I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Wabbit

Some private enterprise employees are appreciated and treated well.  Some who work very hard and do an excellent job are repaid by having their pay and benefits cut on a whim ... or being terminated the minute they start getting older and replaced with younger, cheaper workers.  There are more and more of the later now days. 

Those who are smart do seriously consider employment in the public sector ... even though quite often the pay is less ... because they have some rights which make it less likely that they will be stabbed in the back with no warning. 

So much of this sounds like jealousy to me.  I have no rights or protection ...  I don't want you to have them either. 

Anybody who thinks it is such a fantastic deal is free to pursue public employment for themselves.  What I'm hearing instead is waaaah ... I don't have it and I want you to lose your rights too. 

Walker is paying back those who financed his campaign ... with union busting.  That is what this is about.   

IronJawedBCAngel

Union or not is pretty much irrelevent, this is another strike against the middle class and labor, and everyone should be concerned.  Even if you are not a public employee, the end result of this will impact you and your rights as an employee in our workforce.  The United States has become a far more employer/corporation friendly society since Reagan, and the middle class has paid for it dearly.  We work harder, for longer hours, with less pay and benefits than we had in the 70's.  The gap between the wealthy and the poor has gotten ever wider, while the "middle class" is disappearing into the bottom of the pool.  The proposed budget by the GOP has a target firmly on the backs of the poor and the middle class.  The defunding of Planned Parenthood yesterday will lead to women going without life saving mammograms, pap smears, HIV testing and birth control.  There will be more unplanned pregnancies, which will result in more abortions, women dying in childbirth, and more children being cared for by medicaid, of course that will be if the GOP doesn't slash that also. What do you think that will do to our deficit? Funding for cancer screenings and research was slashed yesterday.  None of you are concerned about that?  I for one am absolutely sickened by what is happening in Wisconsin and Washington.  Like Bush and the Weapons of Mass Destruction, Walker has manipulated the numbers to create this "crisis", and according to Forbes, the neo-con Koch Brothers are behind much of it.  The protests have remained peaceful and respectful so far, but it will be interesting to see what happens when the Tea Party members are bussed in.  Can't help but wonder if the end result will be something like what happened in Egypt when the pro-government protesters were brought in.

I will not take the GOP and Tea Party members declaration of fiscal responsibility seriously until they accept removing the tax cuts from the upper 2% of our income earners, and close the loopholes for corporations that register their companies abroad.  It is the height of hypocricy for them to defund social programs, target collective bargaining, and put the brunt of the responsibility on the backs of the poor, while protecting the millions of their super wealthy friends.

I stand firmly with my friends in Wisconsin who stand against Governor Walker.

Have a good day, peeps!

otter

"...if they had the skills to compete in the private sector for their job, they wouldn't be public employees."

Yeah, I know.  I recognize the scent of bait.  Rah rah rah.  "Those who can, do; those who can't teach."   It's so old that it's not funny anymore.

So, who is supposed to teach the children how to read, and repair the broken water main, and put out the house fire, and inspect the kitchen at the local restaurant?  I don't see very many folks from the private sector stepping up to the plate, offering to do those things. Even when those jobs are privatized (as they are in some communities), they are still the same jobs, often performed by the same people only under different management.

In my field of study, there was far more money to be gained by working in the private sector, than working in a "public" position.  Not just a few thousand dollars a year, but sometimes as much as 5 or 10 times my salary -- and I made a halfway decent living doing what I did.  People who left "cushy" public jobs like mine to work in the private sector not only made more money, .... they were freed from the constant challenge of teaching 19-year-olds esoteric subjects like physics and calculus.  They no longer had to answer phone calls from distraught homeowners whose lawns had turned brown.  They didn't have to serve on committees that decided what the parking fines should be on campus, or whether undergraduates should be required to take a foreign language, or who should be hired as dean of the library.  (It's a long list...)  I am convinced that most people chose careers in the public sector because they enjoy the work, regardless of the lower salary and the other distractions.

My cousin is a captain in the fire department in his community.  His dad was a captain there, too, as is one of his sons.  (The other is a state highway patrolman.)  Public service runs in that family.

