I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

kadeeb

I think a troll is someone who just wants a reaction from someone. It's much easier to get that reaction if they pick on one person and keep "poking the snake". Their opinion or what they say isn't so important because if they keep posting long enough they will contradict themselves.

Anonymous

zap wrote:   Good teachers, like Shirley's SIL,  are not making the salary Shirleys SIL made in the private sector, but his salary, benefits, and pension plan (for now) is better because he probably has a union who cares about kids and teachers.  

My SIL is a good teacher.  We have discussed the challenges he faces each day in a Title 1 school and how he deals with them.  It's too bad public schools have to have security on the ground.   As far as pay..unions and all that stuff...we are a right to work state.  He does NOT belong to a union per se.  I thought my DD told me he did not pay dues.  I will ask her or him again.  His salary is not good.  As I said before, when my DD was laid off last summer, she checked into getting health care through his insurance.  For the family it would have cost $700+.  She instead used her COBRA.  I don't know how much he pays into his retirement.  I'll have to ask that too.  So, paying that much just in insurance sure doesn't sound like the public workers in Wisconsin.  If they had to pay over $700 in month for insurance they'd have a heart attack.  Just $700 a month would equal $8400.  From what I understand about the WI teachers, they would be paying about $200 a month for their retirement and insurance.  Doesn't sound bad to me.  But, that's just what I heard.

leggo

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Title 1 school?

kadeeb

The local college has trouble getting math and science instructors because an employer about 50 miles away picks them off like flies. If they have a job opening, those instructors are gone in a flash and it's the money that takes them away. The private sector or government sector pays much better than public education so math and science instructors are in great demand most of the time. Maybe teaching should be more than a job, but it's not true of the majority of teachers I know. I wonder how many would leave teaching for something else if it paid more and had better benefits.

kadeeb

Title 1 has to do with the average income of the student's parents. If the income level is low enough the students are entitled to government aid in several forms. 

molly52

Exactly Laura!!!  And until we have viable solutions available for the caring of the new moms and their children, we cannot just "cut-off" abortion.

I am not supporting abortion, nor am I denying it.  I'm just saying, it's way to complex to solve with a simple government cut.  There is a cost - no matter what you choose.  While one seems expensive, without indepth analysis and problem-solving (unbiased) the alternative might be prohibitively more expensive.

NB Looking at this from a purely $$$$ perspective of the WI.

Claire82

kadeeb

my husband loved teaching and was great at it but we had 3 hungry mouths to feed...

i stayed as a teacher and love it, but my son in his 20's makes twice what i do in the private sector in the banking business

go figure

anyway - our union went to collective bargaining this year - it's not always a good thing - it helps the towns' compromise

they froze our salaries which means we took a cut in pay because our insurance and state taxes are going up

my son got a $20,000 bonus

Anonymous

I'm hearing about some "abuses" that happened in the 60s while pregnant.  I drank CAFFEINATED coffee back then.  Not one doctor told me not to.  My first DD was born in '69.  All three of my DDs are healthy and smart.  No, I don't push caffeine on expecting mothers just because I drank it.  However, the exclusion of caffeine was not a part of pre-natal care.

Anonymous

molly posted: until we have viable solutions available for the caring of the new moms and their children, we cannot just "cut-off" abortion.

Let me be clear...since abortion is legal, PP CAN perform them. But, if they want to continue performing them in the future, they need to start working NOW, to get private funding in the event that a  government defunding bill is passed. Forewarned is forearmed.

kadeeb

Claire, I understand exactly what you mean. I think it's going to get even more difficult to get caring teachers who enjoy what they do (and that means the difference between just going to work to get a check and caring what you do or accomplish while you're there)in the future. I think it's like it is with so many things in this world. "You get what you pay for" at least most of the time.

leggo

This is off-topic, but I'm just curious. Where I live, if and when you have a baby, you get a home visit by a nurse (whether you want it or not) to make sure mom and baby are doing well. They also make notes on how mom and baby intereact and living conditions (i.e. clean house, food in the fridge, necessary baby items, etc). If they suspect something is not up to par, they WILL get involved. Anything like that in the US?

