I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

zap

Suzfive, that is so worrisome that your DH is finding homeschooled kids better prepared for the rigors of college work than students from the Wisconsin public schools.  I know there are many wonderful home school settings, but we have to provide good public school education.  Where abouts does he teach? Does he blame the public school systems, the teachers, parents or a combination of all three?

I am your neighbor in Illinois.  I think we all must take note of what is happening in Madison right now as soon our respective states will most likely be facing the same sort of controversy and so I personally do not feel I need to live in Wisconsin to understand and to comment on what is going on in Wisconsin.  I live about forty minutes from the Illinois/Wisconsin so I relate to what is happening there.  I also am a taxpayer, but to Illinois.

I appreciate, however, your point of view, which is is very considerate of your fellow-taxpayers.

lewing

This is a good discussion, so I hate to change topics, but we seem to have a weekend tradition on this thread of comparing dinner plans.  What's everyone cooking tonight?

I'm trying a vegetarian Spanish dish - garbanzos con espinacas (spinach).  I heard it described on NPR way back when, and it sounded delicious, but this is the first time I've actually cooked it.  Very healthy, too, though of course I'll undo that by having cheese and bread and maybe some good salami along with.

L

leggo

Pad thai.

rosemary-b

My son just walked by and told me not to feed the trolls. I think he wants me to feed him.

W e are having leftover chiken and stuffing and a salad if my sweetie makes it, othrwise whatever frozen veggies I can find. Iam sick and lazy today.

covertanjou

I love pad thai. 

My DH and I are going out with some friends for supper.  We are going to an Italian restaurant that has great pizza (cooked in a wood-burning oven).  They make a delicous pizza topped with grilled epplant--I am definitely having that.

Gracie, I taught for a few years at an all-girl Catholic high school, and I don't have a degree in education.  I have a Ph.d in English literature.  The high school needed someone asap to replace soemone going on maternity leave, so they hired me.  In Quebec, there is a loophole that you can teach without an education degree for a short period of time if the school can "prove" that they can't fill the position with someone having an Education degree.  Private schools also have more leaway in hiring since they are only partially subsidized by the public.

lewing

Gracie, you had me at the pad thai, but then Mary went and mentioned grilled eggplant pizza . . .

I hope someone who knows more about U.S. teaching requirements will jump in.  I was under the impression that to teach a specific subject, at least at the high school level, you needed a degree in that subject *and* complete a certain number of education courses *and* do your student teaching.  But I will be the first to admit I don't know all the ins and outs.

Rosemary, I hope you feel better soon.

L

rosemary-b

Lewing

So do I. This virus just won't die. I am trying to take it easy. It's complicated by asthma too and if I'm not better Monday I will have to go back to the doctor. Yuck.

Sorry for the whining. I know the bug will eventually go away.

leggo

That's what I thought to lewing (that you needed a certain amount of education credits), but covertanjou's explanation helps clear things up....sort of. I'm not sure I want my children being taught by someone who's not qualified.....re: having earned teaching credits and gone through the rigors of student teaching. That's just me, though. I'm sure anyone could "pass a test" and teach. Not unlike me not going to law school, for instance, but just writing and passing the bar. I'd make a pretty crappy lawyer. I guess as long as salaries are in line with qualifications, it's all good.

Everything tastes better with chopsticks!

AnnNYC

Rosemary, hope you feel better soon.

Newsflash from WI State Senator Jon Erpenbach (D), via CNN:

"I have been informed that all state and local public employees -- including teachers -- have agreed to the financial aspects of Gov. Walker's request," said Sen. Jon Erpenbach, a Democrat. "This includes Walker's requested concessions on public employee health care and pension. In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed. This will solve the budget challenge."

otter

Yes, gracie, it's possible to get a teaching certificate to teach in the U.S. even without a degree in education. 

