I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Beesie

IronJawedBCAngel, I realize that what the Dems are doing in Wisconsin isn't illegal. But call me silly... it just doesn't seem right to me when a legislator leaves the state in order to avoid a vote. Using all the tools of government to stall a vote or force negotiation is one thing; fleeing the state is another. By the way, in Canada it would be highly unlikely that there would be a no confidence vote in cases when there is a majority government. Non confidence votes come into play when there is a minority government. On the other hand, in Wisconsin, the citizens do have a means to recall their politicians. Laws governing recall in Wisconsin 

otter, when I heard the story about the poisoning of the oaks yesterday, I just couldn't believe it. The guy who did it seemed to be boasting about it on the radio call-in show. I agree with you that destroying the trees is no different than destroying property or killing an animal.  I heard today that the guy's been charged with criminal mischief. This one really has me shaking my head in disbelief.  Very sad.

Back to what's happening - or not happening in Wisconsin, I really do see both sides of the issue and without knowing more of the facts, I don't know on which side I land. What prompted my earlier posts was my surprise that so many here have rushed to judgement so quickly. (Note that I'm not referring to those of you who know the State and the issue well.) Given how muddy the waters are on this one, I'm disappointed to see how almost everyone automatically moved to their designated corner. That doesn't give me much hope that the ever widening divide in the U.S. - which I think is damaging to the U.S. in so many ways - is going to start to narrow anytime soon. And that too is sad.

   

208sandy

I've been very careful not to discuss the Wisconsin situation vis-a-vis the democrats leaving the state because I'd hate to have to explain OUR Prime Minister's proroging(sp) Parliament to avoid a no-confidence vote.

Sandy

bluedahlia

Maybe we can start a reality show "The Troll Whisperer"!

Anonymous

AnneW - No offense, but that is a ridiculous analogy. lol

Beesie - You wrote: ...was my surprise that so many here have rushed to judgement so quickly.

I don't think anyone rushed to judgement. The issue is quite simple, WI is broke, tax payers are tired of having their tax dollars fund union workers' healthcare and pensions. And the tax payers are tired of the situation being due to collective bargaining. It's really not complicated. 

Wabbit

The teachers union has already agreed to the monetary concessions ... this is about taking away their bargaining rights.  This was the purpose in the beginning and nobody was really fooled by trying to hide it under the budget cloak.

Visited with my daughter today.  I was surprised at the degree of the anger being expressed by her and her friends about what is going on.  Many of them would consider themselves Republicans but the defunding of Planned Parenthood has got them furious.  They are early 30s and PP is where they get ... and have always gotten ... their exams and birth control.  They feel like somebody snuck up on them and stabbed them in the back.  The PBS thing is not going over well for that generation either ... they grew up with the Muppets and are now sharing those shows with their young children.

What's that old saying ... give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.  Alienating everybody who is not rabid rightwing does not seem wise to me.   

And no Beesie the divide is not going to go away any time soon.  And however angry the TPers may be ... the other side is just as furious now. 

I'm sorry you had a bad experience Laura.   I can certainly understand how much the protesters must resent out of state people who are not affected by this being bussed in to work against them.  Still it's always better when people control their tempers and remain civil.    

Beesie

Laura, since people are so entrenched on both sides of the fence, obviously this isn't quite so simple.  I acknowledge all your points but I also acknowledge that taking collective bargaining rights away from a union seems more than a bit excessive.

Sandy, proroguing parliament may not have been a popular move but it was within the rules of government. (Remember that the PM even had to get approval from the Gov. General before doing it.) It's more like filibusters... maybe not used the the way it was initially intended but a legitimate action nonetheless. So it's not the same thing at all.  Show me where it's written that "fleeing the state" is an accepted means of stalling a vote.   

bluedahlia

Good night all.  Maybe one morning we'll all wake up to peace and harmony. 

AnnNYC

Beesie -- I do have a heroine among the Republican State Senators in Wisconsin: Alberta Darling of River Hills, co-chairwoman of the Joint Finance Committee.

She is urging further study of the effects of the bill (introduced last Friday) before voting on it, because of the likelihood that Wisconsin would lose millions (estimates range from $45 million to $70 million) in federal transportation funding due to a federal requirement that transit employees be guaranteed certain labor rights, including collective bargaining.

