Outraged by TSA

LtotheK

I realized if all of us clogged the gates with refusals, they'd have to change this system right quick.  It would be an interesting protest.  I am planning to request a patdown, and will record everything that happens.  I have a niggly bad feeling about the machines and radiation, and from now on, am vigilant about my exposure.

Susie123

Clogged gates will result in missed flights. I sure hope that doesn't happen tomorrow or alot of folks will have their Thanksgiving plans ruined.

Jelson

http://holt.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=651&Itemid=18

Congressman Rush Holt of NJ is a scientist and has much to say on the amount of radiation emitted by the equipment used by the TSA and he has been warning about this for awhile. Sadly, the Scanner Equipment lobbyists have been flinging money around DC for months. This is not about protecting us from terrorists, it is about making money! 

Julie E

Deirdre1

I'm grateful that not all experiences are bad ones but I'm wondering why other's should just tollerate it because Suzie123 you "understand the need" and had a good experience (as if we all don't feel the need for safety, but we expect better from our Country rather than turning their citizens into the criminals!)!  We are not living in a police state and if you don't understand what environment this kind of search is creating then you are naive and if we all just go along with it it won't be long before we are expected to give up much more rights than a search.  It is a violation and the "complaining" of citizens has already got the governement (TSA) looking at the procedures and deciding how they can change them.  One persons complaint is another's "right to free speech"..  It's dangerous and has the potential of pushing more people over into the area of PTSD.  This is just bad practice under the pretense of looking like the government is doing it's job of protecting it's citizens..  Just plain bad practice IMO.

Susie123

9/11.........I don't really think I'm the only one who "understands" the need sweet pea. You see, it's not just my personal opinion. I didn't create the TSA, but I'm thankful that when I step on a plane, in a huge tin can with a few hundred other people, that my family is a little safer because of the screening. As far as the TSA goes, it only stands to reason that perhaps the small percentage of problems are coming from that small percentage of employees who either are not trained well or have no business being there because they're not suited for the job. Airport security is not going away, that's a fact. We need to look for feasible ways to improve it and starting with weeding out the bad screeners is a good first step. Being treated with respect, and not like a sub human would have prevented most of the complaints that you see on the news.

Susie

ktym

For my part my complaints aren't because of a subset of poor employees.  I have objected all along to the reactionary theatrical procedures TSA puts in place.  I am not reassured nor do I think we are truly safer because of them. I'm not reacting to a handful of poor employees (although agree they should be removed) I'm reacting to the ridiculous TSA mind set and ridiculous set of procedures they've put in place that IMHO impringe upon our civil liberties and I am horrified that TSA was so arrogant they didn't forsee how offensive this would be to so many Americans.

Mandy1313

The thing to realize is that these scanners that detect medical devices and profile travelers with them for full searches are not limited to the U.S.  I was subjected to an incredible pat down following my unknowing experience in one such machine at Heathrow Airport in London, UK.  In fairness to the UK, they have planes coming in from many areas where there virtually is no security So while we can complain about this going on in the US, there is little we can do at non US airports.  I for one have simply decided to limit my flying as much as possible (but I will still have to fly sometimes).

LtotheK

SherriG, I'm sure there are studies, but you are on-point.  I lived through 9-11, and have seen first-hand the machinations of "security". I appreciate any moves towards improved security, but I don't think these measures have actually made us safer. 

My parents are here, and Dad just got a pen knife by mistake through security.  Bags, bodies--bottom line, too many people, not enough staff, too many flights to make any system really effective.

Fear mongering is an extremely potent weapon, I fear at times we are subject to it with the pharmas, too.

ktym

Sherri, I agree, I also think those instances point out that our best security is having alert citizens noticing and willing to jump on these terrorists

Enjoyful

Would we know if they'd stopped terrorists or plain old crazy people from boarding planes?

Scissors are allowed if the blades are less than 4" long.  Lighters are allowed.  Plastic knives are allowed.  Cream cheese is not.  Snow globes are not.

