I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

ananda8

To criticize the personnel of the American Embassy to Egypt will it is under attack is one of the most craven acts I have every witnessed by any politician ever.  He should beg the forgiveness of those brave American citizens.  Of course he won't. 

1Athena1

At this stage I feel sorry for Romney. The GOP has been opposing him publicly a lot recently. The GOP has to either dismantle and make way for something new (shudder) or shape up in a truly revolutionary way. Unfortunately, they've chosen their candidate, and it's too late for this cycle. I only hope people see how out of touch Romney is with the world around him (not because of his money but because of his missing empathy "gene" which has nothing to do with money) and decide they had better not let other out-of-touch people, also lacking the empathy gene, get into congress either.

I see the bankrupt ideology consisting of two factions.

1) The Rand Paul types who would pasturize America and take us back to the pre-Enlightenment eras, where healthcare is a luxury and footmen and carriages are considered rights of the aristocracy.

2) The people who still respect Wall Street and still think the criminals who do business there are actually intelligent and necessary people. Actually, they are spoilt children with impulse control problems. The've been raised by a nanny state (the US government, in many administrations, both repub. and dem.) that has coddled them, handed them a silver spoon and subsidized their whims and desires at the expense of everyone else, ranging from corporate titans who actually do things (eg: the Bill Gates's of the world) to us morals, to those who cannot work.

We need REAL business incentives for people to create things (not just buy and sell money) and bring jobs home. And the tea partiers have to say good-bye to the pre-industrial era.

RetiredLibby

Until you have been inside an American diplomatic installation with angry crowds shouting for your death outside, you have no concept of what it's like.  At the consulate in Pakistan where I was stationed in the mid-1980s, we no Marine security guards.  We had weapons in a safe room to defend ourselves, but they would only go so far.  And it is worse now than 30 years ago.  Romney has no clue.  A Romney presidency would be devastating for the U.S. and for the world.

L

duckyb1

I learned one thing today after listenting to the "Elephant Man"......................having a lot of money, does not mean you have "class"...................the very idea to turn such a tragic waste of human life into an opportunity to further your position in a political election, is by far the lowest of lows.....................................do you know what is"disgusting" to use his words.......................HIM........................I am appauled at his news conference this morning  which took place right before "the President".........so glad Obama showed the "class" he always shows, by not getting into a "pissing match" with his opponent...................

1Athena1

I don't think I have to know what it's like in order to feel empathy for the suffering of those who were attacked, to imagine the logistical confusion of who is doing what, where, to realize the fear....On top of the human tragedy, what a security, logistical and even language nightmare one can easily imagine it to be. I think it just takes a few correctly placed brain cells in my pre-frontal cortex. The part of empathy known as common sense, which, thankfully most of us have.

I've never been homeless - thankfully. And I can say "thankfully" because my basic brain matter tells me it must be an awful proposition.

FDR certainly never knew poverty, and he created the New Deal.

Romney is morally clueless.

I don't think one needs to know what something is like in order to empathize.

1Athena1

I should clarify: I only "feel sorry" for Romney because I am so certain he is going to lose. Bit of a waste of time, though.

1Athena1

Still ruminating on HLs point re: whether one has to experience a situation to empathize.

I suppose I don't think one can ever know EXACTLY how a situation is without experiencing it - that is, we can't know how we would each individually experience it, but if we've got our pre-frontal cortex in semi-decent operating order I do think we have the ability to transpose and analogize to the point where we can feel for others. I just don't think Romney has that cognitive ability - and I think he was born that way.

He can't even feel much emotion. Notice how wooden he seemed at the convention. Perhaps he uses his religion as a guide with which to live by. That prevents him from being a sociopath and serial killer, if you will. But it doesn't make up for the fact that he isn't quite human.

RetiredLibby

Oh, I'm not trying to EXCUSE Romney's lack of empathy -- rather to emphasize his utter cluelessness.  No, of course you don't have to experience sitting in a U.S. diplomatic installation with an angry mob howling for your head outside to grasp the terror and helplessness you feel.  Romney, however, is incapable of imagining that.  In his world, he just calls the guards at the gate and they go away.  Or, more recently, his Secret Service detail sweeps the facility, hired goons secure the perimeter, and all is sunshine and light in Romney-land with a wave of the hand.  He simply lives in a different reality than the rest of us and cannot comprehend that.  He wouldn't have the faintest idea how to cope -- just like he hasn't the faintest idea of how to conduct diplomacy, be a statesman or be a leader.

Here is a very good piece from The Atlantic on how difficult it is to conduct diplomacy in general and the Middle East in particular: 

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/the-contradictions-of-diplomacy/262271/

"Whoever wrote the memo yesterday condemning Innocence of Muslims had an enormously difficult, and sometimes contradictory, set of objectives to accomplish on behalf of the United States. Promote America's image in Egypt, but also promote American ideas about the bounds of free speech that might offend many Egyptians. Further American interests as well as American ideals. Approach Egypt as it is, but help guide the country to what it could become. Represent the United States and its interests, but use language that might make sense in an Egyptian context that can be quite different than, for example, an American. Speak to Egyptian citizens as well as Egyptian leaders, but remember that there's an election going on back home."

Yep.

Moderators

Hi Folks, 

Can we kindly request that we stop the conversations regarding posts being reported, and members deleted? It is more complicated than it looks, and we are working on things to the best of our ability. It is ashame to have it distract from all the positive and interesting conversations that are going on. Also, it will die out more quickly if we let us all go.

Thanks for you help in moving forward.

Your Mods 

1Athena1

Will do, mods.

HL - I think you nailed it. He is incapable.

