Bible Study for the Biblically Challenged Anyone?

moodyk13

I am back and doing GREAT!  Been on pain meds till today, and today I have been "detoxing" LOL-  my mind was finally clear enough to get on puter and "catch up"  Now I am only taking tylenol.  So back to the bible? 

I'll pick up with Hagar when everyone is ready?  Let me know.

P.S. We have a new sister in our bc sorority   Her name is Carmen and she is the wife of our hispanic minister.  She is only 37yrs old!  Her mom was diagnosed at age 42, Carmen found a lump back in Jan, and her doc told her it was nothing!  In march she went back a demanded a mammo, radiologist read it NEG!!!  She asked for ultrasound and was told NO!!!!!  Now her tumor is too big to operate and onco said she will need chemo 2-3months min first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please be in prayer for her and her family.  She has 2 small children and a GREAT attitutde!

EWB

MOODY- GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK AND full of energy on the bd.

LuAnnH

Rock, thanks for the offer been so busy on the phone trying to take care of everything that is going on.....  I hope to get myself back on track quickly.  Moody glad you are doing ok, needless to say I don't thing we have gotten anywhere without you!     I will need a couple more days to sort out my messes at my home before I get a moment to think or have to myself.

moodyk13

EWB- Gosh, thanks LOL  I am not sure that "energy" is what I am full of...................... But I am back, and loving the "new girls"! 

LuAnn I hope everything is okay, and don't worry, we'll wait on you.  There is no hurry.

moodyk13

faithandfifty!  happy birthday!!! I had to find out by reading the "active" topics!  shame on you!  When my birthday comes, i'll be telling everyone just cuz!!! 

Anyway HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!

LuAnnH

ok moody I need to get back on track.  I left off on chapter 23 where abraham was tested by God by taking his son and offering him for sacrifice.  This one is a tough chapter for me, I want to say I am not sure how I would have handled this situation.  But in all honesty I know I wouldn't be able to offer to put my child on the alter to die if God asked me to.  What are you all's opinions, what would you do in this situation?  You don't know in the end that God would say stop it was a test.

moodyk13

That is excellent question and I am going to offer my opinions, but I want some time on it soI dont rush.  I have some billing to do and a site to load to the internet so it will be a little while before I can answer.

moodyk13

Well, I have been sooooo busy today and just have gotten a chance to respond. 

I ain't gonna lie, I couldn't past this test.  In fact, I would check myself into the first "psyc" hospital I can find telling them I was hearing voices telling me to sacrifice my child!!!!

Thank God, He would not test us like this.  I believe He only puts us throught tests that He KNOWS we will pass, even if we initially resist.  He knew Abraham would do as told as He knew Abraham's faith was unshakeable. 

Can you imagine what Isaac must have thought?  His dad is tying him up, he sees an altar, he gets laid on the altar, sees no animals........he had to be freaking out!

But there are a couple of things I am not sure you noticed, so I am going to point them out.  Rather be told twice than never told, I always say!

First, God says in 22:2 "Then He said, 'Take now your son, your only son Isaac,....'" Ishmael was born first, so Abraham had TWO sons but God refers to Isaac as his "only" son!  Gives me goose bumps!

Second, notice in 22:2  "....and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell you."    Guess what is the land of Moriah?  A.K.A Jerusalem.....The highest point is Golgotha, same spot where Solomon's temple was built, and Jesus, God's only Son was Crucified!!!!!

Third, notice in 22:5  "....and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you."  Abrahams says "we" will return.  Already, before he got there, he knew God would work this out some how- I could only dream of having that kind of faith!!!!!

LuAnnH

I'm with you moody I would be off to the looney bin my faith I don't think could be that strong.  I guess the thing of this is though we are talking a different era and with the way things were happening and Abrahams life and all that God had given him and done and proved to him maybe I wouldn't 2nd guess this.  Think about the fact that God told him he would give him a child at such a late age and all the other miraculous things that had been happening.  You know, maybe I would be so (can't come up with the right word) into what is happening that I may go with it and not question what is happening.  I guess I can't say, think about how someone can lift a car when it is on top of someone.  You just react as opposed to act and that may have been the type of thinking.  Plus why would Abraham have any reason to doubt God would do something to intentionally hurt him.  Just one of those head scratchers, thats for sure!

moodyk13

Okay den, We are moving on to Hagar!