It just doesn't seem fiscally responsible -- when public employees have already agreed to pay more for their health insurance and pensions, to the tune of $137 million this year (effectively a 5% pay cut) -- for the Governor and most Republicans to insist on the language denying collective bargaining if it will cost the state another $45 to $70 million.

[See http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116359409.html and http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116284394.html and http://lacrossetribune.com/news/article_e3043338-3be4-11e0-9e78-001cc4c03286.html and http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/columnists/article_faecd4c7-5ebf-5e66-8a80-5f142f26ea01.html ]

Maybe this provides some more context for the actions of the Democratic Senators -- the bill seems rash, and as currently written might wreak havoc with federal funding for other programs across the State. A little more study seems in order -- a cooling-off period. (As for Wisconsin recall laws -- an elected official can be recalled after the first year of his/her term.)

1Athena1

Dinner was a sandwich from a great Deli on 24th and M.....am I the only one who doesn't cook around here? I used to, a long, long time ago.

Re: Wisconsin, I am surprised that nobody caught on to the bigger picture in this discussion - the NYT article I posted reports that events in Wisconsin are having a ripple effect in other states in two ways: first, the actions by Walker are part of a trend of newly elected GOP leaders seeking to erode union power (with some exceptions) and, secondly, protests in Wisconsin are sparking demonstrations elsewhere as unions fear that years and years of eroding power are adding up.

I think this goes way beyond rules or manners of protest or even what people in Wisconsin -a state not nearly in as much crisis as others and with an unemployment rate below the national average- are going through. I respect the incident for what it means to people of that state, of course, I simply note that the story does not end at state borders. To me, this is the first real test of will for republicans elected in November. How well they do or how much they fail could end up affecting the 2012 electoral map. But wait, I sound like a pundit. Yuck! Sorry. The more meaningful part is that union power has been steadily eroding in this country and this may be where the unions finally stand up and say "enough is enough." Walker's stance and those of like minded republican leaders show me the weakness and ultimate futility of insisting on budget tightening policies that refuse to look at tax increases and only look at one side of the ledger, which is cuts. No serious fiscal belt tightening policy can be one sided - especially one that conveniently exempts the unions that backed Walker for his election. His claims of doing it all for the budget just don't pass the smell test for me.

I am one of those who do believe my neighbours should be paying taxes for "me" (assuming I am a public employee) to have good benefits, because I am paying taxes so that their children can go swimming in that nice new municipal swimming pool that was built with public monies. See how it works? And the taxes they pay for my benefits keep me teaching their children if I am a teacher. If there is one thing that is truly recyclable, it is taxes. We all pay and we all get something in return.  It is called community living or, more simply, civilization. Anyone who does not believe in paying taxes for others should stop paying federal and state taxes immediately, because you are always paying for others, and others are always paying for you. I, for one, am proud to belong to such a system (even if it makes my less than stellar earnings even slimmer). It speaks of compassion, generosity, equilibrium and fairness. It balances out personal and collective responsibility.  

End of ramble....g'night all!

ananda8

1Athena1,

I completely agree.  Well said.

leggo

Thank you for bringing that up Sandy! Our "illustrious" leader is no different.

Anonymous

What is with the "attacking unions"?  He is asking them to chip in and pay 10 - 12% of their health insurance, and contribute to their OWN retirement. 17%.. Those numbers  are way below the national average.  (currently they pay NOTHING)

As for being proud of the trashers that took their student out of school.   THEY BROKE THE LAW.  A child - anyone under 18 needs to have a permission slip signed by parent to leave the school grounds.

They took this kids into a potentially dangerous situation.  They students watched their teachers scream, hold up posters of Scott looking like Hitler, Scott with a bullet aimed to the middle of his head, totally trashed the inside of the Capital including items that were over 100 years old.  The wonderful environmentally friends teachers left trash all over the inside and out side of the building.  Another GREAT example for the students.   The student didn't even know what they were doing there.

All of the capital staff were advised to lock their doors the last 2 days.  They were terrified.  THey had no access to the restrooms , food or water all day long. 

Currently teachers are surrounding homes of Republican senators.  Thugs are surrounding Scott's home in Milw.  where is children live with their grandparents so they could finish out the school year

That is a very serious offense and total lack of judgement on that part of the thugs you are referring to as Teachers.

