Chemo and Breast Cancer

rosemary-b

Wow. 

bluedahlia

Fascinating!

LindaKR

I met a lady recently that was diagnosed a 4 or 5 years ago with stage 0 triple positive breast cancer, very small tumor, she had a lumpectomy and radiation, now she has mets to the bone and more, she's under 50 and has a 14 year old son.  She wishes that they had offered her chemo the first time around, then she might be cancer free, then she might not have to stay on one form or another of chemo or targeted therapy for the rest of her life. 

 My chance of living 5 years without chemo and radiation were not good.  And yes, I do have residual side effects from my treatments, to the point of disability, but I'm planning on being around to spend time with my husband in retirement, see my grandchildren grow up and get married, see my 18 year old marry and have children, see great grandchildren - and I believe that the side effects I have to suffer are worth it.

Wabbit

Thank you Linda for bringing it back to what it is really all about. 

rosemary-b

I also believe that the side effects I sufered from chemo were worth it. I wanted to do everything that has been proven to increase the chances of my living cancer-free for a long time. I  have no regrets about the treatment I chose. It does make me upset when people slam chemo who have not had it.

sweetbean

You know, I am one of those who did all the conventional treatment, am currently doing Herceptin and Tamoxifen, but am supplementing with whatever CAM treatments I can afford.   I find posts like this super annoying.  Not even certain why it's so annoying to me, but it is.  I guess it's the tone - so condescending.  

For me, my favorite threads are princess123's and that'slife's - they both have threads on Alternatives for Early Stage and Stage IV. Those threads are full of information, frequented by all types of women who chose different treatments, and the conversation is always respectful.  

 For what it's worth, I did the chemo and I don't regret it.  I believe my CAM treatments and my diet and lifestyle helped me immensely with side effects.  My hair is growing back and my period even came back.  I'm in great shape and have amazing energy.  So I am big fan of alternatives, but I also know that the chemo helped me.  No doubt.   

I guess what bugs me is the idea that chemo has no merit.  I feel the same way when people insist that changing their diet has no merit.  This is a big disease we are facing and I believe in hitting it from every angle.  Coming on here just to bash a specific treatment helps exactly noone.   

Anonymous

People who use alternative treatments do so because they don't believe that conventional treatments are healthy or effective for them. Or perhaps they have been under conventional therapy and those treatments are no longer effective. There are women here who are adamantly opposed to putting toxins into their bodies and believe such therapies are dangerous and post studies and research that support their opinions. Why women feel the need to come into a thread such as this to criticize and mock them is beyond me. The very first post in this topic was insulting and mocking to the original poster. Than a slew of the usual suspects show up to criticize the poster and her article for no reason other than to start trouble. It's pretty obvious because it's the same women who have caused trouble in the alternative threads for the past few months. It wasn't enough to have the forums split so that there is a Complementary forum and an Alternative forum ONLY for discussion about alternatives

LindaKR

So I just read the article that Leia posted.  That is a very limited study, and as such carries little to no weight in my opinion.  We already know that chemo can cause some cognitive issues, but this study so small with so much room for error that it's not even worth spending the time on.  There are so many things that could effect the test - not the least of which is that some women, particularly if they have been diagnosed with more locally advanced cancer, and undergone the treatments suffer from PTSD, which also can effect the way your brain works. I wish that the news media would stop with all the scare tactics and sensationalizing in dealing with cancers, some scientist does a limited, or sometimes even a large study, and the news media over dramatizes, lists it as fact, tells you that you need to do .....  and you won't get cancer.  I don't even read the information in the regular news anymore, I go to the sources before I make my decisions. 

208sandy

Susieq - it certainly is!

Anonymous

Moderators, in your deletions you missed the very first post of Diggers that was posted for the sole reason of mocking and insulting the original poster to this topic. I'm sure that was an oversight, wasn't it?

suzieq60

Katy - the trouble is the discussion was about chemo not alternatives

Anonymous

Thank you Moderators.

sweetbean

Katydee, I read a study that involved a bunch of people who were blindfolded then told that their finger would be touched to a burning hot plate.  Instead, their finger was touched to an ice cube.  The subjects all developed burns as if they had touched a hot plate.  So when I decided to do chemo, I refused to think of it as toxic or poison and wouldn't let anyone else refer to it as such, either.  I did a ton of visualization, which I continue to this day.  Your mind is a powerful tool, but it swings both ways.  If you convince yourself that the chemo is toxic and that you will have irreversible damage, then you greatly increase your chances of that being so.