My sister is a nurse at a public hospital.  Her skills are such that she could leave any time and go anywhere, and probably double her salary.  But she likes where she lives, and she likes where she works... so she stays there.

This bashing of public employees is so old and tired.  Whether we support collective bargaining by public employees or not, there's not much to be gained in trying to demean the work they do.  I won't buy those arguments, and I suspect I'm not alone.

otter

AnnNYC

JBinOK, you may choose not to believe it -- but all the people I mentioned are highly skilled, hard-working, and have worked in the private sector.  The nurse is indeed brilliant, working in an excellent University Hospital that is matched in quality in the state only by a private-sector not-for-profit clinic affiliated with a Catholic Hospital where other members of the same family work. The chem teacher had high-paying offers from industry (and his wife chose that route) but actually felt a mission to educate young people.  The dental hygienist worked in the private sector, but because of her health issues and those of her children chose lower pay and more secure benefits in the public sector.  The city administrative worker worked in private sector travel industry for 25+ years until the crash of 2008 crashed the travel industry. The parks/roads guy could compete in the private sector, but his kind of work hasn't been privatized, yet -- and I imagine the people who are able to drive safely to and from their jobs (in whatever sector!) in the winter in Wisconsin are grateful for what he does!!!!!!

Alpal

Otter - thank you for your wonderful post. And to all of those who lurk here - Otter is not one of us "libtards" - but she is a smart, sensbile woman who knows what's going on in our world and is not afraid to voice her opinion. 

208sandy

I am having a rather bad day - I need some anti-troll spray as I've been put on "restriction" - got caught "telling the truth" on another thread night before last and have had the flu all week - just to make matters worse I have pneumonia and can't taste or smell anything (who know why that is) on megadose antibiotics and ordered to "take it easy" for three or four days - YIKES!

About Wisconsin - interesting how the rich and powerful are trying to stick it to the average person and their families once again - thought those angry tea partiers were supposed to be looking out for the people (yah right!).

AnnNYC

208sandy -- hope you feel better soon!

IronJawedBCAngel

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/us/workers-have-a-right-to-organize/

Governor Walker apparently may be violating international law.  

What's for supper?  Trying to decide between grilling something, gumbo, or enchiladas.

Remember ladies, the ignore button is a great way to not feed the trolls!

Ahhhhhh, silence!

1Athena1

Ewwww - I think the house cat just dragged something in and I can smell it.

Does anyone have that spray handy?

AnnNYC

The Pope also thinks workers' rights should be protected:

"The repeated calls issued within the Church's social doctrine, beginning with Rerum Novarum[60], for the promotion of workers' associations that can defend their rights must therefore be honoured today even more than in the past, as a prompt and far-sighted response to the urgent need for new forms of cooperation at the international level, as well as the local level."

[from Pope Benedict XVI's 2009 encyclical, "Caritas in Veritate": http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html ]

zap

I never post here, but I step in to read.  Today I need to post.  First of all, I am so grateful to read posts by very intelligent people who care about presenting thoughtful ideas.  I am bothered by people who take up space and rile others with flip comments that offer no real insight.

 I am a retired teacher.  I taught for 25 years and I worked hard because that was the expectation at my school.  My collegues and my parents expected me to put forth my best effort, and so I did.  I am now doing a maternity sub job for a young woman who gave birth to her first child.  She is taking the minimum leave as she must for economic reasons.  Many of the teachers I work with are there because they love their profession, yet they are working for childcare and BENEFITS.  They rely on the spouse's income to pay rent and buy food.  It is all about health benefits for many teachers.

Teachers and nurses deserve fair pay, benefits and a pension program.  Those who feel that Wisconsin legislation should limit the above, ought really to shadow a nurse or teacher for six weeks.  Then if they have the degrees they need to do so, they should subsitute in a classroom for eight weeks.  If they are still vertical, they should  retrun to school to get certified (many districts  require masters) and take on the job of nursing or teacher to really understand how demanding these jobs are.  We are dealing with people, and people bring a great deal of baggage with them. Teachers and nurses need to be protected with fair pay, benefits and pension.