Dinner tonight is maple cedar-planked salmon, baked potato and asparagus.

Alpal

Shirley - my first child was born in 71. I don't even remember my doc (a family doc, not ob) saying don't smoke or drink alcohol. My last child was born in 78 and smoking, drinking, caffeine, etc. will all no-nos by then. And I won't even go into throwing them in the back of the station wagon. LOL Still want to know why anyone wears a fake pregnancy belly - Halloween?

leggo

I think the fake pregnancy belly referred to the show "What would you do?", showing pregnant women in different situations and gauging other people's reactions. They weren't using real pregnant women, hence the fake belly.

Claire82

Just a side note -

On October 1, 1982 the first seatbelt law for children in my state went into effect.

The reason I remember the date? A drunk driver went through a stop sign and hit our car and rolled us down an embankment. Usually my 4 year old would have been snuggled next to us in the front seat and I would have been nursing my 2 month old. I ended up with an 8 inch gash in my head and hand was all cut up from flying glass. My chest landed on the stick shift and I could barely breathe for days. My two precious children were belted safely in the back and didn't even receive a scratch.

Some laws are good...

ananda8

My niece has been asked to sit on the board of a pregnancy clinic.  One of the criteria of this privately funded clinic is to be anti-choice.  One of the many things that my niece will bring to the position is the Catholic family planning technique.  This technique involves careful monitoring of one's cycle and taking one's temperature on a regular basis.  (I don't know all the details).  This technique actually works but it requires the commitment of the woman and her partner for it to be effective.   

I wonder how many unwanted pregnancies are caused by men refusing to participate in preventing pregnancy.  The National Domestic Abuse Hotline did an informal study of this very question.

http://www.thehotline.org/2011/02/1-in-4-callers-to-the-national-domestic-violence-hotline-report-birth-control-sabotage-and-pregnancy-coercion/

More than 3,000 callers participated in the survey by answering all or some of four questions between August 16 and September 26, 2010. Callers' ages ranged from 13 to over 55, with nearly 40% age 25 to 35. More than half of the callers were Caucasian, and nearly one quarter were African-American, and 17% were Hispanic. Callers who were in immediate danger were not asked to participate in the study.

For those who did participate in the study, patterns included pressure to become pregnant early in the relationship or before the victim felt ready and, in some cases, pressure to become pregnant followed by pressure to have an abortion. These abuse patterns were apparent in callers' comments, such as:

•  "I better be pregnant, or I'm in trouble with him."
• "He refuses to use a condom. I've bought them and he throws them out."
• "He has tried to talk me into having a child. He told me he wanted to keep me from leaving him."
• "He admitted to me and the psychologist that he intentionally got me pregnant to trap me."
• "My sister was 14 years old when she became involved with this abusive guy, and when she was 15 his mother wanted grandkids so he coerced her into getting pregnant."

"Survivors of domestic violence don't always recognize reproductive coercion as part of the power and control their partner is exerting over them in their relationship," said National Domestic Violence Hotline Operations Manager Mikisha Hooper. "This form of abuse can be shrouded in secrecy and may be uncomfortable for people to talk about it. By asking the right questions, we help victims identify and understand the abuse - and provide the support and resources they need."

The survey questions and response rates were as follows: 

1. Has your partner or ex-partner ever told you not to use any birth control (like the pill, shot, ring, etc.)? - Of the 3169 callers who responded, 25% said yes.
2. Has your partner or ex-partner ever tried to force or pressure you to become pregnant? - Of the 3166 callers who answered this question, 25% said yes.
3. Has your partner or ex-partner ever taken off the condom during sex so that you would become pregnant? - Of the 3103 callers who responded, 16% said yes.
4. Has your partner or ex-partner ever made you have sex without a condom so that you would become pregnant? - Of the 3130 callers who responded, 24% said yes.