Leia's posts have a very combative tone and it gets people riled up, especially since she is very critical of others' choices, while demanding that hers be respected.  Not to mention that she smokes, which makes her criticism of others' choices even more mystifying.

Hindsfeet

http://www.ehow.com/video_4872385_long_term-side-effects-chemotherapy.html (side effects of chemo) Whatever treatment you choose you need to be aware of all side effects before taking it or doing anything...alternative and conventional.

........................................................................................................................................

To those who feel that those of us who decide against chemo know nothing because we never took it ....please take into consideration that we've had dear ones who were given chemo at dx to death. We watched them suffer through the treatment and most that I'v at least knew died from the treatment. I saw them waste away. There was no quality of life from dx to death...or dignity. After seeing what friends and family suffered, I knew that I would never go out the way they did.

I've known a few earlier stage, and younger stage friends with cancer make it though chemo. Sadly, most whom I've known after having cancer, chemo treatments all later were dx again with cancer, but the next time they didn't make it.

So...yes we know. We suffered as well, seeing those whom we love suffer. We watched them slowly waste away. We hurt. We too lost. The suffering of loved ones from chemo affected us as well.

Now...I'm personally face with the choice not to do the recommended chemo. Knowing my body, I know the risk for severe side effects are high and I can't take that kind of risk. I'll try something that won't be as harsh on my body and hopefully less side effects.

With all that said...I am not at war or in a fight with those who find chemo helpful. It is a personal choice. We must do our homework and feel comfortable about the treatment we take for cancer. For those of us who choose alternative, we just want the freedom to talk about our points of view, alternative treatments, or what is working for us.

Leia

I thank everyone for their responses. It is always good to have a healthy diaologue. About issues that are literally life and death, for all of us. 

And that is why I posted this link about chemo and breast cancer from naturalnews.com. Because sure, we all want to be healed from the breast cancer; but at what cost?

For some of you with way more agressive breast cancers than I had, maybe chemo is worth it. But for others, I would say most, it might not be worth it. Sure, kill all possibility of breast cancer, but then other problems are created. The unintended consequences. 

Look at thalidomide. A drug recommended to women, until it was proven to cause birth defects. Then, all of a sudden, it was "off the table."

This is just one, small example, but it makes me not trust doctors. They just recite the "accepted treatment" at the time. Then, new results come out, and then, "Oh, that was wrong. Sorry."

But the patient, you and me, are the ones suffering. From their, the doctors, prior, bogus "treatments."

And I believe that chemo falls under this umbrella. To me, chemo is like a nuclear bomb for an ant infestation.

There are always, "studies," but I just view what I see around me; which is that most people that I have known that have gotten chemo, have died. Or have had a significant reduction in their quality of life. While my sister, who had Stage 3 Ovarian Cancer, January, 2008, she refused chemo, went on Budwig full time, she is alive and thriving. This woman in my town, she had Stage 2 Ovarian cancer, had chemo and was dead within one year. And she was written up in my local newspaper, fundraising for more $$$$ for Chemo for Ovarian patients, to her death. Which I just found ... incredibly sad. 

Some have said, above, why am I critical of chemo, in this Alternative thread. Well, because chemo goes against all alternative treatements; it is the antithesis of them

Again, as others have said, for you pro-chemo people go to the threads on this board where chemo is supported. There are plenty of them.  

I just know, for myself, that I will NEVER do chemo. Just like I walked out, on the Whole Breast Radiation.  

It is just wrong, for me.

And to repeat, In January, 2009, I had a breast MRI that said that I had BIRAD 5 cancer in my X-cancer breast. As you all know, BIRAD 5 is almost certain cancer. Then, I had a stereotactic biopsy, and it was BIRAD 1; no cancer. 

The docs were in a tizzy.  I MUST have cancer! Then, they wanted to do an MRI biopsy. 