I simply wish that people would not post their opinions on teachers and nurses and what they deserve, unless they teach or nurse for even a short while to see how demanding these professions really are. There are some burned out teachers and nurses and they should not be on the payrolls, but they are.  There are many, many more dedicated teachers  and nurses who give far more than they receive and we need for them not to get burned out with a return to poor pay and fewer benefits.

I do not wish to pass judgement on the tea party showing up in Madison.  I so wish a dialog, a meaningful one, could take place between the workers and the tea party members.  Sadly, I am afraid it will just turn to anger and rhetoric and both will leave with no understanding on where to go so that kids and patients are well-cared for in this country.

Thank you!

1Athena1

JBinOK:

I honestly don't believe you have an idea of what you are talking about. Who is criticizing the rich? How do you know that some of us here aren't rich, for that matter.

Do you assume as much about people's political views as you do about their reaction to breast cancer? If so, I suggest reading all posts so that you won't be hampered by lack of knowledge.

1Athena1

Sandy, I am sorry to hear about your pneumonia! Here is the spray that you and I and others are looking for. Instructions: Wear a mask and shake well! 

URL for this important household item:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yFeC-Omt3c8/SK6Z1ZDjz2I/AAAAAAAAAao/IjytkOstgxM/s400/258Troll_spray.jpg

Some of this country's most brilliant thinkers have been in the public sector at one time or another; indeed, where would we be without them. They are there to serve their country. I have never been a public employee myself, but living in an area cluttered with them, I can say that there is no difference in terms of competency. In both the public and private sector, each office has its own company culture. You have people who pull their weight and those who do not. You have injustices, cronyism and undeserved bonuses on both ends. You have extraordinary work ethic, talent and respect on both ends. To make a blanket statement about the difference between a private versus a public employee is absurd.

Alpal

Zap - wonderful post - thank you.

otter

[Deleted by otter.  Never mind. Sometimes it's just not worth the bother.]

lewing

Thanks, Zap and Otter.  Sandy208, I'm sorry to learn you're on restriction . . . I cannot imagine you posting anything even the least bit mean.  And I'm even sorrier you have pneumonia and can't smell or taste.  I hope the misery is shortlived.

Athena, I really hope that troll spray works!

L

1Athena1

And I say "great post" to IronJawedBCAngel.

I will never take seriously any protestation of cuts in the name of "fiscal responsibility" from people who refuse to consider tax increases/loophole closings along with the savings. A cuts only approach is merely a thinly disguised ideological and social agenda posing as fiscal restraint.

Besides, the best cuts are the ones that have medium and long-term impact on what is known as the debt-to-GDP ratio - and on that, all the people who know what they are talking about in economics agree (I, being no economist, will merely assent and report). The dollar figure size of the deficit is not the problem, but, rather, the size when compared to the economy as a whole.

Obama's budget goes a long way towards addressing this over the next decade, although the more distant future remains uncertain and some feel he should have done much more.

Eliminating things like federal funding to Planned Parenthood are part of a social agenda - they will do nothing to address our growing debt and no one should believe otherwise. The types of cuts needed are those that control the rise in spending for things we cannot avoid, namely healthcare, healthcare healthcare.  Ironically, such cuts are in the new healthcare bill. They are to Medicare, and conservatives who say they dislike government run healthcare are ironically some of the loudest opponents of Medicare cuts.

And there is the ever present danger of cutting too much. Slash government enough and you will be starving for tax revenue and essential services, thus doing nothing to either improve our fiscal house or our QOL.

iodine

Forgive my fairly uninformed comments:

If the state needs to cut the budget, then what the govenor needed was to cut it, not attack unions.  To do so is what he messed up on.  The cuts he presented are reasonable, from what I understand--increased in employees payments for pension and health care.  It's his tack on with the loss of unions that was his undoing.

I will admit that I am not a fan of unions, and especially forced membership of same.  The gov. just should have stuck to the $$ needs and left off the unions.  If he had plans for opposing them - do so in the future, not when he needs money to run the state.  From the liberal press (I'm a moderate) I read that the budget was in good shape till the gov gave a way a bunch of $$, so he really doesn't have a leg to stand on, IMO.

Ok, have a great weekend everyone!

