INSOMNIACS place to talk in the wee hours

Loveroflife

I can't see Mag smacking her babies.

Excellent news Ms. CHEVY!!! I am reminded not to take for granted the special people who God gives me.

Ms. Sas, no, not pulling your legs this time. Cashew trees can be found in the tropics. Few neighbors in VN had them

sas-schatzi

Oh not good,........ LMG, Mema, Loverly, Smarrty, Beatmom, Mags, and Jazzy............All with storms acomin........prayin here. That little nino

Rosie and LMG--called the lab--needs to be spun down within 1-2 hours, then kept refrigerated, good for a week. Quest is a reputable lab. Rosie, your liver was better. The color of the ascites was better. maybe Herceptin is helping.

If you said the volume was down, along with the LFT's, and color improved -----I'd say happy liver.

But you said in a past post that the ascites in your scenario was not from the liver. I accepted that. But maybe a portion is coming from your liver?

But no thought on why the ascites increased

Spookiesmom

Kath, did you take potassium too? Apparently this stuff can deplete you with the diuretic. The nurses can say more.

kathindc

No PCP never gave me potassium even after my complaint. Just a change in prescription. I have become so disillusioned with him that asking about potassium slipped my mind. I should have known better.

Loveroflife

Well crab(my way of saying chit ,for crap)!!!! Demyelination is not good. Hoping it's just post polio "scar". Isn't demyelination progressive dz ?? Fatty liver??? Lay off the Vodka. I have fatty liver too, the nonalcoholic one. Not sure how I acquired it.

sas-schatzi

Generally, Lasix is the only one specifically where Potassium is trouble. Drug of choice for those with CHF. Torseamide can deplete potassium , but does it far less than Lasix.

Spiralactone(Aldactone) is a potassium sparing diuretic. It's used usually in end stage renal disease when multiple diuretics are used. In Spookie's case she doesn't __________to Lasix and torsemide, so the doc is jumping to aldactone. But she doesn't want that one b/c of BC and estrogen concerns(didn't know it did that). Bumex is still in the bag of tricks.

Spookie, check out Bumex

luvmygoats

Spironolactone is an oddball treatment for hirsutism - layman's terms hairy faced women. Decreases testosterone.

Sassy - I would think that was good of the lab. I think there are only a certain # of tests that must be run in a time limit. Chemistries probably one of the more stable.

I think I've only encountered Bumex one or two times.

sas-schatzi

Kathy and Spookie, you're going to just love this AARP article. I did. It covered all the drug classes that can cause leg cramps. Then it gave all the drugs that fit in that particular class. Very useful. If I were working, I'd keep this as a handout.

http://www.aarp.org/health/drugs-supplements/info-01-2013/drugs-that-can-cause-leg-cramps.html

magdalene51

Me and Beatmon at my (and now her) favorite Mexican restaurant. Maria took our picture, and also owns the place and makes the best flan. It's about halfway between our houses so it looks like we'll be lunching together frequently there! We filled up, and she took meals home for tonight. I hope she enjoys those spinach and mushroom quesadillas as much as I did! When Maria takes a picture she says "Say queso!"

sas-schatzi

Lilgoats, the AARP article brought to mind some drugs I'd forgot about too. Like Zaroxlyn. Specific reason that was used when it was used, but I forget. Didn't know that about aldactone Sheesh. Better call my brother. He insisted on it b/c of my dad. Wouldn't listen that dad's ESRD was from noncompliance with antihypertesives and that ESRD was secondary.

sas-schatzi

Goats, Did have a memory jar. When I was taking care of My MARY(mom's first cousin). She had mild CHF. Her particular problem was lower extremity edema. Lasix was a problem, I forget why. I asked her pharmacist to recommend a diuretic. She recommended Bumex. Mary did fine with it. She did so well with it in her late 80's into her 90's, I wondered why it wasn't used more. Dunno why? Maybe Loverly knows?

sas-schatzi

Great Pic Mags and Beatmom. Hope it doesn't get too windy around you

Jazzygirl

Love the picture ladies!

magdalene51

Blame it on short term memory loss. I read something and thirty seconds later I've lost it. Forgot my weather update. Storms moved through this morning, torrential rain, wind, etc. But by the time we met it had stopped, and now it's clear and sunny here, and Beatmon is having a pedicure. Storms moved off east.

Spookiesmom

Nice pic!!!