According to the Family Violence Prevention Fund, the rate of reproductive coercion is probably even higher than these findings showed because some callers who experienced this form of control were not included in the survey because they needed to be referred to help immediately.

leggo

Edited to remove my comment....it was disrespectful and mean. I'm sorry if you read it before I removed it

Claire, so nice to hear a happy ending to what could have been a horrible tragedy.

zap

I am switching back to Madison with a question for  women/men who feel that it is all about money, nothing more when:

Walker refuses to negotiate his stand on the  teacher/nurse collective bargaining they rightfully have at this time under Wisconsin Law (thus the bill under discussion).  Keep in mind the teachers' union did not support Walker in his election.

 YET, Walker is fine with police and fire people and they can rightfully keep their current collective bargaining rights.  Keep in mind the police and fire people supported Walker in his election.

 Finally, the teacher union agreed to Walker's proposed economic concessions, yet teachers want to retain their collective bargaining rights.  They agreed to cuts!  Enough with the money!  But Walker will not budge on the collective bargaining right for teachers and nurses.

 For those who favor Gov. Walker's politics and believe this is just about the state finances, are you disappointed he didn't propose a bill that would erode the collective bargaining rights of the fire people and police as well as the teachers and the nurses? What really is going on here and what is the right  and consistent thing to do.  Please know, however, that I would never want the police and fire people's rights to collective bargaining to be touched by Governor Walker.  Cherry picking?  Classic case.

Also, Shirley, thanks for letting me know about right to work states.  I see there are quite a few of them.  I wish your son well,  We need good teachers like him!

Anonymous

Very provocative numbers notself.  I'm actually surprised that the percentages aren't higher.   Remember that ALLof the women being surveyed are involved in an abusive situation.  Women who are involved in a committed relationship with a caring partner are not calling a domestic violence hot-line, and the survey was conducted onlyamong callers to that hot-line.

Anonymous

For those who favor Gov. Walker's politics and believe this is just about the state finances, are you disappointed he didn't propose a bill that would erode the collective bargaining rights of the fire people and police as well as the teachers and the nurses?

Is it possible that the state contributes a significant percentage of the money used to pay the teachers?  That would give them a stake in how those contracts are negotiated.  The "working conditions" that are sometimes also negotiated as part of those contracts would make it more difficult for the state lawmakers to mandate uniform conditions in schools across the state if each district has a different set of "work place rules" that must be followed. 

If the state government has less of a financial stake in the contracts of police and fire departments, then it would make sense that the current legislation doesn't include them. 

BarbaraA

WOW! you guys have been really busy in the 24 hours I was gone. Gee whiz, 6 pages!!

Too pooped to comment but congrats on no one getting deleted this weekend. WooHoo!

Having Pad Thai and sake tonight. And a side of spinach.

covertanjou

gracie, I did read your post and was not offended; in fact, I agree with you.

Here is the Catholic church's stance on birth control:

n 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence. 

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods. 

 

The Historic Christian Teaching

Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception. 

Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God’s laws comes from a variety of sources that will be examined in this tract. 

 

Nature

Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children. 

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation. 

 http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

The Catholic church believes ANY method (other than the rhythm method) is wrong.  Making abortions illegal is only the first step, IMO.  The next step is to make birth control more difficult to obtain.  Already, doctors are allowed not to prescribe birth control if it goes against their conscience.  

Wabbit

Walker is going after the weaker targets first - teachers and nurses.  Taking them all on at once is more difficult.  Divide and conquer.  Once that is accomplished it will be easier to go after police and firemen and I have no doubt he will do just that.

I somehow ended up on a Republican mailing list.  Seems the strategy is also to wait until after the 2012 elections and then go after Social Security and Medicare hard.  Right now that plan is supposed to be hush hush ... seniors vote you know.  They really should be more careful about who they send their crap to though.

Politicians are always 'playing' us.

kadeeb

Didn't I read somewhere here or hear on the news that the negotiation portion of the governor's proposal still allows for collective barganing as long as it is at or below the rate of inflation. And since they have already agreed to the employee contribution aspects of the bill, what is the disagreement about if not money.

zap

I guess sadly, White Rabbit, I know this is politically what is happening. I just heard that police and firepeople union members are showing up in Madison to join teachers as they know they will be next and they do support teachers. 