STUDY #1- HAGAR

Hagar

  Hagar's role and her son Ishmael is instrumental in the "birth" of muslims.  In fact, the muslims claim their connection to Abraham is through Hagar and Ishmael.  Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael.

Here is an excerpt regarding Ishmael:  16:11 "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shall call his name Ishmael; because the LORD has heard your affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

Genesis chapter 16 we are introduced to Hagar.  She is Sarah's maid and she is an Egyptian (this is muy importante).  Sarah at this point is bearen and so she wants Hagar to be her surrogate.  She "gives" Hagar to Abraham to be his 2^nd wife and have his child.  Of course Hagar conceives and of course Sarah gets jealous!  They are women just like we are...well maybe not like us as I would never "give" my hubby a 2^nd wife.....LOL  but they do get jealous!

Gen 16:5 "So Sarai complained to Abram, "I'm being treated unfairly! And it's your fault! I know that I gave my slave to you, but now that she's pregnant, she's being disrespectful to me. May the LORD decide who is right--you or me."

Gen 16:6 "Abram answered Sarai, "Here, she's your slave. Do what you like with her." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar so much that she ran away."

Then the Angel of the Lord goes to her and gives her explicit instructions

Gen 16:12 "Go back to Sarah, submit to her.  You are having a son and you gonna name him Ishmael which means "God hears".  But he is gonna be a "wild man and his hand shall be against every man and every man's hand shall be against him."

OOO lots of thoughts with this one.  I wouldnt go back, but obviously Hagar too was obedient to God and did.

Could you go back to someone who mistreated you so badly and SUBMIT to them????

What if God told you the child you were carrying was going to be against everyone and everyone against him?

LuAnnH

It doesn't make sense why people did the things they did back in that era.  I guess this is where faith comes in, you have to believe it happpened. 

LuAnnH

I miss our thread, I have really been out of the loop lately and would like to get gack on track hre.

moodyk13

We miss u too!  We'll get started back good after Christmas,since everyone is so busy!

Anonymous

I just want to get back to Abraham and Isaac a little bit and the possible reason for this test (besides a foreshadowing of God's sacrifice of his ONLY Son) ..

Abraham was surrounded by false worshippers.  It was not uncommon for these worshippers to offer up their young, their firstborn as a human sacrifice.   Jer 7:31 tells us that there were "high places" (altars) set up for the offerings of sons and daughters.   So, Abraham is certainly not the first parent to be submitting to a god ... although THIS time, it is the True God.  So, here he is, the man who left the comforts of town to put his faith in the Kingdom of God, instead of the kingdoms of men, he looked upward for protection; and now, he is apparently going up the mountain to do the same as the false worshippers ... but what happens?  He is stopped by God's Angel  (and later Jer 7:31 tells us that God doesn't desire child sacrifice)!!!  He is again doing something new!  Abraham is putting an end to this awful practice. 

Next thing he does different is the circumsicion on himself and all the males in his family.

Truly this man followed God and not the nations. 

This whole thing shows what a superior and loving God we have; that Abraham had.  We have a God who understands our love for children.  A God who shows us by extreme dramatization that he does not desire us to do certain filthy practices. A God who certainly answers prayers.

Anonymous

And I found this commentary:

Why did God do this to Abraham? A first answer to this is that, at this point, Abraham's faith was not yet as strong as we often think of his faith as being. He openly laughed when God told him that Sarah would bear a child and asked instead that Ishmael receive the blessing (17:17-18). He had participated in a lifetime of using a planned lie (12:10-13; 20:13). Though he had shown himself to be a faithful man, he was not yet the mountain of faith we often think of him as (see God's response to his passing of this test: 22:12).

Another possible answer to the question of this test?s necessity points us to Abraham's love for Isaac. Abraham had waited long for the arrival of Isaac and he was the object of remarkable promises. But strong love such as this, as good and right as it is; can, over a period of time, crowd aside the higher love for God. Perhaps Abraham was,as any human is, in danger of coming in slow degrees, and in a manner hardly observed by himself, to the point where he would have loved his son more than God. Such a danger needed to be faced and worked through. The love of God must consciously be put first.