You also seemed to forget the thugs LIED about being sick and didn't t give a dam about it.  Got a fraudulent note from a union Dr.

THESE PEOPLE ARE REALLY WHO YOU TRUST YOUR CHILDREN'S EDUCATION WITH ??

Direst answers to questions only.  Now BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Name one other job where you could act this

Anonymous

Gee, what would happen if the teachers were all fired for BREAKING THEIR CONTRACT DUTIES?

My city had 300 applicants for ONE teaching position.  Their positions could be filled in days !!

The out of state folks 15 buses were provided by Barry Soetoro's re-election organization.

Some others - ONE WISCONSIN NOW is funded by George Soros.  HE brought people in also.  Do you know that several groups funded by Soros has employed "professional ? They are PAID - their full time job!!!  They travel state to state or follow about some high profile Republican just to make trouble stir up the mobs

Anyone care that Scott Walker's life is in danger?

DIRECT ANSWERS PLEASE - NO BRUSSELS SPROUT DROLL

konakat

Athena -- I don't cook either.  I cooked a lot about 20 years ago -- ground my own spices, made a lot of Indian dishes.  Now, the only thing I cook is pasta.  I have 2 pizza joints saved in my cell phone.  Lots of restaurants that deliver where I live. 

kadeeb

IronJaw,

Loved the piece on care and feeding of your Troll.

I think we had one for a while this weekend but the suggestions in your article seem to have been used for the most part and things didn't get out of hand. Because this house is full of harmonal(or in my case "non-harmonal") women who have strong opinions and a low tolerance for ignorance or lack of research it becomes a target for the little creatures. We have also become wary (but welcome) of new comers who pop in yelling at those who live here. The article is correct, eventually they will go away. 

BTW Good morning everyone! Off to get breakfast. Eggs, Bacon and Toast w/ more coffee and juice. 

1Athena1

Still deciding on breakfast....KK I used to make my own chicken stock - how is that for cooking from scratch? I actually had some aptitude for the art of cooking and my dishes were tasty (if I may say so myself) BUT it always took me hours. I would end up having dinner at midnight. Three hours cooking and five minutes eating did not seem like a good cost-benefit ratio. I still miss grounding carrots and celery for split pea soup using a knife and not a food processor. The elaborate nature of my cooking was probably due to what I saw at home growing up and also because I took lessons under a French chef while at school and everything had to be both from scratch and in season.

Anonymous

WhiteRabbit wrote:

Visited with my daughter today.  I was surprised at the degree of the anger being expressed by her and her friends about what is going on.  Many of them would consider themselves Republicans but the defunding of Planned Parenthood has got them furious.  They are early 30s and PP is where they get ... and have always gotten ... their exams and birth control.  They feel like somebody snuck up on them and stabbed them in the back. 

Planned Parenthood is not, and has never been a government run program.  Do these thitysomething (professional?) women consider paying market price for their own exams and birth control? 

If they are true believers in the mission of Planned Parenthood, no one is stopping them from making a generous donation to the organization.  Why should people who abhor the way Planned Parenthood operates be forced to pay for it through their tax dollars?

Enjoyful

Hey Laura - Yes, everyone's guilty of a misspelling and/or typo or two on the boards.  No biggie.

Sandy - What the heck?  Did some unhappy troll, perhaps one living in their parent's basement, delete a post of yours?  Ah well, it's easy to be big & tough while hiding behind a keyboard.  I hope you feel better soon!

For those Wisconsinites on the board - it's curious that Gov. Walker did not speak with the unions prior to announcing his planned changes.  It's also curious that he's not treating all unions equally.  Why require teachers to pay more toward health insurance and pension, but not require the same of policemen and firefighters?  I don't know about Wisconcin's benefits, but in my neck of the woods, policemen and firefighters receive extremely generous benefits and overtime pay, far better than the teachers, and the taxpayer picks up the tab.  Are policemen and firefighters also public employee freeloaders who couldn't make it in the private sector? 

From my admittedly limited point of view, it seems that Gov. Walker has an axe to grind.

E

(Edited to remove brussels sprout comment.  Penalized self two minutes for roughing.)

konakat

Why should people who abhor the way Crisis Pregnancy Centers operate be forced to pay for it through their tax dollars?