And for those who would say it's because of the 3 oz. liquid rule, remember that I can take multiple 3-oz containers on board and combine them all in a plastic bowl, in the lavatory wash basin, or in the 1-qt clear plastic bag itself.  Oh, and if that liquid is flammable, I can use the lighter or matches I carried on board.

Does this make sense to anybody??

Somebody needs to take a good, long look at what TSA does and move toward more risk-based procedures. 

Medigal

enjoyful:  It's not supposed to make sense!  It's just supposed to keep us stirred up so we won't know what the REAL terrorists are doing.  Unfortunately, "they" are not as mineless as the people who "pretend" they are protecting us!  

doingbetter

A couple of doctor friends, one being a radiologist, said there's no way they will go through either type of scanner.  And it seems like by making the pat down so uncomfortable, more and more people are saying they'd  rather go through the scanner - sounds to me like that's just what the govt. wants.  We are truly becoming dumber and dumber as a nation. The fact that so many people think this actually makes flying any safer is mind boggling.

Celtic_Spirit

I remember a few years ago around this time TSA relaxed the rules a little on what you could carry on board. The rules were going to go into effect on, say, Nov. 21. I was flying out of San Diego on Nov. 20 and forgot that I had a small pair of scissors in my cross-stitch bag. They were confiscated. However, had my flight been the very next day, they would have been legal. So they were "dangerous" one day but not the next. If I were a terrorist, I could have just waited a day.

otter

Looks like we're all bright-eyed and wide awake this morning!

enjoyful, I'll admit that I doubted your statement about TSA allowing scissors and lighters -- I thought those had been banned years ago -- so I looked it up.  Here's a handy list on the TSA website, showing what's banned and what's allowed in carry-on versus checked baggage:  http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm

It is sort of odd, isn't it?  Scissors with 3-1/2 inch blades, including both blunt-tipped and sharp-tipped scissors, are okay in your carry-on; but not a gel shoe insert.  I wonder what they would say if someone showed up wearing prescription orthotics that contained a gel?

Oh, and, according to that TSA list, wrenches, pliers, and screwdrivers are permitted as carry-on, provided they're not more than 7 inches long. Screwdrivers?  Are they serious???  They must mean the total length, not just the blade.  To be even-handed, TSA also allows passengers to carry on knitting needles and "items needed to pursue a Needlepoint project," except for certain types of thread-cutters which must go in checked baggage:  http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1252.shtm

Yet, as enjoyful pointed out, snowglobes are not allowed in carry-on luggage:  "Snow globes and like decorations regardless of size or amount of liquid inside, even with documentation" (see the previously cited TSA page).  A snowglobe as a weapon?  Who knew?  That opaque bottle labeled "cough syrup" is okay, though, even if it's over the 3.4-ounce limit, as long as you declare it separately.

One thing I didn't see mentioned on the TSA page was fingernail clippers.  They were banned for awhile, then okay for awhile ... I thought they were still permitted, assuming they were just the regular cosmetic kind.  Then I read a story about a military unit that was returning from Afghanistan on a military charter aircraft.  They had already gone through military security, a full baggage search, body scans, and U.S. customs, before leaving Afghanistan.  At their first stop in the U.S., everyone was forced to get off the plane and go through TSA security before the remainder of the soldiers (those for whom that stop was not home base) could re-board and continue their flight.

As one of the soldiers was emptying his pockets, the TSA screener spotted a Gerber multi-tool, which was immediately confiscated. Then the screener noticed that the guy also had a regular fingernail clipper, so he confiscated that, too. The soldier protested, asking why his fingernail clipper was considered a threat when he was also carrying an M4 carbine rifle (albeit unloaded).  (The soldiers were required to travel with their weapons, which included rifles, M9 pistols, and M-240B machine guns.)  But, the TSA screener was unrelenting -- the fingernail clipper was a prohibited item, so it had to be confiscated. The article relating that incident was from 11/18/2010; but I don't know when the incident occurred. I looked on snopes.com to see if the story was a hoax, and it wasn't listed.  I will acknowledge that some of you won't like the website the story is posted on:  http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/

Here's a really interesting article in today's on-line NY Times that contains commentaries from 5 "experts":  "Do Body Scanners Make Us Safer?" (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/11/22/do-body-scanners-make-us-safer).  Very good reading, especially if you'd like to hear a variety of opinions.  Be sure to click on each of the links to read the various opinions.

