I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange
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Educating Our Children: Catholic Schools Doing More With Less By Anne Marie Riha - February 08, 2011Earlier this month, President Obama challenged high schools across the county to compete against each other in the second annual "Race to the Top" educational success program for the chance to have him give the commencement address at their graduation. Not included in the contest, though, are the more than 2 million students in America's Catholic schools.If they could participate, the nation's parochial schools would be fearsome competitors.
A 2009 comparison between public and Catholic school SAT scores show that public school students had an overall average of 496 points on the critical reading portion of the test while Catholic school students scored 533 points on the same portion. Catholic school students outscored their public school counterparts by an average of 23 points.What makes the numbers more impressive is that Catholic high schools spend more than $2,000 less per pupil than public schools. Explanations for the differences in achievement vary.Students who attended Catholic schools say they were more disciplined and the approach to academics was more regimented. Bridget Ledford, who is a science major at Catholic University in Washington, D.C., says she doesn't think she would have gotten the grades she got in high school if she had attended a public school.Ledford explained that her Catholic elementary school had a grading system where students received an A-plus or an A-minus and not just an A, subtle differences generally not applied in public schools until later years."There was a big focus on academics," Ledford said in an interview, emphasizing that she enjoyed the smaller classes.But educators who have taught in both public and Catholic education systems say a Catholic school students' achievements are the result of more than just discipline, they begin with their parents' choice to pay extra for education.Karen Ristau, who is the President of the National Catholic Educational Association, says that parental choice sets the tone for the student because it "gives a child a real sense of security knowing that the adults are taking responsibility of the child's education."And Ristau says, that sense of responsibility continues with teachers. Ristau, who began her career as a public school teacher, says teachers are "choosing to teach [at Catholic institutions] instead of belonging to some big pool of applicants in a large district where people are just assigned to a school."Another advantage that Catholic schools enjoy is flexibility.Very few parochial school teachers are members of the powerful education unions at the center of so many of the fights to reform the public education system."When unions get involved in having contracts in schools, they tend to control everything from the operations, to who gets hired... and even the curriculum for that matter," Jeanne Allen who heads the Center for Education Reform told FOX News.Education experts say the absence of teachers' unions means Catholic schools can address problems related to curriculum or even class size immediately instead of getting permission from union leaders or renegotiating contacts. Ristau explains that teachers and principals in Catholic schools can address these issues by simply sitting around a table instead of waiting for "five committees downtown" to reach a decision.To read the whole article:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/08/educating-children-catholic-schools-doing/(Edited to make type smaller - oops, it didn't work. NO I'm NOT "screaming".) -
Public schools are not as stringently controlled as the article implies. A good teacher can do the same type of things in the public schools but the accomplishments may be deminished by the fact that she has 50 students instead of 20 and 2 of them threatened the teacher that morning and 12 more are sleeping because they were up all night scared to death because the neighborhood bullies were shooting up the place. The scores may not be as high but the public system invented the "do more with less" situation.
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Laura - you're so loud tonight! LOL Most public school teachers in Kentucky are not members of a union. However, in every town I know about the Catholic schools are better than the public schools. And this has been true for as long as I can remember. In Lexington and Louisville (the two largest cities in the state) not only are they superior in academics, but also in athletics. Around here, at least, their superiority has nothing to do with unions.
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Barbara, you must be exhausted. Regardless whether you work (and you do) or not, emotional exhaustion (stress) is far worse. It is a good sign that your brother will be getting out of ICU. I would think that physical therapy would help with his swallowing.
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Education was one of top priorities for our girls. Thus, private schools.
Yes, my SIL teaches in a Title 1 school. It's pathetic. And, no, he's not a member of a union...no union dues. His pay is not good.
The DNC will be having their convention this year in Charlotte. Unions are not happy. Why? Because we are one of the states that have very few unions.
Here's some truths and if they don't make you upset then nothing will. There are good teachers out there, but unfortunately many bad ones who cannot be terminated.
