Alternative Treatment

Kadia

Kaara, does this help address your question about dosages at all? It specifically says why tamoxifen dosages are not weight dependent, but also explains a bit about how the standard dosage was determined. Sorry, can't make link live: http://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/planning/ask_expert/2007_08/question_34.jsp

SelenaWolf

I have been reading - with great interest - a few (slightly) out-dated articles linking (not conclusively, but linking nonetheless) SSRI's (i.e., Paxil) with increased risk of breast cancer.  I took Paxil for years for anxiety-panic-obsessive-compulsive-disorder and Cyclothalmia (a step down from bi-polar disorder).  I don't regret taking the Paxil as I - honestly - believe that it kept me from slitting my wrists on a number of occasions (did I mention that I was a mess?), but - given my already high risk for breast cancer - I have to wonder.  I think I was on it for three years, before they stepped me down to Celexa, which I, voluntarily, "stepped down" and out-of-my-life last September.  So far, so good because I don't want to go back to needing it... not after what I've read.

Kaara

SelenaWolf:  Fortunately I've never taken anti depressants or anti anxiety medication, although I'm sure there were times when it could have helped me function better with the public speaking that I was so terrified of doing when I was in business.  Everything I've read lately has just reconfirmed my decision to abstain from those kind of meds unless I become severely depressed.  

Good for you that you have removed these addictive substances from your life.  That is not an easy task as I understand it.  Do everything to stay healthy through diet and supplementation.  Improper diet is responsible for a lot of our health issues...even mental ones.  Keep educating yourself about this. 

Kaara

Kadia:  Thanks for the link.

Anonymous

Good to know that medical perspective on rads vs hormone therapy, esp since I was told i could not do rads due to location at nipple.

gentianviolet

Kaara - I have been reading this thread for awhile and following your decision to use thermography.  Can you tell me what the results were?  And how will you present this to your onc? 

Kadia

Selena, I'm right there with you on the Paxil. I believe it has saved my life, but I also hate having to take it. I will probably transition to another SSRI when I start tamoxifen. Ive had so many episodes of anxiety/depression that I know I will have to stay on a antidepressant (the risk of a relapse is pretty much near 100% for me without it) for the foreseeable future. For me it's about weighing the known health risks of anxiety and depression versus the less clear risks of being on the SSRI. I'm envious that youve been able to transition off of them--that's great!

Kaara

Essa:  Keep in mind that this study was for women who are like myself...over 70 and hormone receptor positive only.  You are much younger and might fall into a different category for treatment.

gentianviolet:  I should get the results of the therm this week when I go to my ND, so will be sure and report what I have found out.  I told both my onc and BS about it, and they supported my decision as long as I didn't use thermography to replace mammograms.  To them, I'm doing it for peace of mind, nothing more.  My BS isn't convinced that suspicious areas show up that much earlier.  I hope I never have to prove that to him. 

dogsandjogs

No, Deprol is not used anymore. I guess something better and less habit-forming was found. I was relieve to finally get off it. It was controlling my life to such a great extent.

SelenaWolf

Kadia... there was a time when I was convinced - and my doctor with me - that I would never be able to ditch the heavy anti-depressent meds.  In addition to Paxil, I had lorazepam for panic attacks and clonazepam to help me sleep.  Some days were so bad that I had to double-up on everything to just function.  Well... function as much as you can when you're that heavily medicated.  However, I've been "stepping down" for about 4 years now and, finally, last September "stepped out".  Hopefully for good.  We'll see what happens, but I have my fingers crossed that I can do this... unmedicated.

dogsandjogs

Best of luck Selena!  I feel if I did it, anyone can.  Do you exercise?  That really gets those endorphins going.  My whole outlook on life changed when I began running in 1982--

Kaara

Selena:  That's wonderful....you can do it!