That is when I truly walked away, from this Medical Industrial Complex; they don't even believe their own tests. I refused to have that MRI biopsy. Then, I went on the FOCC and have been feeling great, ever since.  A year later, had a negative mammo, last summer, a negative thermogram. 

I'm in charge of my health.  

1Athena1

Leia, I personally am not a fan of chemo for early stage breast cancer (I have a different opinion with reservations for metastatic) but I have trouble understanding your emphasis on chemo's toxicity and on your allegedly superior treatment choices when you mention that you smoke cigarettes. Who cares what food you put into your system when you stack it with carcinogens that far surpass any toxic effect of chemo if measured in loss of life and health? Your level of apparent certainty about what works for a disease with no known cure is bewildering.  

LindaKR

evebarry - We've had many friends and family die from cancer and some from the treatments, but I'd like to say a couple of things here.  Cancer treatments have changed greatly over even the last 10 years, they've learned to manage the side effects better, not that you won't have them, or that they may not last, but that they have a better grasp on them then they used to.  Also, I see that you have triple positive breast cancer HER2+ is very aggressive and they have targeted therapies (Herceptin) available to treat that, it works well (even better when combined with chemo) and it has few side effects - the biggy for herceptin is heart problems, but my MO kept a close watch on my heart functions and there was no problem, I have seen a few people on these boards that have had problems with that though.  I was also afraid of the chemo, especially after watching what my MIL and SIL went through, but I can truthfully say  that it wasn't near as bad as I expected, and though I have residual side effects they are manageable.  I can honestly say that I'm glad that I had it.  But everyone has to make the choice for themselves. 

suzieq60

I always swore I would never have chemo after watching my father's last few months on this earth ruined because of 'palliative' chemo. BUT - in an adjunctive setting it is a toally different ball game. My DH had bowel cancer mets to the lung and he is here, alive and well 5 years later after a second lot of chemo and surgery. I think it all really depends on the person's actual situation and whether the cancer is treatable. Anyone who is an HER2+ve early bc patient is really risking their life if they refuse adjunctive treatment. There is no test that will tell you if you have any stray cancer cells floating around, node negative or not - the risk is just too high in my opinion. It doesn't have to be in your lymph nodes to spread.

thats-life-

drinkers, smokers, gamblers, cupcake eaters, kfc addicts (and i know one) cocacola addicts, those who are dependant on sedatives, anti anxiety medication, anti depressants...are not allowed to discuss a healthy diet, and or have an opinion on treatment options? There are a number of stage IV members who smoke and drink, there are addictions everywhere in this world, like little old men in asia who smoke opium till they are 100.. and im sure earlier stage women here too...we are human beings, not perfect...are they not entitled to share their feelings? nor attempt change in their thinking or diet?...should we list our vices in our bio? I think it is very rude to harrass and try to discredit someone because of a vice or addiction. I just read today that drinking in adolescence greatly increases breast cancer risk...well ooops...i was a party girl,...but i am not about to crack it at the anti drinking threads..and shout out that its crap. Nor would i ever claim to be a pure organic body that lives on manna alone... i think discussion of treatment choices and /or diet is everybodies right! bloody h*ll, if one has to be vice free to enter the alt forum then there may need to be a new forum "almost perfect people who are considering change in their life'

rosemary-b

It troubles me when someone says that you can find studies that defend any position you want, so just look at the people around you.You can find people around you who died while having both conventional and alternative treatment.  Medicine is built on studies not anecdotes and testimonials. If you don;t believe in science or studies, fine but then why have any surgery?  Surgery is conventional treatment. Almost all of us choose a combination of conventional and alternetive treatment. It is really upsetting when a choice is slammed. We do have to do what we feel is right.

Ang7

I like what you write Rosemary...

1Athena1

drinkers, smokers, gamblers, cupcake eaters, kfc addicts (and i know one) cocacola addicts, those who are dependant on sedatives, anti anxiety medication, anti depressants...are not allowed to discuss a healthy diet, and or have an opinion on treatment options?