We had herbed chicken, and my dh actually complimented me on it!  That's happened only a few times, so it was worth noting.  LOL

AnnNYC

Good post, Dotti -- and exactly what many public employees in Wisconsin are saying.  To quote one:

"I listened to 76 people speak against the Budget Repair Bill last night, and not one of them said they wouldn't contribute more to their insurance or pension. In fact, a common comment was 'they never asked us.' This is not the issue here. State employees want, and deserve, a voice in the decisions that affect them."

rosemary-b

The question was how do you know some of us here are not rch? That is not the same as "how do you know some of us here are rich" which is what JBinOK answered. I am one of the shrinking middle class, at least for now and am appalled at the harm being done to the poor.

Bren-2007

Iodine .. I feel like you do.  Why attack the unions?  Makes no sense when they were willing to work with him.  And why aren't the policeman and fireman included in his union bashing?  Smells like fishy politics to me.

Bren

rosemary-b

There are some politicians who never learn that the easiest way to have only one term is to always give lavshly and obviously to your biggest supporters and ignore or do things that injure everybody else.

1Athena1

Apparently, Wisconsin's plight is having a Tunisia effect on other states:

From The New York Times:

Wisconsin Leads Way as Workers Fight State Cuts

By MICHAEL COOPER and KATHARINE Q. SEELYE

The unrest in Wisconsin this week over Gov. Scott Walker's plan to cut the bargaining rights and benefits of public workers is spreading to other states.

Already, protests erupted in Ohio this week, where another newly elected Republican governor, John Kasich, has been seeking to take away collective bargaining rights from unions.

In Tennessee, a law that would abolish collective bargaining rights for teachers passed a State Senate committee this week despite teachers' objections. Indiana is weighing proposals to weaken unions. Union members in Pennsylvania, who are not necessarily facing an attack on their bargaining rights, said Friday that they planned to wear red next week to show solidarity with the workers in Wisconsin.

In many states, Republicans who came to power in the November elections, often by defeating union-backed Democrats, are taking aim not only at union wages, but at union power as they face budget gaps in the years ahead.

FULL ARTICLE

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/us/politics/19states.html?_r=1&ref=us&pagewanted=print

rosemary-b

JB

That's what I get for quibbling about details.

I will take your post as a compliment to all English teachers everywhere. I am sure they would thank you for your recogniion of their competence.

ananda8

With the mention of Nazis this thread has evoked Godwin's Law:

"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Just to correct what I have heard on some talk radio shows, Obama is not a Nazi.  If one wants to use a slur, then one should most appropriately call him a Communist.  Nazis/Fascist are the extreme of the right.  Communists are the extreme of the left.  There is a difference. 

In Spain prior to WWII, there was a civil war between the fascist Franco regime and the Socialist Republicans supported by the Soviet Union.  2000 Americans, including Hemingway, fought on the side of the SR including Hemingway.  The Franco Regime was supported by Nazi Germany and received donations of money and equipment such as trucks and tanks from General Motors, Ford and Firestone Rubber and Tire Company.  Franco (the fascist) won.

zap

The fire and police unions supported Walker's election as Gov of Wisconsin.  The teacher  union did not and I do not know about the nurses and their union. I would suppose their union also did not endorse Walker.   It will be interesting to see what happens in Illinois, where the unions endorsed the Democratic Govenor.   All states it seems, are in dire financial shape, but the situation in Madison is clearly connected to politics when it comes to which unions are being targeted.

revkat

In our school district the teachers' union and the board met together to deal with a $50 million cut in state funding over the past two years (equals to more than $1000 per student cut from the budget!). Together they decided to cut teachers's pay 8% (and our administrators also took a 10% pay cut!), together they decided what to do about class sizes at different levels. The teachers' union recognized the financial situation the district was in and the district showed respect for the teachers' opinions. So even though things are tough, there is a feel of sharing in the decision and sharing the pain.

1Athena1

Notself:

I see one major dilemma. The problem with calling Obama a communist is that it automatically makes him a red - and today's reds are Republicans. It is their color. So anyone itching to call Obama a communist had better be careful - in pointing the finger, you might poke out your own eye. A friendly warning from your neighborhood red -oops! 

Bren-2007

Athena ... too funny .. 'poke out  your own eye.'

Bren

rosemary-b

I never got the Obama is a Nazi rhetoric either.