish [which would include ME!] as expressed by the English who got here first.

Some one listed a bunch of other countries don't let you have automatic citizenship by being born in the country.  Two points:  1.  None of the referenced countries were founded on the idea of being open to the world ----many are monarchies or former monarchies.  Moreover this very thing, lack of automatic citizenship is becoming more and more of an issue in those countries as well because the host country has often encouraged people from other countries to come and work [declining birth rates in western nations leading to an insufficient supply of workers] and then denied citizenship to children of said workers who have never lived anywhere else.   2. In many cases, the policy has always been  predicated on racist attitudes and the idea of keeping the population "pure."  I know because I was born in one of those countries, Japan, and it is well documented that Japan wants to stay ethnically Japanese and has serious social issues with non-Japanese and discrimination.  do we really want that?

Ladies, in my humble opinion it all comes down to fear of the unknown and fear of the lack of control, just as it does when people who we thought loved us vanish with our diagnoisis of cancer.  The basic human animal always has had --and always will have -- a need to believe they can control their universe and with that a fear of the unknown or the unexperienced or the different.  Those human animals who are okay with change and the unknown and different are the same ones who immigrate to other places. They were the first ones to leave Sweden/Norway and discover North America, they are the ones willing to leave Mexico or Burma or Ethiopia, they will be the first ones to volunteer for the  manned Mars colony.

I speculate, however, that the gene that leads to not being afraid is not a dominant trait and that it easily dies out.  Thus we have the next generation of immigrants wanting to lock the door and not let anyone else in.

and now so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye!

adieu adieu, adieu to you and you and you! I shall go back to working for a living and counting down until my holiday!  Thank you again for my exclusion in the deletee club. [almost forgot to ask, Will you be sending me a certificate? Are there dues? what about a tshirt?]

pip57

"But really, it began as one demagogue with his finger pointed, sowing panic in a fearful nation."

lindasa, that pretty much sums it up.  History continually teaches us the result of creating the hysteria that blames a country's problems on one group of people.

IronJawedBCAngel

The far right and the Republicans have been very good over the years at unleashing terror of the "boogeyman" upon this country.  McCain was doing a good impression of it the other day when speaking about the virus of the Egyptian protests.  Lets get everyone stirred up about those scary Muslims!  Apparently the Canadians are just as frightening, according to some.

Frankly, it's Beck, Limbaugh, and that Faux female person who shall not be named in the month of February, who scare the heck out of me!   

Blue, I always thought Beck was an alien!

Bren-2007

3monsta .. I like the idea of t-shirts!  How long will you be on the 5 post a day thing?  Hope not too long!

Bren

IronJawedBCAngel

As both sets of my grandparents were immigrants, I always found it amusing how they were prejudiced against other races, even after having that racism directed towards themselves.  My Polish grandmother was the worst about it, and I very much remember her diatribe against the Irish!  There is no doubt that US immigration policy was very much based on racism, and that, just like today, we were happy to deny certain races the right to be citizens, but were happy to give them work permits and low paying jobs.

Glad your ancestors made it across the border.  Slainte!

Bren-2007

My grandparents and great grandparents immigrated from Germany.  They settled in WI and in PA.  I'm glad they made it in before you needed a passport and work visa!

Bren

BarbaraA

I have a problem with people not following the rules. My dear friend emigrated from England and was naturalized 20 years ago. His daughter, her husband and son want to move here to run his business so he can retire. They have been on the waiting list for 6+ years.

Bren-2007

They've been waiting SIX years.  My gosh, your friend isn't going to be able to retire any time soon.

How is your brother doing today?  Better, I hope.

Bren

Anonymous

3monstmama wrote:

re immigration in general:  Sorry person who believes none of that happened pre 1920 but my sneaky family members slipped over the border pre-1920s, more like late 1800s. 

Like it or not our policy in the USA was racially based from the start and that includes the attitude towards those wretched Irish [which would include ME!] as expressed by the English who got here first.

??????? 

Could someone please point out where the border between the USA and Ireland that these ancestors slipped over is?

If your ancestors were allowed to get off the ship, then they probably qualified as legal immigrants, or someone at the port was not doing their job properly. 

Some of those tall tales that were told to the officials make interesting stories though. 

Back then, it seems that many people were coming to stay with an "Aunt" or "Uncle", although many had never met before, and the family lineage was not all that clear, but as long as the person who they were coming to live with was a willing participant, met them at the ship, and the address and stories matched, they were allowed to stay.

(edited for clarification of meaning)

bluedahlia

Laura, do you realize that Star Trek is far to the left?

bluedahlia

Patmom, how do you know that?

Anonymous

Many of my family members came through Ellis Island, and we did some pretty extensive research of the archives there.  That story about coming to stay with an Aunt or Uncle seems to pop up pretty frequently. 

At least one family member was not allowed to leave Ellis Island until she married the fiance' that she came here to marry.  Unfortunately he had to work, so he sent his brother to pick up the fiance'.  The brothers wound up married to each other's fiance's.  It was not a happy situation, especially since they didn't believe in divorce. 

BarbaraA

Patmom, LMBO!!

He is much better today, Bren, thanks for asking. They did a CT this morning to see if the infection needed additional surgery. Don't know about that yet but if not, then they are going to wean him off the respirator tomorrow. Great news!

Anonymous

Laura, do you realize that Star Trek is far to the left?

Yes, blue I do realize that. My dh, pre-Barry Hussein, was somewhat left. dh is very cautious about his opinions and researches everything before he offers an opinion (this is one of the many reasons I fell in love with him-he is not spontaneous and his intelligence is remarkable). He has totally changed his opinion regarding Barry Hussein. Not at all based on my opinion, but he has based his current opinion on fact. I love the fact that he doesn't agree with me based on my opinion, but he agrees with me based on his own personal knowledge and research. He is shaking his head at most of what he reads and hears in the media. He occasionally strays to Fox, yet he is still trying to believe in the lame stream media. Needless to say...the HISTORY channel is his favorite channel.   

rosemary-b

3monstamama

Well said.

ananda8

Can we agree that if we post something on a political topic that we also provide links to the source of information?

As far as I am concerned people who post things about health care, immigration, etc. who do not provide links to neutral sources are just blowing smoke and I will ignore their posts.

I have posted a detailed list of things that are in the health care bill on another thread.  I have repeatedly asked that people who object to health care to delineate specific areas that they would like to see repealed.  Other than mandates, there has been no response.  Is that because people don't actually have objections but are just spouting discontent or is it because they won't even look at the facts?

BarbaraA

How about those brussel sprouts!!!