I also take away something else you say -  there is the part where he feels that if he can solve a certain problem a certain way (ie: calling guards), then that solution must be applicable in all instances. It's actually a common problem you see, though to a lesser extent, with governors who run for president. They think that what works on a small scale works in the disjointed federal world.

Enjoyful

Moderators-



Would you mind privately answering my questions re deletions?



Thanks!

Scoot

Moderators

Hey a friendly reminder-  While talking about the daily news is important for many, we ask that you remain as respectful and as apolitical as possible.  

Again, thanks for help in moving forward.

Anonymous

Thank you Moderators.  If Athena's post that was "removed by the community" is not going to be made available as a post, as I thought happens when reviewed a Moderator if it does not violate a BCO rule, could you please let us kow what rule it violates?

In going forward, I think we all want to be careful of not creating a post that is "removed by the community" and not reinstated.  We can only do this, as we have all read Athena's post - by understanding what rule it violated.

Anonymous

EDITED BY SUNFLOWERS at the request of a respected "sister."

In honor of Elizabeth, and Chemosabi who were brutally bullied, and sometimes banned, and can no longer speak for themselves, please take a HUGE HUGE bite of yummy chocolate cake, while you think of the famous words of 

Friedrich Gustav Emil Niemoller, a Lutheran pastor in Germany who lived 1/14/1892 - 3/6/1984

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

I didn't realize there was anything "complex" about a member posting of her & her friends sometimes very difficult history with BCO, especially when she praised the Moderators for trying to stop it, when she sensed it was still happening.

Enjoyful

I think "moving forward" means to continue on and let the Moderators handle it. That would be fine except that the Moderators' actions are shrouded in secrecy while we're periodically dive-bombed with splatters of unwelcome comments.

CLC

Wow...busy day here!  All I can offer up is...glad to see you, Athena!  And...fascinating discussion re empathy.  Love reading all your posts. 

rosemary-b

I spent the morning at the eye doctor. Then I had a headache most of the day . I think i was because of that awful visual field test. I can't decide if it was thought up by a teenager or Satan. Either way somebody who hates old people.

When I got home I took a nap and worked in the garden. There is something about a garden. I feel much better. i am mad at fundamentalists of all kinds. 

Now, I have sewing to finish and presents to wrap for the two granddaughters birthdays that are this week. 

suzieq60

I went for a ride yesterday and didn't get attacked by a magpie - thank goodness. Might be due to this:

BarbaraA

I find the Obama administration forcing Catholics to go against their religious beliefs to be intolerant. So the left and the right are both religiously intolerant. It's a wash.

1Athena1

Mods:

I think you ask the impossible when you request that we be apolitical. Breast cancer itself has been unfortunately steeped in politics. We patients, as payees into the US healthcare system, are steeped in the politics of it whether we like it or not.

(Rest of post has turned into pumpkin)

1Athena1

ETA: Either I can't count (very likely) or the BCO clock is off).

bluedahlia

1Athena1

Susie - haha! Not even an eagle would dare to mess with you. What a great helmet.

YramAL

Susie-I love your helmet. I'll bet you can't get very close to other riders, either. 

Rosemary-I hate, hate, hate that visual fields test. I always get a headache too. I'm just about due for another one. Not looking forward to it.

I think the political discussion on here is very civilized for the most part.

Mary 

rosemary-b

susie

Love the helmet. What a great idea.

crazy4carrots

Susie Sputnik

208sandy

Susie - LOVE the helmet!

suzieq60

I used all 25 cable ties in the pack I bought. A guy at work couldn't believe it, so that is why I took the pic last night. Got to get another pack for Steve's helmet. Needless to say I didn't get attacked yesterday afternoon.

We were googling how to avoid magpie attacks the other day and I found a website called "Bunnings is not a bike shop" - loved it. Do you have Bunnings over there - big hardware store chain - where I bought my cable ties.

IllinoisLady

Athena -- hope I can say this without getting in water too deep.  I was struck by something you said about Romney using his religion to give him some way to get his behavior in check.  I recalled all the hours I spent reading a book called " The Mask of Sanity ", written by Hervey Cleckley, M.D.  Even years ago I had to get special dispensation to purchase the book as Dr. Cleckley had passed on.

In the book he talks about anti-social or socio-pathic people.  In his viewpoint ( and I have in fact seen it easily at work in a number of people ) these people basically have no conscience.  The only conscience they display is the one they are able to mock up by copying from others who do.  So, I immediately thought of the last few times I watched speeches from Mr. Romney and he was in fact somewhat animated, but not in ways that were germane ( hope I have that last word right ) to the situation.  He seemed to have a look on his face where he thought there would be some clapping or approval sounds so he would leave a pause and look up to accept adulation that actually wasn't forth-coming.  For this reason......I really feel you have something there.  I have experienced a couple of anti-social people in my travels and they were not very bright and therefore it was a horrid experience....still took a few months to "figure" why everything was Topsy-turvy.   The bad part is that people do "attain" a high rank or similar level in life....including government. 

Jackie

1Athena1

Jackie - it's creepy, isn't it? I totally agree with your post. And I think Romney certainly has a cannon of good conduct he goes by, but he can only follow it mechanically because he doesn't feel it deep down. There may be a part of him that wants to do things the proper way. It may be why he decided to be a Mormon minister. But he still doesn't really have a conscience. And interestingly, the act of going to a country (Britain) and criticizing their Olympics shows that - he didn't see the human emotions of national pride and human fallibility behind the effort, and he didn't see how people might be hurt.

If Mitt Romney agreed with me on everything - every policy - I still would not vote for him. I see that just a little bit in Hillary. A lack of conscience is non-negotiable, IMO. And it has nothing to do with one's circumstances or ideology.