I don't have leg cramps, but on another forum it was discussed and almonds were suggested. A yummier way to get magnesium. Plus whatever else they're noted for.

Or, tonic water. Has a small amount of quinine, my cardio suggested that years ago. Tastes MUCH better with gin.

sas-schatzi

Magnesium isn't associated with being a problem with the diuretics as sodium and potassium. Quinine was used decades ago, but was booted out. Forget why. I'll go look.

sas-schatzi

J Clin Pharmacol. 1995 Jun;35(6):588-93.

Is quinine effective and safe in leg cramps?

Mandal AK¹, Abernathy T, Nelluri SN, Stitzel V.

Author information

• ¹Department of Medicine, Wright State University, VA Medical Center, Dayton, OH 45428, USA.

Abstract

Muscle cramp is a recurrent and painful condition and a common complaint among elderly subjects and patients treated with hemodialysis. It is commonly nocturnal and can disturb a good night's sleep. No specific cause can be identified; therefore, therapy is mostly symptomatic. Quinine sulfate, an antimalarial drug, is widely used as an effective therapy for idiopathic leg cramps. Several double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies have questioned the effectiveness of quinine in leg cramps; whereas other studies have shown significantly more benefit with use of quinine in reducing the frequency and severity of cramps compared with placebo or vitamin E. The mechanism of this beneficial effect is obscure, however. Quinine appears to decrease the excitability of the motor end plate, thereby reducing the muscle contractility. Most patients consider quinine beneficial for their leg cramps, which is difficult to refute by scientific data. More important, cramp is a subjective symptom, therefore difficult to measure objectively. Consequently, scientific studies designed to prove or disprove the effectiveness of quinine can be subject to flaws. Further, a dosage of 200 to 300 mg of quinine every night has not been shown to cause significant side effects. Nevertheless, quinine should be used in a small dose and cautiously, especially in the elderly and patients with renal failure, and should be avoided in patients with liver disease

sas-schatzi

Quinine's controversial for sure. FDA came out with a warning that it shouldn't be used off label. Only indicated use is malaria. This page is too long for here. It has the FDA warning. Then a counterpoint from a physican that disagrees. This is from 2010

http://journals.lww.com/neurotodayonline/Fulltext/2010/09160/FDA_Warns_Against_Quinine_for_Muscle_Cramps___Some.2.aspx

This is from a Medscape article in 2012. Identifies the complications reported to the FDA. The doc in the above article wated the FDA to produce the cases of complaints so they could be evaluated as to severity. This article on Medscape does that.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771699

Spookiesmom

Way back when, cardio said it was OTC, but no more. That's why he said a small juice glass of tonic water. I guess the amount of quinine in the water is small anyway prolly 20+ years he said that.

luvmygoats

Sassy - Thank you for the chart. On 2 beta blockers (Timolol and Metoprolol). Some leg cramps that I blame always on Letrozole.

Storm update - tornado touchdown in N Ft Worth. Ripped part of roof off 3 story bank building. I was out with neighbors' GD talking goats. I think this is going to be a nasty evening. PTL DH gets home in about 15 minutes. 16 chasers out from MO to just south of me.

Lovely picture Mags and Beatmon. Yummers Mexican Food.

Be back later.

Pawprint

Hi all, I don't get on much. Apologize for that but think of you all and hope everyone is doing well.

I passed my 5 year cancer anniversary this year and finished taking Arimidex. My liver doc says we will be closely monitoring tumor in my liver to see if it grows now that Arimidex is over. This felt reassuring. Got news today, after 3 appeals with insurance company they will no longer cover my liver scans. Reason: I am no longer in active breast cancer treatment. Scans will only be approved if routine blood tests show any change in liver function. And liver function blood test can be ordered by regular primary doctor and not oncologist. Liver Doctor stated my blood tests always looked fine even with breast cancer and having liver tumor. It was with Petscans and MRI and CTs that doc could watch for changes in liver. So without scans, my liver doc can not see me. Looks like after 5 years of bc,we are in the hands of primary doc. Very frustrating. Had to vent.

sas-schatzi

This article from WebMD is about potassium and magnesium. It describes about taking potassium and magnesium supplements. It's better than standard drug handouts.