 Enough of me.  This has been interesting and I thank all who responded to me.  Politics are frustrating but we have a wonderful country and I love it. 

AnnNYC

kadeeb,

The Wisconsin bill strips away collective bargaining about everything except base pay -- that means, no input from workers and their unions about hours, fringe benefits and conditions of employment. 

Anonymous

WR, republicans are not planning to take away people's SS or reduce it.  The "talk" is they want to up retirement age, but not for anyone 55 and older.  Nothing would take effect for those who have not had a chance to prepare for retirement.  What exactly the plan will be we will see I HOPE. 

The dems are trying to scare the seniors.  The younger people better be more afraid of losing all they have put into SS.  Did you know that there are 10,000 baby bombers having b'days each day for the next 19 years!?

What did you think of the president's deficit panel he appointed?  I wonder how much they got paid and then ignored?

Where do you suppose the money will come from for SS?  They could raise the payroll tax, but I don't think they want to do that.  Oh, the rich can pay for other's SS.  I forgot about them.  I wonder if Kerry ever paid the taxes on that huge yacht he parked OUT OF Massachusetts.  Yep, the super rich love to pay taxes. 

Anonymous

This is only an excerpt of the article. 

What's at Stake in Wisconsin's Budget Battle - WSJ.com  

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop  

Labor historian Fred Siegel offers further reasons why unions are manning the barricades. Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots. In addition, he would end the government's practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks. For Wisconsin teachers, union dues total between $700 and $1,000 a year.

"Ending dues deductions breaks the political cycle in which government collects dues, gives them to the unions, who then use the dues to back their favorite candidates and also lobby for bigger government and more pay and benefits," Mr. Siegel told me. After New York City's Transport Workers Union lost the right to automatic dues collection in 2007 following an illegal strike, its income fell by more than 35% as many members stopped ponying up. New York City ended the dues collection ban after 18 months.

Myron Lieberman, a former Minnesota public school teacher who became a contract negotiator for the American Federation of Teachers, says that since the 1960s collective bargaining has so "greatly increased the political influence of unions" that they block the sorts of necessary change that other elements of society have had to accept.

The labor laws that Wisconsin unions are so bitterly defending were popular during an era of industrialization and centralization. But the labor organizations they protect have become much less popular, as the declining membership of many private-sector unions attests. Moreover, it's become abundantly clear that too many government workers enjoy wages, benefits and pensions that are out of line with the rest of the economy.

Mr. Walker's argument-that public workers shouldn't be living high off the hog at the expense of taxpayers-is being made in other states facing budget crises. But the left observed the impact of the tea party last year and seems determined to unleash a more aggressive version of its own by teaming up with union allies. Organizing for America is already coordinating protests against proposed reforms in Ohio, Michigan and Missouri.

_____________________________________________________________

Unions were much more needed years ago...not today.  There are laws on the books that protect the worker. 

kadeeb

Ann NC, 

The hours are pretty much set for teachers, I can't really see the state extending them more than 40 hours a week. There's a federal law against it called the "Fair Labor Standards Act" , as far as conditions are concerned, the government pretty much sets that now with class size and equipment requirements. Now fringe benefits, sounds like another word for money to me but with one distinction. Fringe benefits are not usually taxable so that's not only money, but money that carries no tax liability.

annettek

this is controversial but it there is a woman on the west coast...she is offering 1000 bucks for people to get sterilized- no questions asked.. she targets addicts, homeless, etc....of course there is outrage for taking advantage of people in dire circumstances but then again is she not protecting children from ebing born into a hell not of their own making....I don't know...kind of makes sense to me. People say the women will use the money for drugs...well, ok...that is their choice at least they have that choice, whereas a child has no choice about being born with all the hell involved being born with drugs floating around their system...this is prevention to the nth degree I found an article talking about when I was reading all of this about PP.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/11/02/paying-drugaddicted-women-sterilized

ananda8

If the salary cap on social security is completely removed, the rich will pay more. 

Let me define rich.  When there is a waiting list for a handbag that costs $35,000, then the people on that list are rich.  They certainly can afford to pay into Social Security as well as pay the same tax rate that they did under Clinton.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7490705