12345678

Has anyone heard of the studies that have shown that Taxol doesn't work on ER+ breast cancers?

dunesleeper

Selena, can you tell me how it was getting off the Celexa. I have been taking Paxil for years, and I have so far been unable to get off of it. I get severe SSRI withdraw. If the Celexa isn't as bad, maybe my doc could switch me and then in a few months I could get off the Celexa. I heard the same report about Paxil being linked to breast cancer. Also hypothyroid. Also sleep meds. All of which I have. However, I am working with a natural doctor now and will be working with a number of them, so they may be able to get me off this stuff.

Anonymous

Kathy, I've read that also here at BCO.  Unless and until I see studies, I'll continue to think it's a only a myth which should not be propagated.  I even read "heard" that chemo doesn't work on grade 1 tumours....

Kadia

dunesleeper, Paxil weaning sometimes needs to be done very VERY slowly, titrating down over several months. I've done it a couple of times, to try other medications. Someone on another thread mentioned that Celexa or Prozac can be used as a "bridge" medication to complete the taper, because of the shorter half-life. Good luck!

12345678

Looks like I can't paste any links, so here's one to look up at:

msnbc.msn  

Click on Health, then Cancer.  Type Taxol into Search.

Then click on article titled:  Chemo Drug Fails Most Breast Cancer Patients 

sweetbean

Wow. Amazing.  I had a great response to Taxol, but I am triple positive and it said that the Her2 positive ladies had a better response with it.  

luv_gardening

 Chemotherapy (CT) versus tamoxifen (T) versus chemoterapy plus tamoxifen (CTT) in patients with node-positive (N+), estrogen receptor-positive (ER+) breast cancer (bca): Very late results of an Italian multicentric trial.

Meeting: 2010 ASCO Annual Meeting

Citation: J Clin Oncol 28:7s, 2010 (suppl; abstr 575)

Conclusions: T appears to achieve comparable RFS but significantly better S than CT in ER+, N+ pts, irrespective of their age or menopausal status. The addition of CT to T improves the results in a marginal way mainly at local level, but no benefit on overall and bca specific S has emerged so far. Results of subgroup analysis will be presented." 

T=Tamoxifen  RFS=Recurrence free survival  S=Survival  CT=Chemotherapy

luv_gardening

Effectiveness of CT in hormonal positive BC.

From Adjuvant Online:

General Comment

There is an emerging picture that ER status and perhaps the degree of estrogen receptor (ER) expression correlates with the chemosensitivity of tumors. This association, when it is true, is probably indirect, in that is unlikely to be the estrogen receptor protein that is playing a role, but rather the other features that correlate with ER status.

As outlined below there appears to be an real and intriguing association between ER expression and chemotherapy responsiveness. The St. Gallen's guidelines (see "St. Gallen 2005" ) now specifically groups patients into 3 groups of endocrine responsiveness, at least in part because of evidence that these groups may differ in chemotherapy responsiveness as well. Other guidelines have not yet adopted such an approach, however. At this time in terms of practical application in Adjuvant!, the evidence has not yet crossed the threshold to be used to used to modify estimates of chemotherapy effectiveness for all adjuvant chemotherapy regimens.

There are two major questions that still need to be better addressed. First is the problem that at this time we are mostly using semi quantitative immunohistochemical methods for measuring ER. This fact together with the fact that there are various IHC methodologies in use, means that we do not have a well standardized method for assessing the degree of ER positivity, and we therefore generally dichotomize ER status as either positive of negative, when there are growing indications that the degree of ER positivity is important. A second problem is that if the ER status (or degree of positivity) is predictive of the value of chemotherapy, it is not yet clear if this is true only for some regimens or is generally true for all chemotherapy types.

AMRM

there are way too many abbreviations being used here for someone new to cancer (as i am) to follow.

i too would love to use alternative measures but cannot understand half of what is said here due to all of these abbreviations. 

sorry but you all are just confusing me more & more with every post i read.

can someone please post a simple easy to read list of the top natural alternative measures being used and or recommended?

AMRM

thank you

luv_gardening

AMRM, I won't post the other studies then showing low grade tumours are not as responsive to chemotherapy as they may confuse you more. That fact is stated in many chemotherapy studies. It helps people decide whether to have chemotherapy or rely more on other treatments such as alternatives, depending on the type of cancer.