If you are interested in a well-written, well-documented criticism of the new screening methods, here's a fantastic article from today's on-line issue of Slate:  "Groping in the Dark – The government's secret plan to feel you up at airports" (http://www.slate.com/id/2275839/).  This article focuses on the near-secrecy with which the program was launched, and the TSA's continuing refusal to provide any details about what the "standard procedure" is (i.e., what their screeners are allowed to do, and what's supposed to be off-limits during a screening).

I need to go to the store and buy some stuff for Thanksgiving dinner...

otter

Medigal

I can understand about banning "snowglobes".  Do you realize the harm one could do if they got a stewardiss and threatened to bash her head in with it?  I'm looking at one I was given as a souvenir. That can be a weapon if you bang someone hard on the side of the head with it, IMO.  Just strange that they came up with it.  Like how many passengers just carry snowglobes in their purses or bags.

revkat

Does anyone know if the TSA has ever prevented someone with terroristic intent from getting on a plane? The incidents I know of since 9/11/2001 have all been with people on international flights (shoe bomber, underwear guy, the fluids plot from England). I am sure they would tell us that they can't tell us for security reasons, but surely it would leak out if they stopped someone with explosives strapped to their chest or packed in their pockets. All these things that "might" be used as weapons, has anyone ever been stopped who actually had the intent to use them as a weapon? 

CoolBreeze

For those of you who think this make us safer - you aren't paying attention.  In the first place, it won't catch the kind of mechanism that was on the most recent bomber.  In the second place,, it won't catch anything in a body cavity.  In the third place, it doesn't always catch things on a human. 

Adam Savage when through one of these, and it missed a 12 inch razer blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3yaqq9Jjb4 

This doesn't make you safer.  It makes you less safe.  It makes the government able to control you.

And, gizmodo has hundreds of pictures of nude people from those machines.  They are not being protected.  You can be shown nude, and are identifiable.  

 Does nobody have concern about our medical privacy rights?  We are called aside, merely because we have cancer and an implantable device.

otter

revkat, I don't know the answer.  The TSA has been getting more vocal about all the potential threats they've foiled.  TSA officials have hinted at some of them in news broadcasts and press articles this past week, I suppose to beef up public acceptance of their efforts.  The officials seldom offer any details but always suggest that, without their diligence, we'd all be dead.

The TSA has begun to boast about its achievements on its website.  Here, for instance, is a story they've posted about discovering a box cutter hidden in somebody's work boot.  Note that the discovery was made with an X-ray of the guy's carry-on items:  http://www.tsa.gov/who_we_are/workforce/workforce_stories/catch_092210.shtm

The main TSA web page now includes a "ticker" at the bottom of the screen showing a summary of their "finds" during the preceding week. Here's what it says right now:

+++++++quote begins+++++++++++

TSA Week at a Glance: 11/15/10 through 11/21/10
-- 2 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
-- 12 firearms found at checkpoints
-- 14 passengers were arrested after investigations of suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents

++++++++quote ends++++++++++++

The last time I flew, I forgot I'd stuck a half-empty, 10-ounce bottle of Dasani water into the outside pocket of my carry-on bag.  My hostess (our own EyesOTex, as a matter of fact) had handed me the water bottle as I walked out the door to begin the 2-hr drive to the airport.  I put it in the zipper pocket when I got to the airport, thinking I'd finish it as I waited in line to check my other bag.  But, fortunately, for the safety of others on board that plane, a sharp-eyed TSA agent saw the suspicious item on the screen as my bag passed through the X-ray device.  He called me back to identify the bag, and pointed out the contraband.  He was actually very nice -- he even reminded me, as he tossed my half-empty bottle into the trash bin, that I could purchase another bottle at the concession stand a few feet beyond the checkpoint.  Was my water bottle a "prohibited item"?  Yes.  Was it "artfully concealed" in my carry-on luggage?  I don't think so, but who knows how that phrase is defined by the TSA.