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/treatment-supplements

This article is okay. Not sure who Dr. Sinatra is, but I couldn't see anything in the article that was harmful. His approach is to obtain potassium and magnesium from diet. The foods high in magnesium are also in the list for good bowel working. We just looked at that the other day on the constipation thread. So, that's a plus. Actually, the high magnesium things he identifies are great foods. Many nutrients.

http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/heart-matters/drugs-surgery/cardio-drugs-review/274-diuretics

Chevyboy

I know when I took Tamoxifen, I had a lot of trouble with leg-cramps.... and someone told me about Magnesium.... I'm probably the only one in the world that broke out in a rash from Magnesium.... So anything new that you take, can cause stupid reactions in some people....

We are going to see that wily Theresa tomorrow.... How FUN that she is back from wherever she was! Yes, a bunch of you SAID that it could be that UTI !

I remember one time I went for a physical, and the Doc said I had one of those.... no symptoms.... How do you get them, and how would you know something was wrong? ONE time I KNEW I had SOMEthing wrong, because when I just went to pee, I almost flew straight up to the ceiling! Now THAT hurt! It's funny that some infection like that can throw things out of whack!

Janie was just here, working on one of those "books"... ! Their vacation to California, and she is arranging the pictures with some program, into a "book" online, and then they make it, and send it to you! Have any of you done this? WHAT A JOB!!! Been here 2 days, and still organizing the pictures she up-loaded from her phone, to put in this book! What patience!

The Dentist is making my lower "partial!" The "frame" really feels TIGHT! Took more impressions of my upper plate, then Tuesday he checks a fit with "wax" teeth?? in it, then the "real" partial will be finished..... I'll have teeth all over the place!

Okay little friends! Thanks for always being there! xoxo

sas-schatzi

Paws, I just mentioned your name to someone yesterday. She has iron infusions. Here's the link to her thread.

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/6/topics/836482?page=1#idx_2

Glad you are here. What kind of liver tumor? Did we know that? How's the iron? Obamacare sucks. How's your furbabies? Done with school? Feeling good, even with the trouble?

susan3

pawprint, sorry the ins co is poo poo. My switched to what I can have, but cause of that we won't see transition as soon as before. They don't do us any favors, and it will cost them more in the long run if they don't catch it early. Makes no sense.

I have nothing to add with all this nurse talk. I can talk about hair...lol

Have fun tomorrow Chevster:)

sas-schatzi

LMG, I didn't know that the beta blockers could cause cramps. The article really was nice. I'd post it in the med rom. I used to post drug families on the walls. Made it easier for the nurses. Especially newbies.

Pawprint

thank you Susan3...I'm with you, I have nothing to add with nurse talk, but I can't even talk hair!! )

sas-schatzi

Sheesh Paws What Insurance do you have? What's the maintenance lab protocol--(tests)? What kind of tumor?

Chevy have oodles of fun tomorrow? Give her big hugs from us all Have a nice day out

Jazzygirl

Pawprint- congrats on reaching your 5 years and being done with the AIs. But given you have something that needs to be watched, that is not good news you won't be able to have that tumor watched. I can see the scans not being done if that was not there, but seriously? Can you appeal the insurance?

I had lots of questions for the MO's office this year about the liver. They told me they used the liver enzymes to trigger any scans as it is usually the first thing that happens before they can feel anything. She did an interesting exam where they said the liver "drops" if there is a problem. She could not feel anything upon exam and my enzymes ended up being normal. Hard to know what to watch for around this?

If your PCP is your new go to person, I hope he or she will keep on top of the blood work with you. We are our own best advocates, and I push my concerns with my docs when I see them.

Okay to vent any time! Nice to see you here.

Rosevalley

Thanks Sass and Lvgoats- I didn't know what to make of lighter colored ascites fluid and more of it. Then increased liver labs a week before and back to normal a week after... WTH? My MO ran tumor markers so we can take a peekee poo and see what direction they are headed. The pain in my hips is a little bit better as long as I don't walk too much, but the over all gut issues feels worse. Hmmm The alkphos I would think is from rads and bone mets. I take Maxide (combo diuretic) and it works fine. I add lasix when I get poofy.

Susan hope this new med works for you. Pawprint I am confused. Are you a stage 1 or stage 4 patient? Did you have a liver lesion diagnosed as mets? I can't imagine insurance not monitoring that. How can they just drop it and call it good. Do tumor markers corespond to your scans? They are not expensive tests to run and if they work for you it might be a every 6 month option for peace of mind.

Sassy I hopewhat ails you is from post polio syndrome. Mags nice photo of you two and a yummy lunch. Chevy fabulous news about Theresa!

Be well.