I never suggested any of that. But Leia in the past has implied that her smoking is not harmful to her health. Very different thing. We all have bad habits, and that's fine. So long as we distinguish between a bad habit, a healthy one and science and opinion. And anyone is allowed to discuss anything. There are no surefire answers on BC treatment, otherwise none of us would be having this discussion. I also agree that humility is the best approach until we have a known cure, so I am not going to marry any one approach, or presume that one side has all of the answers.

Conventional treatment protocols change all the time. Just since I was dx'd, testing for the CYP2D6 gene has been lionized, then debunked, and using Zometa for adjuvant treatment in premenopusal women has been recommended, then rejected. "Science" itself is a fungible thing in breast cancer because we still know too little and rely too much on maths or studies with serious design flaws. Conventional protocols are far from settled (and everyone needs to remember that), and the death rate should serve as a reminder of that if nothing else. Recommendations for chemo, too, have changed in some cases since early 2009. But I think one fact that has withstood the test of time is that chemo, which actually cures a few cancers even if it may be useless for others, is overall far less dangerous than smoking, although outcomes may vary in individual cases.

elmcity69

ooh, some fun for my Friday: more of the Chemo ScareMongering.

as many of the gals said -more eloquently and, I'll admit, maturely- enough already. ultimately, you sound as many here do: you rant on and on, trying to convince others, when probably, you are trying to convince YOURSELF.

I did one of the toughest chemos around. I'm here, 2 years later, feeling fine. It certainly wasn't a cake walk, but at the same time, it was EASIER mentally than floating in post-treatment life, keeping the anxiety at bay.

Just give it up, Leia, please. Your choices are yours alone, and good luck to you. You're embarrassing yourself with these constant narratives against conventional medicine.

Anonymous

Rosemary, one does not have to be genius to figure out that you post a lot of nonsense that is meant to detract information about alternative and integrative therapies from being posted.  I don't know what your agenda is.  It might be that you are trying to feel like your conventional treatments are justified, or that you are afraid of "mis-information" being spread, but either way, the way you behave here is unacceptable. 

You tried to bully the moderators by bumping a topic over and over, accusing some of us here of trying to make money off your cancer.  Since then, the complementary forum has been extremely quiet.  And, as a direct result of your uncalled for behavior,  many missed a great opportunity to really learn about alternative and integrative therapies that are now growing in popularity.  People like impositive, evebarry and Kaara now are seriously considering, or using, alternative therapies because of what they learned.  

Women who believe in alternative therapies need to know what their options  are, without people like you, who know nothing about alternative medicines, telling them that  chemo and Herceptin/Tamoxifen are the best "scientifically proven" options and just ignore the  possible  side effects (i.e  heart attacks, brain damage, depression, cancer etc)  and hope for the best because traditional medicine hasn't killed you,... yet .  

Again, this forum was created as a safe place to discuss alternative treatments. There are women who would never dream of poisoning their bodies with chemotherapy, so sometimes they'd like to express how and why they turned to alternative medicines with others who share similar views. 

I could understand that reading their stories  could make some of  you, who truly believe in conventional medicine upset.  But sometimes you have to respect other people's feelings and take the time to understand what events in their lives and/or health problems  led  them to alternatives medicine. If you are not willing to listen, please do us a favor and stick to the conventional medicine forums, where your well meaning advice will not offend.   If this becomes a regular problem, I think the moderators should step in because your actions are seen, by many here,  as borderline harassment!  

  

rosemary-b

Princess

I am sure you did not mean your post to be inflammatory. I am sad that you think what I post is nonsense and  don't particullarly like being called out by name. But do what you think you have to do.

Anonymous

Don't try to play the victim!  (lol) Do you really think I'm that stupid???? You owe the women here and BCO an apology

bluedahlia

I don't think Rosemary is playing the victim and in my opinion, your post was not only inflammatory but condescending. 

rosemary-b

Sorry. I'm not playing anything. This is life and death not a game.

thenewme

Whoa, Princess.  I think you may have mistaken Rosemary for me, since I'm the one who started a thread on affiliate market and other dishonest quackery games. 

I'm curious about exactly what information Rosemary posted here that  is nonsense.  I read her posts and thought they contained good, factual information.  In any case, though, who are you to tell anyone how and where to post?  Harrassment?  Seriously?  

Anonymous

And here they come....