I truly have no problem with TSA arresting people who are trying to pass through the checkpoints with "fraudulent travel documents," or investigating and arresting people who display "suspicious behavior" (provided, of course, that the investigation leads to the discovery of a true threat, and not just a parking ticket or a full bladder). 

I also have no problem with TSA finding and taking away unauthorized firearms at the checkpoints.  (Let's remember that some pilots, and all federal air marshalls, are authorized to carry firearms onto the planes.)  There have been a few absent-minded firearms owners who honestly forgot to remove their locally permitted, concealed-carry handguns from bags or cases, before they left for the airport.  As fearful as some people are of all firearms, those absent-minded pistol-toters would have posed no threat to the plane or its passengers.  They just screwed up. But, until things change (which they won't, on this issue), it's best to leave that Glock at home in the gun safe before heading off for a flight.

Then there's the time 3 or 4 years ago when my dad tried to carry an old, German-made pocket knife through a TSA checkpoint.  Dad has Alzheimer's, but back then, before it got bad, we were able to arrange for my family to fly from their home to mine for a visit.  Dad's keepsake pocket knife was normally stashed in a jewelry case in the bedroom.  For some reason, he took it out of the case on the morning of the flight and was seen putting it in his pocket.  Mom assured him he would not need it on the trip (!); she managed to convince him to put it back in the case for safe-keeping.

Just before they walked out the door, he said he needed to go to the bathroom. Instead, and unbeknownst to my mom, he went back to the bedroom and retrieved the knife.... which was discovered an hour later, when he walked through the metal detector at the TSA checkpoint.  He pulled it out of his pocket immediately, and began telling the TSA agent (rather cheerfully, I was told) about how he'd taken it from a German P.O.W. in Belgium toward the end of the War.

Somehow, some way, my sister was able to explain the situation to the TSA agent, and convince him not only that my dad did not pose a threat (he could have been arrested for what he'd done), but that the knife had significant meaning to him.  The TSA agent located an airport attendant who helped my sister arrange for the knife to be held at Airport Security until their return flight.  She was able to collect the knife upon her return and stow it safely when she got to the house.

The lessons: 

1) All TSA agents are not bad people, nor do they all treat passengers as vermin at risk of being squashed if they get out of line. But, some are, and some do.  Whether they're on a power trip or under the illusion that belligerence will bring compliance, some agents treat paying airline customers the same way some prison guards deal with inmates.

2) The TSA has been on "damage control" this week.  Their image, which was never very good (it started with the shoe thing, I think), is in the gutter.  There are now enough passengers who do not respect the TSA as an agency or its employees as our "protectors", to have reached a critical mass.  The TSA is not quite as immune to public criticism as are, say, the FBI or CIA. Congress created the TSA, and Congress can rein them in or pull the plug.  So, the TSA really needs to convince the American public that its measures are both justified (not just by arm-waving and pointing to scorched underwear) and effective.  It's the data, people.  We need to see some evidence.

BTW -- Y'all know, of course, that toner cartridges are now banned from both carry-on and checked baggage ... even though last month's bombs that had been disguised as toner cartridges were loaded onto those planes as cargo. Anybody know if anything new is being done to secure airline cargo?

otter

CoolBreeze

Ladies,

I was just interviewed by a reporter for the Sacramento Bee.  He is interested in hearing from women with breast cancer who are upset at this and feel it's a violation.

He gave me persmission to post his name and number.

It's Bobby Calvan and his number is 916-321-1067.

He is on deadline as the story will be published tomorrow but if you see this today and want to add your voice to the outrage, call.