My medical oncologists failed to tell me this information when I was trying to decide on whether to have the chemo they were recommending.  It seems the chemo (including taxol) they wanted to give me was probably barely effective. 

The studies above show that estrogen positive breast cancers don't respond as well to chemotherapy as estrogen negative.  I put references to all the abbreviations except ER (Estrogen receptor status).

luv_gardening

AMRM, there are no lists of alternative treatments.  Alternatives aren't proven or they'd be used by doctors so most people use them as a back up after having standard treatment, or at least the surgery.  Without full clinical trials we can't know what if any alternative treatments work or what side effects they might cause.  Many alternatives are based on tradition or preliminary studies that are inconclusive, but considering standard medicine can't cure cancer if it spreads, that is good reason to try anything that seems relatively safe rather than sit back and do nothing after the initial treatment.

I remember that feeling of being overwhelmed.  It will start to settle down with time.  Having to learn all about the diagnosis, treatments and at the same time deal with the shock, treatments and people's responses is something we've all been through.  Then the main objective is to get as fit and healthy as we can to try to avoid any recurrence.  I do hope you're coping with it all.

Heidihill

I am (or was?) 100% ER positive and had a complete response to chemo (taxotere and A/C cocktail). On the other hand my cancer cells were dividing rapidly, growing palpably larger, which made them a good target for chemo. As noted in the post "The Complexity of Cancer" in another Forum, one biopsy, however, does not tell the whole story. It's possible that treating cancer is more of a crapshoot than cancer itself. The best approach would logically be a multimodal approach so you can cover as many bases as might need to be covered.

luv_gardening

Well said Heidi.

Kaara

AMRM:  Sorry you are confused...I know it is difficult to understand the abbreviations used on the site but there is a breakdown of all the abbreviations listed and what they mean.  It would be good if you could find and print that.  It is what I did.

About alternate treatments...Joy is correct....there is no "list"....there are many out there and none are proven, so it's pick and choose what works best for your type of bc.  I wouldn't consider any alternative treatment without consulting with a Naturopath or Holistic doctor.

What you can do with little or no confusion is make diet and lifestyle changes that fight cancer and prevent recurrence.  You can google anti cancer diet and will get the best protocol to follow.  My diet consists of eating whole foods as much as possible with no white flour, sugar, pasta, and few grains.  I stick to fruits, veggies, and lean protein.  Cancer has difficulty finding energy to grow in a diet that lacks sugar, and further, if you keep your body in an alkaline state, the cancer cells can't get enough energy to survive.  It's not a difficult diet once you become accustomed to eating this way.  Add some daily exercise, stay away from alcohol, get lots of rest, and take supplements as recommended by your holistic doctor.  Vitamin D-3 is a must...I take 5,000-8,000 IU's daily.  Levels should be between 70-90 to fight off cancer in the body.  

Hope this helps. 

Anonymous

AMRM, don't worry, I was the same  but a very kind sister is keeping this list updated.  Hope it helps: http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/62/topic/735716?page=84#post_2930339  

When first diagnosed, the learning curve is very very steep - don't hesitate to ask questions ok ? 

Unfortunately, this thread is a battle ground, you will have much more luck with the Natural Girls thread (a huuuge one) Happy Reading 

http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/79/topic/730113?page=1 

SelenaWolf

dunesleeper:  My first "attempt" at weaning off Paxil nearly killed me.  I did everything the doctor told me to about "stepping" down, but I still got serotonin sickness; it was severe enough to be hospitalized for a week.  Then, the second time, I "crashed"; swung hard into a deep depressive state that my husband feared I wouldn't survive.  That's when I was switched to Celexa, which my doctor said was "...a kinder, gentler version of Paxil..."  I was less medicated on Celexa (which I liked; I still had emotional ups- and downs, but I felt human) and did not have the side effects (i.e., menopause-like symptoms, excessive thirst, weight gain, etc.) that I had on Paxil.  "Stepping down" from Celexa gave me a mild headache... nothing more.