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BTW, my SIL does not have 50 students in one class.
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Shirley - I watched both of your youtube links. You're preaching to the choir. I don't think there is a single poster on this thread who would argue that our public schools are in great shape. I didn't hear the word "union" in either of those links. As I stated previously, our local schools do not have a union and when the powers that be decide that a teacher who has been around for a while needs to removed from the classroom, they invent a job in central office for them. I've seen it happen many many times. Obviously being an ineffective teacher is not grounds for dismissal in this town. It just happened in August with the principal of the middle school (who should have been fired after his first year). He's now ensconced in the central office making the same salary! Once again - our education program is broken, but I don't think you can blame unions.
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Kaleeb - do you have a linkie for your post? I would really like to know a public school system where the norm is 50 kids. Teachers here complain if there are over 20, Milwaukee - one of the worst school systems in the country average class size is around 15
Here are some statistics on MPS. How many of you could keep your job if you failed this miserably? Not counting you Lew. Detroit is the only place worser, worsest than MPS
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Politics drives education in Alabama and it is being driven into the ground. Plain and simple. The educational system is used to pay favors and influence legislation. We have good teachers and we have those that should never have darkened a classroom door. The union makes it impossible to reward the good ones or rid ourselves of the bad. AEA swings a might sword in the state and protects both. Scores in math and science are laughable. Forty percent of graduating seniors test remedial for math. We recently had an incentive backed by AEA whereby a highschool teacher could get a $5000 raise by becoming "highly qualified". One of the requirements was that a teacher should complete an additional 3 semester hours in a college level math. The colleges were required by the state board of education to add a MTH 116 to the schedule. Although the math carries a course number indicating college level (above 100), in actuality the course work is 9th grade math (pre-algebra). The colleges will not count this math as college level in any degree plan they have and it cannot be used to fulfill a math requirement for graduation from the college. The whole thing was to provide teachers (good and bad) with an opportunity to get a $5000 dollar raise and what did they have to do for it, pass a 9th grade math class. The whole thing sux.
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Not the norm Erica but it happens. Don't need a link, My sister had 53 for 6 weeks until they could hire another teacher.
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Chicago public schools are quite horrible. Gangs, metal detectors, drugs, bullying. My niece lives in what's considered one of the least crime areas of Chicago. When she was in 7th grade, there was lots of drugs, bullying, fighting, etc. My sister had to transfer her to a Catholic school. She excelled. She joined a volleyball team (the public school didn't have sports teams). When she graduated 8th grade, their local public highschool was even worse. She is now a freshie at a girl's Catholic highschool. Her grades are great. They wear uniforms, so there's no fashion competition. But dang is it expensive! Which really is so wrong, imo.
It's no secret in Chicago that the unions are very corrupt/liberal/criminal. The union bosses pilfer and some, not enough, have gone to prison. I wish all schools were privatized. imo...Politics do not belong in the school systems.
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I agree, Laura. Our town has three public elementary schools. One of the schools has a uniform policy. Luckily, that's the one my GD attended. It was absolutely wonderful. No drama about what to wear to school and no competition about clothing once they got to school. They had one non-uniform day a month and the teachers all dreaded that day - they said the incidences of misbehavior increased dramatically on those days. And the uniforms were much less expensive than buying regular school clothing. I thought it was a win-win situation.
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The issue of school uniforms has come up at my grandchildren's public school and my daughter thinks it's a great idea, for the same reasons Alpal stated.
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Why do you have to pay to send your children to a Catholic School. Can you not direct your taxes to that school board? That's how its done in Ontario. Edited to add, our Catholic schools teachers are unionised.
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This is my 34th year teaching English - 8 years in jr. high, the rest in high school. I have taught the last 20 years in a Title 1 school. My daughter teaches Kindergarten in a Title 1 school. My SIL teaches in a charter school.