Teaching credentials are regulated by the individual states, so there are some differences from state to state. Here's a website that provides some basic information about teaching jobs in Wisconsin, including the average salaries.  (I am picking Wisconsin since that seems to be the area of interest today.)  http://certificationmap.com/states/wisconsin-teacher-certification/

Many states, including Wisconsin, offer programs leading to teacher certification for students who already have a bachelor's degree in another field (http://www.teach-now.org/index.cfm).  Here's an example of a program in Wisconsin that offers "Alternative Teacher Certification":  http://www.uwec.edu/career/students/jobsearch/teachers/altcert.htm  Apparently, it can take from 1 to 3 years to get the additional training, depending on the type of bachelor's degree the student already has.

suzfive, please don't take this wrong, because I don't intend for it to sound mean or snarky.  You said this (after pointing out that you don't normally post in this thread):  "I think you have to live in Wisconsin and pay Wisconsin taxes before you can comment on what is taking place here."

It's perfectly logical to think that people shouldn't be making judgments about what's going on in Wisconsin (or anywhere else) if they don't live there.  But that rule doesn't apply to this thread.  Most of the people posting regularly here read a lot, pay attention to current events, and are generally well-informed about things. We might not have personal experience with life in Madison or Ashland or La Crosse, but what's going on in Wisconsin right now could apply equally well where we do live and might eventually affect us.

So, we are fortunate that Blue created this safe place where we can voice opinions on things even if we probably don't know as much about them as we ought to.

I haven't decided what to fix for supper yet.  (It's my turn.)  It won't be fancy, because I'm tired and feeling lazy.  We've been cutting trees for next year's firewood.

otter

[P.S.:  Sorry, but there is no CliffsNotes version of this post.]

Alpal

Otter - cutting trees? Isn't there something going on about your neck of the woods and cutting trees? LOL

AnnNYC

Just in case it's not glaringly obvious already, I lived in Wisconsin from age 2 through 25, 4 of my 7 siblings (and their spouses and children) live there now (as they have for entire lives), my Mom and Dad were born and raised in Wisconsin, as were my maternal grandparents and great-grandparents, my Mom's 8 siblings, their spouses, my 52 first cousins and THEIR spouses, children and grandchildren...

zap

Thanks for the update, Ann.  I feel I have made some friends here today, and managed not to make any enemies.  You are a fine group of women who can move beyond BC to tackle some big issues.  I am passionate about education in this country and care so deeply about its course.  To me, what was agreed upon in Madison today is good and fair! Good teachers, like Shirley's SIL,  are not making the salary Shirleys SIL made in the private sector, but his salary, benefits, and pension plan (for now) is better because he probably has a union who cares about kids and teachers. My kids went to a public school without a union because they never needed one.  The salary and working conditions were competitive to surrounding school districts.  Not all of us teachers/students  are that fortunate!

Good-bye and God bless!

 Edited to add...."or... was this the plan all along, Governor Walker?" Ahhhhh politics!

otter

Oh, Alpal, yes there is, and it really is sad.  Okay, I will admit that I am totally biased, having worked for 25 years at the institution whose 130-year-old live oaks were poisoned.  People are saying this is a good example of a rivalry gone sour.  It might be true that the rivalry between these schools has gone too far; but what happened to those poor oak trees can be blamed on one single individual who went berserk.  He might just as well have burned a 130-year-old church or an antebellum home, or poisoned a beloved elephant at the city zoo.  Despite what people are saying, those trees are irreplaceable.

Yes, Ann, it was glaringly obvious, but that's okay.     I happen to have ancestral ties, as well as current links, to the state of Wisconsin.  I grew up and was educated in a rival state.  When I was in college, there was another graduate student in our department who was from Wisconsin.  He put a bumper sticker on his office door that said, "Escape to Wisconsin."  It wasn't a week before someone used a Sharpie to mark out "to" and write "from".

I need to preheat the oven and see what I can find in the freezer archives.

otter

AnnNYC

Otter, that is so sad about the live oaks.

I don't know which "rival" state you mean, but I tend to think of Minnesota as a "sister" -- maybe since my sister went to school there (mutual "in-state" tuition agreement between Wis and Minn at the time) and has lived there since!

Zap, the unions all agreed to the budget proposals, but Gov. Walker isn't budging on the collective bargaining issue, apparently: http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116519738.html

BTW, that Wisconsin State Journal article seems to support my guess about the protest-signs-on-sticks not being "trash left behind": At the entrances inside, protesters were allowed to bring placards in, but no signs with sticks on them.

zap

Okay, so I am not celebrating yet!  Misunderstood.  Keep us posted!