I would put out there that much of western, modern medicine is based on "natural" treatments.  For example, the chemotherapy drug Adriamyin/Doxorubicin was created from a bacteria molecule in Italian soil samples.  Taxol was derived from Pacific yew tree bark.  Then there is good ol' willow bark (ASA), foxglove (digitalis), feverfew (tanacet), and St. John's Wort (hypericum).  Much of modern pharmacology is plant- or "natural" based and has the science to back it up.  However, the last decades of modern medicine have seen a rise in "lab-created", synthetic drugs- and compounds that are either used with- or added to pharmaceuticals derived from the Earth.  And the "additives" are what many people object to because we, often, don't know as much about them as we should.

I would, also, posit that just because something is "natural", doesn't mean it is safe.  There are some natural remedies that can kill or injure, if overused or misused.  Lily-of-the-valley, comes to mind; like foxglove, it can be used for the treatment of heart failure, but - unless you know what you are doing - it can be deadly.  Ditto with broom; it's a good remedy to regulate heart beats, but it is, also, an abortifacient.  Golden seal is a good digestive remedy, but its, also, a strong abortifacient.   Rue is used as a muscle-relaxant, but - like broom and golden seal - it is a strong abortifacient.  Comfrey is, often, used to promote healing for gastric/duodenal ulcers and hemorrhages, but - if misused - can cause the tissue to heal too quickly, thus promoting the formation of an deadly abscess.  

Alternative- or natural remedies are just as strong and can be just as effective as their pharmacological counterparts... without all the synthetic additives and colourants.  Just because years of observation, i.e., "tradition" and "folk medicine" have lead to their widespread use doesn't mean that they are any less valuable.  Or dangerous, for that matter.  An overdose of Ativan can kill you.  So can foxglove.

So... as you would with doctor-prescribed meds, research your alternative remedies thoroughly.  Talk to an medicinal herbalist or qualified naturopath if you are unsure.  Our Earth and Her Gifts are powerful and life-giving, but need to be treated with respect.

candygurl

AMRM,   It's true. You may want to check out the "Natural Girls" thread. I like reading it.  It has lots of information. From what I can see so far "vivre"and others there really know their stuff.   

Karra is absolutely right. Finding a reputable naturopathic oncologist is very important.  I like the fact that they treat people and not just the cancer. My experience so far has been great. There is a thread in the complementary medicine forum that speaks more about that. It's called "Naturopathic Oncologists".  It's important to detox and be on the right supplements and eat the foods that are right for your body and address any underlying medical conditions that may have contributed to your cancer. 

KathyS5, I wish you much success coming off of Paxil. If you are taking Tamoxifen, from what I've read, you should not be on that drug. They do not interact well.  

There is no shortage of alternative and integrative cancer treatment centers especially in the U.S that are helping many people to avoid chemo and restore their health. But you have to do your research to find the best ones that offer the services you need.

Recently, I read an article. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100312133712.htm At first I thought it was interesting. That is until I got to the point where it said, "Dr. Martin says his team found that a popular chemotherapy drug, taxol, actually causes cancer cell microtentacles to grow longer and allows tumor cells to reattach faster, which may have important treatment implications for breast cancer patients. Their studies are continuing. We think more research is needed into how chemotherapies that slow down cell division affect metastasis. The timing of giving these drugs can be particularly important. If you treat people with taxol before surgery to shrink the primary tumor, levels of circulating tumor cells go up 1,000 to 10,000 fold, potentially increasing metastasis," he adds...."  That's very frightening. I wonder how many people are passing away as a direct result of this.:)

Much of the pharmaceutical drugs are plant based. The problem is when man-made chemicals are added, the drug companies end up with crack-cocaine versions of these powerful herbal remedies, which the body was never designed to handle.  That's why prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death, yet people pop them like they are jelly beans.  I believe Tucker posted an article they other day about the connection between sleeping pills (hypnotics) and cancer. I bet a lot of members flushed their pills down the toilet after reading that and are counting sheep to fall asleep instead.

      

ETA :  You can look up the article " Hypnotics Linked With Increased Mortality, Cancer"

Elsevier Global Medical News. 2012 Feb 27, S Worcester