Aren't you glad that God doesn't call on us to do the same thing?! Oh, but He does:

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"(Matt. 10:37).

Anonymous

I found this one today about Abraham having faith that Isaac would return with him from the mountain ....

-----In today's article we read about the fourth faith test that Abraham received. God made a promise to Abraham that He would confirm the eternal covenant through his son Isaac, but then God does something surprising in that He tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. This faith test that Abraham faced was "the faith test of apparent contradiction." God said the promises would be kept through Isaac but then almost immediately, God is commanding Abraham to sacrifice him. I wonder what went through Abraham's mind. On one hand, the eternal covenant is going to come through the lineage of Isaac and this cannot happen if the line is broken through death. God knew exactly what He was doing but at that point Abraham did not. However, since God made the promise to Abraham that a great eternal lineage would come through Isaac, when he went to sacrifice Isaac in an act of obedience to God, he was convinced that Isaac would return with him to his servants.

(Gen 22:2 KJV) And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

(Gen 22:5 KJV) And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

This was probably the strongest test that Abraham faced. It is easy to pack up and go into the unknown and even to wait, but when you are faced with the reality that you may have to sacrifice one of your family members, then the test becomes a very over-powering test. However, there is one principle in this scenario, which is really not emphasized in the Scripture but I believe is there. Why did Abraham believe that he would return with the lad? Was it because he had hope? Was it because he felt that God would not take his son? I believe it was because Abraham remembered the Words of God concerning Isaac and the eternal covenant. That remembrance of those words allowed Abraham to take whatever action God required of him, even if it seemed like a contradiction in God's commands. This is a great lesson for us. When we holster the promises of God in our mind, we can easily go through those apparent contradictions in which God may be working out in our life. What type of apparent contradictions do we face in our life?

Anonymous

Oh gosh, now I am researching fiend today ...  here is info on Isaac ...  but LuAnn, you can get to it when you get to it ... 

Paul wrote a letter to the Hebrews, chap 11 is often called the "faith" chapter, in it, he recounts another possible reason that Abraham did not resist sacrificing his son:  his belief in a resurrection!! 

-----

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. (Hebrews 11:17-19, NKJV)
The Author of Hebrews here considers Abraham's faith in God to be of such a magnitude that he felt reassured that if God would allow him to perform the task which he'd requested, he would be able to resurrect the slain Isaac, in order that his prophecy (Genesis 21:12) might be fulfilled. Such faith in God's word and in his promise lead this particular Old Testament passage to be regarded by many Christians as an incredibly significant (and exemplary) one.

The majority of Christian Biblical commentators hold this whole episode to be an archetype of the way that God works; this event is seen as foreshadowing God's plan to have his own Son, Jesus, die on the cross as a substitute for humanity, much like the ram God provided for Abraham. And Abraham's willingness to give up his own son Isaac is seen, in this view, as foreshadowing the willingness of God the Father to sacrifice his Son; also contrasted is Isaac's submission in the whole ordeal with Christ's, the two choosing to lay down their own lives in order for the will of God to be accomplished, as no struggle is mentioned in the Genesis account. Indeed, both stories portray the participants carrying the wood for their own sacrifice up a mountain.

-----------------

Many people forget that Isaac was a grown man not a small boy when this happened. Isaac could have easily overpowered an aging father. 

Anonymous

Just wanted to post some pictures of tents and what they would have looked like for the wealthy family of Abraham and his group.  I am sure they had small tents for the individual families but the big tent of the patriarch and gathering tents would have been large.

++

moodyk13

Wow Rock, those are beautiful!  I am sorry I havent posted here for so long, I have been so focused on other things.....shame on me......but I am going to get back asap.  It is after midnight now, so I am not going to attempt to be "coherent" right now.  Hopefully tomorrow I can read your posts and comprehend them....LOL (no pun intended) and maybe even add my two cents worth---or one cent as the case mostly is. 

And then it will be time to move on to next topic!