Planned Parenthood provides birth control to women who may not otherwise be able to afford it.  No birth control -- we all know what that leads to. 

otter

We don't have any Brussel sprouts in the house right now, but I did eat a lot of 'em at a Chinese restaurant on Friday evening.  I don't even require them to be slathered in cheese sauce.

otter  (watching Meet the Press and getting even more frustrated)

Enjoyful

If we're going to deny abortion rights to women, perhaps we should force custody on the fathers of those unwanted children. 

Anonymous

Or maybe insist that those (potential) fathers kick in to pay for the birth control that can prevent the pregnancy in the first place rather than insisting that taxpayers (many if not most of whom have significant objections to at least part of Planned Parenthood's mission) pay for it.

Anonymous

White Rabbit posted: (defunding of) Planned Parenthood has got them furious.  

Tax paying citizens, who are pro-life, do not want their tax dollars paying for the slaughter of unborn babies. That's the issue. They feel that since abortion is legal, if PP wants to continue their services, they should be funded by private donations. Why does this seem so unreasonable? And why is it that 30 year old women want taxes paying for their personal products and Gyne visits (birth control, pap smears)? Perhaps tax dollars should also provide free shampoo and toothpaste. If these girls are on welfare and medicaid, why do they also need freebies from PP. And if they're not because they're employed, why can't they pay on their own?  

White Rabbit posted: I can certainly understand how much the protesters must resent out of state people who are not affected by this being bussed in to work against them.   

That's crazy. I wasn't bused in, and quite frankly, numerous people from WI thanked us for our support and attendance. After all, it was the Rockford, IL tea party members who tracked down the Democratic Senators who fled the WI capitol building, crossed state lines and have been hiding out since Thursday somewhere in IL. Many in IL are hoping Walker's bill also crosses state lines and lands in IL.

Anonymous

E - Long time no talk! : ) You posted: perhaps we should force custody on the fathers of those unwanted children.

That would only work if they know who the father is.

Pat - Yes...ideally, prevention is the ultimate solution. What's so difficult about taking a tiny little pill everyday? Isn't it a parents responsibility to oversee this? Why is the responsibility shifted to PP?

Enjoyful

Laura - I don't want my tax money paying for the slaughter of Iraqis, Afghanistanis, and Americans.  Nor do I want to pay more taxes or have fewer services to fund tax cuts for the wealthy and businesses.  Particularly businesses that are sitting on huge reserves of cash and NOT creating new jobs.

What to do?

Anonymous

Or maybe those potential fathers should be willing to wear something that would protect from STD's as well as an unintended pregnancy?

The people who are engaging in the behavior should not include taxpayers in their recreation, or expect taxpayers to pay for the consequences of their behavior. 

Enjoyful

DNA testing, Laura.  It wouldn't be that difficult (not all women with unwanted pregnancies sleep with multiple partners).  Shouldn't the fathers at least share in the cost of raising their child? 

Enjoyful

Laura - it has been a while!  I hope things are ok with you & yours.

1Athena1

I think it would be fascinating to see the results of the following experiment, which is obviously impossible to conduct:

Send all adult citizens a detailed questionnaire asking them WHAT they would like to pay taxes for and HOW MUCH they are willing to give. Ask for detailed descriptions and checks. It would be funny to see the mess we wouild end up with - two armies, only one house of congress, border patrol for one coast but not the other, funding for people's drug habits and also their yoga classes, but not for policmen salaries in New York City.

But the interesting question is: If every citizen only had to pay taxes for that which he or she agreed with, would we be left with less government or more? We might end up with a police force just to patrol gay bedrooms and abortion clinics, but no one to man the school crossings in Kansas....I say we would end up with more Big Brother and less governance.

AnneW

Laura, you're right. That was a bad analogy. But it's all mob mentality. You were frightened by a large group of people blocking you and swearing at you. Women coming out of Planned Parenthood and other women's health clinics (who most likely are not even there for an abortion!) get scared by protestors with ugly signs, foul language, and implied threats.

So, now you are able to have a little bit of empathy, perhaps, for people who experience what you did, regardless of their political or personal beliefs.

That's how I should have said it initially.