IronJawedBCAngel

My understanding is that Walker and the Republicans have stated that the bill is not negotiable, it does not matter that the union employees are willing to pay the additional money out of their paychecks, the primary target is the collective bargaining.  I find it interesting that it is ok for the US to accuse other countries of committing human rights violations, but the Tea Party has no concern that they are proposing something that violates international human rights.

Beesie, while you make some good points in your argument, the Democrats have violated no law, they are simply trying to stall the vote until the people have had time to voice their opinion and perhaps bring some of the Republicans to reason and negotiation.  Unlike Canada, we do not have part of our election process the concept of a vote of non-confidence where another election will be called.  Governor Walker was just elected, if this bill goes through as it is worded, the citizens of Wisconsin will have to live with it for at least another 4 years, despite the fact that there seem to be some great discrepancies in Governor Walker's "facts".  I have several friends at the protests today, and several others that work as teachers and in other areas of the public sector in other states that are watching with great interest and hope that their legislators are paying attention to what is happening in Wisconsin.  Civil disobedience has always been part of the history of our great nation, I am hoping that what occurred in Egypt last week has acted as a wake up call in this country.  We do not have to stand passively by and watch every right we have be continually eroded.  Together, we can use our voices and accomplish great things.  Just my opinion.

Anonymous

And yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees I know, I know...I goofed. Potato is singular, potatoes is plural. Crucify me! K?

bluedahlia

I just put a home made pizza in the oven (started from scratch).  Red peppers, onions, green olives....yum yum

IJBC hear, hear!

Anonymous

suzfive posted: I don't think my neighbors should have to pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health care plan and pay less for it and a better pension and pay next to nothing (0.2% as of 01/11) for it (as it is currently). Public employees are not special - they should have to sacrifice like the rest of the taxpayers who are paying them.    

Exactly! The current issue in WI has NOTHING to do with "teachers". It has nothing to do with their competency or lack of. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that public sector employees are sick and tired of paying for union teacher's healthcare and pensions. Public sector employees pay for their own healthcare and pensions, so should they. And... why should teachers have collective bargaining? The private sector employees fend for themselves.

zap

Laura, If it has nothing to do with education or teachers or nurses, why did thousands of teachers and nurses show up to protest their rights?  Laura, I love you, but suzvive's post was all about incompetancy of public school and teachers.  Reread it.  She said her husband was encountering students who were below expected performance due to a public school experience.  His best students were home-schooled.  My comment was that we need to understand that disconnect between education and college performance.Her  comment hinted at the incompetance of schools and not simply pensions, income of Wisconsin teachers.

And I could care less how you spell anything.  Tell us what your perception are on todays rally in Madison.  What did you hear?  What are your perceptions of this rally?

lewing

Laura, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the statement that "It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that public sector employees are sick and tired of paying for union teacher's healthcare and pensions. Public sector employees pay for their own healthcare and pensions, so should they."  Huh? 

You also say that "why should teachers have collective bargaining? The private sector employees fend for themselves."  This is untrue.  Private sector employees have a legal right to organize and bargain collectively.  (How adequate the law is, and how it's enforced, is another matter.)  Taking collective bargaining away from teachers and other public employees (except, of course, those that supported Scott Walker's campaign) is not giving them parity with private sector employees.  It's giving them *fewer* rights.  And that's profoundly unfair.

L

otter

LauraGTO said, "And... why should teachers have collective bargaining? The private sector employees fend for themselves."

The response to this seems way too obvious -- see, for instance:  http://www.unions.org/unions/wisconsin/49    But, I think I'll wait for someone who has more to offer than I do.

Blue, if you have any of that pizza left over... hmmm?

BTW, I found some interesting demographic info on the shift -- no, avalanche -- in political party representation that swept through Wisconsin with the 2010 election.  State government there went from nearly all Democratic to nearly all Republican, in one day.  It must be quite a shock for the Democratic loyalists (and it might explain what's going on in the streets there right now).  Wiki has a nice chart showing the details:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_Wisconsin

Leading up to the 2010 election, all but one of the state offices were held by Democrats: Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, and Treasurer.  Only the Attorney General was a Republican.
Democrats held a majority in the State Senate (18 D, 15 R).
Democrats held a majority in the State Assembly (52 D, 46 R, 1 I).
Both U.S. Senators were Democrats, and 5 of 8 members of Congress were Democrats.
The Democratic candidate has won Wisconsin’s Electoral College votes in every Presidential election since Ronald Reagan left office in 1988.