Anonymous

I just had time to finish up Isaac and Abraham, haven't even gotten to Hagar.  Will try to do that today!  Where's LuAnn???

moodyk13

She has been having some pretty bad family issues AND her markers started going back up!  She has been having to add more pain drugs which as we all know make you sleep so much.  I am hoping she will be back in the groove this week.  I we dont see her post this week I will call her to make sure she is okay.

LuAnnH

I'm here, sort of, been a rough few weeks to say the least.  I get the bad news tomorrow that I will officially be having a progression.  I saw my bone scan and saw new spots so it's a matter of how bad and I get that news tomorrow.  I also have to leave for PA until Saturday so I will be on the road again.  I am so exhausted I am starting to not even know my name.  On a good note, my son called from Iraq and he said the next time he calls me he will be in Kuwait awaiting his transport back to the USA!  He is done with his Iraq tour and will be stationed in TX.  Now i have to try and help him settle back in to tTX and start chemo which will be interesting.  Based on what we think is happening I have a couple of choices but we don't have a clue what all might show up on those scans.  Keep your fingers crossed for me.

LuAnnH

PS, I am really going to get back into this discussion after the weekend.  The kids will be heading back to school and things will slow down and quiet down.  I really miss reading and discussing.

Anonymous

Aww LuAnn, I will be praying for you and for the strength to deal with this.  Love you so much!!

moodyk13

LuAnn  I pray for you every night and I know God is hearing me.  I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it all go away!

YEAH about your son, that will be one HUGE load off your shoulders to have him back on USA soil! 

I have been waiting on you so dont worry.  Anyone reading that doesnt want to wait for you can PM me and I will send rest on Hagar.  You just do what you gotta do!

Heavenly Father, my Lord and Savior, Lord I just come before you tonight and I lift up my special sister LuAnn to You right now, sweet Jesus.  Lord, just cover her in your love and grace and mercy, and Lord God, touch her body and shrink her tumors.  Lord God, you know my heart, I am not asking for Your will be done and for us to accept it, I am asking You to heal her.  You already know that this is what is in my heart, so I ask you to just lay Your healing hands on her and shrink her tumors.  Lord, we give You all the praise and all the glory in everything You do, even things we dont understand. and Lord God, we give You the glory now as You are working in LuAnn's life already.  I just don't believe You have brought her this far to call her up to You just yet.  Lord I feel like You are working a miracle for her and her testimony will bring others to know You.  Lord, Jesus, I love you, I praise You, I glorify Your name and I pray your blessings on all of us.  In Jesus' sweet name I pray, Amen.

sue_blue

Amen.

LuAnnH

Moody, thanks!  Onc called today and info is contradictory so we will work this out after I get back from my trip to PA.  In the meantime the set me up with a rads onc that is going to do SRS or cyber knife, one of those to my sternum to zap that resistent tumor out of here!  This has been my main tumor load and will not die no matter what we do so it has to go!!!!  Thank you ladies and all that are hanging with me.  I really want to get back into this.  I will take my bible with me on my trip again and maybe take a few quiet moments to just keep reading and figure out what is going on.

I can't tell you how much you all are helping this make sense to me.  I can't believe I went to church all the time for the first 20 years of my life and never got near as much out of as I am working through these chapters with you all.  I know we have barely touched the barrel but to me this helping pulling everything together.  Thanks!  I love you all!!!!

moodyk13

LuAnn, its contradictory because your cancer is beginning to regress.  I am telling you, I just know God has way more to do with you and He isnt gonna take you any time soon.  I know this probably sounds crazy, but I don't care, I have such a deep feeling that you are going to go into remission.  I will continue to ask God to do this and I just know He hears our prayers.  You just gotta believe it too.

I love you dearly and I am so glad you are enjoying learning the Bible.  It tickles me when you say you are taking your bible with you, that is awesome.  And it is a testimony to the people you are going to stay with, whether you realise it or not. See, this is another example of how God is using YOU to reach others for Him!

God bless you and I pray for you: safe travels, enjoyement, and Happy New Year!!!!

moodyk13

God's Word:  The History of the Bible

My purpose for this post is not to "debate" or "defend" that the Bible is the Divine Word of God, unchanged since Moses began it.  The purpose of this post is to tell readers why I believe that the Bible is the Divine Word of God, unchanged since Moses began it.  In addition, it is fascinating history that deserves to be considered.