A few of my opinions regarding the comparison of Catholic schools and public schools: First, I agree with the Fox article's point that parents who directly pay for their children's education (and take the time to choose a school) take greater responsibility for that education (and have higher expectations for their children, both in terms of academics and behavior.) I won't bore you with anecdotal support for this although I unfortunately have many, many stories of children who seldom see their parents, parents who have literally yelled at me for bothering them with a phone call, parents who are completely clueless as to their children's grades, etc. Second, Catholic schools have far fewer special education students. "Inclusion" is the law today, and many special ed. students are, in my opinion, placed in classes where the academic expectations are simply beyond their intellectual capabilities. Again - I won't support this with examples from my own experience, but I perform a balancing act every day trying to engage and challenge every student.
37 high school students - that's my highest class load this year.
I won't even go into the horror stories of my daughter's first year and a half of teaching. The stories she tells me of these 4 - 5 year olds would literally break your heart.
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Blue, I don't know about other states but in Alabama your taxes go to the state and are disbursed to public schools. Private school is pretty much "out of pocket", and the cost to parents is not even tax deductable.
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There were vouchers given to students in the D.C. schools to go to private schools. When Obama became president, those vouchers were taken away. Why? I don't know. Anyway, the kids who went to the private schools were doing very well.
The unions do not want vouchers given out nor do they want Charter schools. Why? Because the public schools lose funding from the taxpapers.
Unions have a big influence on many of our public schools. And, by being a member of the union (and you don't have no choice as far as I know) you pay membership fees. What do these membership fees go towards besides electing democrat candidates?
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Erica 31 wrote-"How many of you could keep your job if you failed this miserably? Not counting you Lew. " What the heck is that if not a personal attack? Feeling outraged for you, Lewing....
Mary
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I'm curious...why do teachers get tenure?
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ShirleyHughes wrote: "Yes, my SIL teaches in a Title 1 school. It's pathetic. And, no, he's not a member of a union...no union dues. His pay is not good."
Do you see the irony here, Shirley? Unions negotiate working conditions and salaries. Teachers unions are not just about pay, although they do help with that. The union I belonged to was also about providing the tools for excellence in the classroom. We wanted students to be successful. Why else would a person go into teaching?
PS I don't know what a Title 1 school is - our schools are equally funded throughout the province.
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It looks like healthcare is not the only thing that should be overhauled Lassie.
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Title 1 funding is based on how many children in a school qualify for free/reduced lunch. If a school has over a certain percentage of students on free/reduced lunch, they are a Title 1 school, and eligible for the federal funding that comes with that designation. I'm sure some here would say that people who can't afford to feed their children shouldn't have them, welfare state, blah, blah, blah...
Personally, I feel it's not the kids' faults for their parents' poor choices and they should not be penalized.
Mary
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Laura: Arizona teachers no longer are tenured. Shirley: Teachers do have a choice whether or not to join a union; actually, they may choose to join the American Federation of Teachers, the National Education Association, or neither.
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Blue, you are not going to like this...
Your question about parents directing their tax dollars to the school of their choice (private schools, or even "Catholic" schools, rather than public schools) has been hotly debated for decades here in the U.S. Here, it's often called a "voucher" program, since it would involve the government issuing vouchers to families so the money could be used for private school tuition instead of support of the local public schools.
Ironically, "voucher" programs here in the U.S. are most often supported by Republican politicians (see http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=536771 for instance). I'm going to generalize here, but Republican politicians are more likely to criticize public schools as being inadequate; more likely to favor allowing parents to choose where to send their kids to school; and more willing to allow tax dollars to go to schools sponsored by religious organizations or churches.
That last item has been a real stickler, because sending tax dollars to church-based schools is seen as a possible violation of the "Separation" clause of the First Amendment. But even the idea of using tax dollars to pay private school tuition has been opposed by major social and political groups, including unions. (The NEA and AFT often line up against school voucher programs; e.g.: http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolchoicefaqs/f/vouchers.htm) Opponents to private school voucher programs argue that students need the diversity they experience in public schools (private schools are more likely to be homogeneous). They also argue that diverting tax dollars from public schools to private schools will make the public schools even worse, and could eventually destroy the public school system.