The 2010 election turned everything upside down.  Now, only the Secretary of State is a Democrat. All the other State officers are Republicans.
Republicans hold a majority in the State Senate (19 R, 14 D).
Republicans hold a majority in the State Assembly (60 R, 38 D, 1 I).
One of the two U.S. Senators is a Republican, and Republicans now hold 5 of the 8 Congressional seats.

Where things will go in 2012 remains to be seen.  I need to go.  There's a Netflix movie on.

otter

[Edited to correct the party affiliation of one officeholder.]

Anonymous

Love ya too, zap! lol  

(We went to the rally today in support of a good friend, who is a WI teacher, that favors Walker's bill.)   

Keep in mind, the union speakers were on one side of the building. And those in favor of Walker were on the other side. We were on the "other side", so we did not hear the union speakers. The speakers on our side realize the fact that WI is going broke and public workers will no longer have the luxury of paying practically nothing for HC & Pensions, and they will have to give up some of the collective bargaining. They admitted this was long overdue and the result is a huge deficit.

Unfortunately, we witnessed several disturbing incidents (quite disappointing).
 
(1) A union official was handing out FAKE DR'S NOTES to the teachers, for FAKE SICKNESS for the days the teachers were out of the classroom last week, protesting at the capitol building. I could not believe my eyes or ears. This was caught on tape by the media.  

(2) Several individual groups of teachers, in the presence of quite a few children, were screaming profanities (the "f" word included) at our group (there was about 10,000 of us). I thought that was disgusting.  

(3) After our speakers had finished speaking, several thousands of us proceeded to leave the grounds, only to find that hundreds of teachers had created a human chain to block us in. They were holding up teachers union signs and we had to duck to get under the signs and we had to push our way through them to get to the sidewalk. It was quite scary and I was actually so frightened - that my heart was beating out of my flat chest - lol. Several teachers spit on some of the people as they were trying to get through the human chain.

And please realize that my response to suz's post was in response to the items I italicized. Hugs! 

kadeeb

Otter, 

I knew you were from the area but didn't know you worked at the college. Great school, my SIL is a graduate. He and my son made the trip to Arizona a few weeks ago. They were so smashed but happy campers. Love both schools but this tree business is taking it too far and I'm not one of those "tree huggers" normally. I hope they can save them but from what I know about those types of things, there isn't a lot of hope. If anyone can work it out, you should have some graduates with the knowhow.

Edited because I'm not an english teacher or maybe just have fat fingers! 

kadeeb

I worked all day at my mom's, painting a bathroom for her and dad so she fixed dinner while I worked.

Baked chicken, green beans, baked potato and slaw. She had also made a strawberry pie (crushed pecans,butter and flour, pressed in the bottom for a crust, cream cheese & sugar for the middle, strawberry glaze with fresh strawberries on top). Probably had a zillion calaries per bite so I tried to keep it to a small piece and I didn't bring any home. See!!!  I was soooo good!!!! 

kadeeb

If I understood the governor's position it was either going to be his way now or another way later. If there really is a budget crunch, and layoffs are the only alternative (and I said IF) then the teachers getting the axe would be the last hired. That's the way it works in AL. That would mean that tenured teachers would not be fired and would still be able to negotiate for pay raises and additional benefits whenever they wanted. It would seem that the union position would result in fewer teachers, being employed but with the same or better wages and benefits. That sounds somewhat selfish considering their first concern (so they say) is for education. Fewer teachers would mean larger classes and less individual time for the students. My opinion is that it doesn't sound like education is their concern but money and benefits. I may not be understanding something but that's how it's coming across.

IronJawedBCAngel

 I don't get to spend that much time here, so this may have been posted here before, but a Komen sister sent this to me and it gave me a chuckle.