So I encourage every reader to follow the post, then decide for themselves the validity of the Bible.  There will be many different opinions and I am in no place to say who is "right" and who is "wrong".  I am only in the perfect place of relating what my personal beliefs are and why.

With that said, here is the "History of the Bible"

• Authorship:  The original texts were written either by the author's own hand or by a scribe under their personal supervision.
• Manuscripts: Until Gutenberg first printed the Latin Bible in 1456, all Bibles were hand copied onto papyrus, parchment, and paper.
• Translations: When the Bible is translated into a different language it is usually translated from the original Hebrew and Greek. However some translations in the past were derived from an earlier translation. For example the first English translation by John Wycliffe in 1380 was prepared from the Latin Vulgate.

The Bible comes from two main sources - Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament was written primarily in Hebrew, with some books written in Aramaic.  The New Testament was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

The Old Testament

1450-1400 B.C. The traditional date for Moses' writing of Genesis-Deuteronomy was written in Hebrew.  It was after Nebuchadnezzar captures the Jews in 586 B.C. that they began to speak Aramaic.

The following is a list of the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament that are still in existence.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: date from 200 B.C. - 70 A.D. and contain the entire book of Isaiah and portions of every other Old Testament book but Esther.
• Geniza Fragments: portions the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic, discovered in 1947 in an old synagogue in Cairo, Egypt, which date from about 400 A.D.
• Ben Asher Manuscripts: five or six generations of this family made copies of the Old Testament using the Masoretic Hebrew text, from 700-950 A.D.
• Aleppo Codex: contains the complete Old Testament and is dated around 950 A.D. Unfortunately over one quarter of this Codex was destroyed in anti-Jewish riots in 1947.
• Codex Leningradensis: The complete Old Testament in Hebrew copied by the last member of the Ben Asher family in A.D. 1008.

400 B.C. The Old Testament began to be translated into Aramaic and is called the Aramaic Targums.   In the first century Palestine of Jesus' day, Aramaic was still the commonly spoken language.

250 B.C. The Old Testament was translated into Greek. This translation is known as the Septuagint. It is sometimes designated "LXX" (which is Roman numeral for "70") because it was believed that 70 to 72 translators worked to translate the Hebrew Old Testament in Greek.
The following is a list of the oldest Greek LXX translations of the Old Testament that are still in existence.

• Chester Beatty Papyri: Contains nine Old Testament Books in the Greek Septuagint and dates between 100-400 A.D.
• • Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus each contain almost the entire Old Testament of the Greek Septuagint and they both date around 350 A.D.

This concludes the history of the Old Testament writings.  For the sake of length of this post, I will do the New Testament in a separate post.

moodyk13

The New Testament

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence.

• 125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. 
• 200 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus a manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.
• 200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical Papyrus contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.
• 225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.
• 250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.
• 350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.
• 350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475.
• 195 A.D. The name of the first translation of the Old and New Testaments into Latin was termed Old Latin, both Testaments having been translated from the Greek. Parts of the Old Latin were found in quotes by the church father Tertullian, who lived around 160-220 A.D. in north Africa and wrote treatises on theology.
• 300 A.D. The Old Syriac was a translation of the New Testament from the Greek into Syriac.
• 300 A.D. The Coptic Versions: Coptic was spoken in four dialects in Egypt. The Bible was translated into each of these four dialects.
• 380 A.D. The Latin Vulgate was translated by St. Jerome. He translated into Latin the Old Testament from the Hebrew and the New Testament from Greek. The Latin Vulgate became the Bible of the Western Church until the Protestant Reformation in the 1500's.
• Other early translations of the Bible were in Armenian, Georgian, and Ethiopic, Slavic, and Gothic.
• 1380 A.D. The first English translation of the Bible was by John Wycliffe. He translated the Bible into English from the Latin Vulgate. This was a translation from a translation and not a translation from the original Hebrew and Greek. Wycliffe was forced to translate from the Latin Vulgate because he did not know Hebrew or Greek.

This concludes the history of the New Testament.  My next post will be on how it was "put  together" and the actual printing history of the bible.