I don't have a dog in this fight (no kids), although I desperately wish there was a solution to the sorry condition of our K through 12 public education system here. I've paid taxes all my adult life to support schools attended by other people's children. That's okay; I understand the social benefit of free public education. But, dang it... I wish we could do better.
Kadeeb mentioned state taxes as being the main support for public schools here in Alabama. A recurring problem here is that taxes at the state level are "earmarked" -- each particular type of tax is designated for a specific use. So, if state sales tax revenue goes down, there is less state money for education funding (or something like that). But, a percentage of school funding also comes from local tax revenue, such as city and county sales tax and county property tax. That amount isn't as high here as it is in other states, and it's highly variable.
The answer to your question is that some people have tried to establish private school voucher programs; and they do exist in a few states ... but the support is mostly from the Republican Party and there is plenty of strong (and successful) opposition.
otter
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I could see that Otter. I should look up the history here as I do know that at one time the Catholic High Schools were not funded either. Before my having children of high school age.
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Otter - the voucher system is significantly different from our Ontario system. We have two provincially funded education systems - the separate or Catholic schools, and the public schools (there is a debate about whether that is a good idea, but it is here for historical reasons). Both are pretty much open to everyone. All taxpayers have to choose one system or another for directing their taxes. Nevertheless, in most cases, students can go to either system. Both follow the same curriculum with the added mix of religion in the separate schools. My younger son went to the separate system for his last two years. His education there was neither better nor worse although he did get exposed to religion and had to wear a uniform.
Voucher systems are intended to reduce funds to public schools and then provide fodder to complain about them.
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suemed - Why did AZ stop tenure? I'm trying to understand the justification/purpose of it.
lassie - imo...You simply cannot compare Canadian unions to American unions.
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I'm with you, otter. No complaints about my taxes going to public education, even though I have no kids. Or even private education, as far as that goes. I think parents should have some say in where their children are educated. I think the public schools here are hurting badly, but not yet broken. And I don't have a clue as to what would help make them better, except it irritates me to see the 6 figure salaries made by superintendents, etc., while they lay off teachers. I think they need more teachers, and they need to be better paid.
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Shirley: The Washington D.C. vouchers were not taken away from the students already receiving them: "students currently getting the scholarships will continue to get them until they graduate. There would be no new scholarships awarded."
(dateline Jan. 2011 - myfoxdc.com)
Laura: The AZ Legislature did away with tenure in 2009. Apparently, this is an issue decided by the states. School districts now must prioritize their own criteria for retaining teachers.
Sue (who is going to bed now so I can face high school kids with WAY more energy than I!)
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I beleive that private schools produce a better education, in many instances, because of parents involvement. Parents involve themselves beginning with selection of the school and closely following the progress of their kid and being a part of the school system--volunteering, PTA, helping teachers and holding their kids responsible for not only learning but decorum.
Now whether this is because they pay more, or just because they are a concentrated group of like minded folks is to be deteremined. Public schools cannot pick and choose kids OR parents, so they get the whole population, good and bad parents. We only had public and a teeny Christian school here when my kids were being educated. We found that most of the kids whose parents were the ones who were involved in the schools had the kids who did better and went to college. Unfortunately, lots of smart kids were not able to go to college, not only because of their family's incomes, but because of the school counselors being too lazy to help them explore scholarship options. All and I mean all, kids were referred to the local vocational, tech school for furthering their educations. I was so disappointed in them. I made it a point to invite my kids friends on college exploring trips that I took each or mine on. At least the colleges were interested in discussing scholarships and loans with those kids.
Like nurses, one must be truly chosen to the profession to perform it well. And like any position, there are good, bad and better professionals in all groups. But both these groups are underpaid, overworked and under the thumb of politics. Lots of jobs are underpaid, etc, but these seem to be more under politics than others.
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