"The Care and Feeding of Your Troll: A Primer
So, you brought home a new Internet Troll. Congratulations! If you are a first timer having a troll, you may have questions. Here are a few suggestions so that you and your troll can live in karmic balance. Now remember, each troll is different and your results may vary. However, this primer should help you get on your way. Welcome to the world of having a troll!
How do I refer to my troll now that I have him/her?
First, your troll may show up already named. Yet, you will find the "pre-fab" names to be rather unoriginal such as Annonymous [sic], ihateyou or yousuck. Never fear, you can always change their name. If this is your first troll, I find that it is best to give him/her a soothing, happy name to remind you that they are really just helpless, sad creatures. A good name can make all the difference! I recommend something like FluffyLoveBunny or Silly Billy Chickie Boo. How scary is that? Not so much.
So your troll has a name! Congratulations! You are on your way!
How do I discipline my new troll?
Now as trolls are known to do, yours may act up from time to time. He or she may get down right nasty and vicious towards you. Remember: That is in their nature. They are inbred to act that way. It is just NOT their fault. (And rumor has it most of them were dropped on their head often as tiny, baby trolls.) Of course, your first instinct as you get used to your new troll is to lash out and want to punish them for being so incorrigible. That would be your first mistake! It only encourages their behavior. The best way to keep your little FluffyBunnyLove in harmony with you and your home is to ignore him or her. Unlike their human counterparts, neglect keeps trolls temperamentally neutral. Allowing them to see your anger or pain at their behavior merely encourages them to keep it up and makes them raging mean. Neglect. Ignore. Restore (the balance). Those are the keys to disciplining your new troll.
Now that I have a new troll, what do I feed him?
Like any wild animal, it is important to understand the indigenous nature of their diet. Your new troll may try to convince you that the best thing you can feed him is a diet of your anger, frustration and pain. Don't listen. As any child can tell you, they will try to get away with anything they possibly can. It would be a mistake to listen to them. Your anger, frustration and pain is their main source of nutrition and growth and- unlike human beings who need good nutrition and growth to survive- it is vital that trolls maintain a steady diet of ambivalence and ignorant bliss to maintain their puny stature. As much as you want to punish him or her, remember that little FluffyLoveBunny needs to be ignored after he or she comes home with you. A steady diet of neglect will keep you living in harmony with your new troll!
Where do I keep my new troll?
That is a great (and normal) question! As with any troll, he or she will want to be front and center in your life. He or she will want your never-ending attention at all times. It is their nature. However, to live successfully with your new troll, you must remember to keep him or her locked in a corner or sitting so far in the back of the room that you forget her or she is there. Remember: Neglect makes this work! Don't feel guilt. It is how this relationship was meant to be.
What if my troll runs away from me and never returns? Does this mean I failed as a troll owner?
Absolutely not! In fact, just the opposite. If your troll gives up in frustration and leaves you for another, that simply means you have done a good job in the care and feeding of your troll. Pat yourself on the back. You deserve it!
However, remember this: The troll population is diverse and re-spawns quickly. Don't get too comfortable. Before you know it, another troll may follow you home. But, with this handy primer, you will be ready for the care and feeding of your troll!
Good luck with your new troll! May your journey be swift and painless!"

konakat

that is so funny!!!

I had cheese tortellini with rose sauce for dinner.  I forgot about the tortellini in the pot and ended up with cheese tortellini slime bits.  Ate a few, the rest ended up in the garbage.  I shouldn't even try to cook!

AnneW

Laura, your post ...

<<2) Several individual groups of teachers, in the presence of quite a few children, were screaming profanities (the "f" word included) at our group (there was about 10,000 of us). I thought that was disgusting.  

(3) After our speakers had finished speaking, several thousands of us proceeded to leave the grounds, only to find that hundreds of teachers had created a human chain to block us in. They were holding up teachers union signs and we had to duck to get under the signs and we had to push our way through them to get to the sidewalk. It was quite scary and I was actually so frightened - that my heart was beating out of my flat chest - lol. Several teachers spit on some of the people as they were trying to get through the human chain>>

reminded me SO much of how anti-choice protesters make women feel as they come out of Planned Parenthood (or similar) and that the f-bombs and fetus pictures make other people feel as uncomfortable as you felt at the capitol.

Cherry picking at its best.