DATO

This morning I was listening to NPR on my way to work.  They were talking about the effects of Agent Orange on people 35+ years after its use in Vietnam.  They quoted the government telling the soldiers that "the stuff is so safe you could drink it".  After reading most of the links that have been supplied by you wonderful ladies, I have decided that these machines are not safe for me to use after having had radiation as part of my cancer treatment.  I don't think these machines are safe for anyone who flies more than once every few years.  Benjamin Franklin said it quite well in 1775, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

doingbetter

I won't be surprised if we start hearing about more foiled attempts just to keep people believing that all of this is necessary - "see? we told you so."  The bottom line is no one can honestly tell you these scanners are safe - and how about when they malfunction, which all electronics do at some point.  Even the non radiation one says "no known" risks.  Who knows what will come out in a few years by which time the damage will be done.  It's one thing to take the radiation risk with necessary medical procedures when you can hopefully trust your doctors to maintain the equipment properly and it's in their best interests to make sure things work properly.  Quite another to have the exposure forced on you for nothing other than show and profit.  And who is checking these machines out? The same government that won't let independent sources review the machines?  Presumably the doctors have quite a bit of incentive - financial and legal to make sure things are working okay.  And if there's a problem with the TSAs canners later, what's the recourse?

As humiliating as it is, if one has to fly, I'll still take my chances with the patdown.  But since neither option is desirable, and I have two kids to worry about also, we will be flying as little as possible.  And many of our friends have said the same.  Many of us used to take several trips a year.  I wonder if you start multiplying that over and over what it will do to the travel industry - not just air, but all the other things people spend on when traveling.

cary1

Susie, your family is only marginally safer by this form of "security theater." That brilliant term was coined by Bruce Schneier, who is an expert on these security issues and a frequent source for comment. He has been writing about this issue for years and years. For the current controversy, he has a lot of interesting links assembled here:

 http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/tsa_backscatter.html

 And for a quicker version of his views, see links in this post.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/me_on_airport_s_1.html

There is no indication the TSA has stopped any terrorist, no, though they have stopped people with weapons. Schneier is quite sure they would crow about it if they had. The manufacturers of the machine say they would have missed the underwear bomber, he says. Obviously neither the machine nor the pat down will pick up explosives in a body cavity. It also won't help against an inside job (no pun intended).

I will be flying next month and I don't have a problem with the pat down, just the machines. But I do have a problem with their doing the pat down in a punitive fashion to intimidate people into allowing the machine the next time. Lots of people are reporting that. That's disgusting.

Grazie47

"artfully concealed"  I think this means they found the water bottle.

"concealed" means- never found it - whatever "it" is!

The TSA failed to realize that everyone up to this point was compliant with their demands even tho most people knew it was just a show.  No big deal x-ray my carry on, walk through a metal detector, possible get pulled aside for a body wand, oh yeah and do it all barefoot.  Most people knew it was a joke, but oh well, just do it and move along.  But now the TSA ramped it up to scanners that offer no assurance of safety,  body checks that are far too personal.   Enough is enough.

Another thing that bothers me, the new and up close body check, they don't change their gloves unless asked.  So the guy in front of me is coming from his bed bug infested Hotel or a house full of flu infected people.  Now it's my turn and the bedbugs or flu are now passed onto me and I will carry them to where ever I end up at the end of the day.

The enhanced body checks are their as a threat - "Do the scanner or I will grab your balls".  Follow the money, they want these scanners everywhere.

DesignerMom

IF all these procedures resulted in us being safer, I would not have such strong objections.  I do not, for one minute, think they protect us.  As I was curious what my RO would think of the scanner's radiation exposure, I asked his opinion.  To say the least, he was blunt and outraged.  He pointed out that until these scanners are able to visualize body cavities, they are only inconveniencing the innocent citizens.  As we all know so well, terrorists have no problem blowing themselves up in the process of killling us.  My RO said that any of them could easily fill a condom with explosives and insert it up their butt (sorry, probably too much info).  On these scanners, it would look like normal feces.  What will the TSA's next strategy be?  Bend over and cough???  I just know the real terrorists are LOL watching us with this madness.

otter

I won't be traveling this week; but if any of you do go through an airport, be sure to tell us how your TSA screening went.

otter

++++++++

Thought for the day: "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" -- Samuel Adams (American statesman, political philosopher, and one of the Founding Fathers of the U.S.)

Colette37

I don't know if you have seen this or not, but as I said earlier I wouldn't put it past the TSA and Chertoff to promote the scanners to other areas of travel besides plane...Of course he is making money off of these scanners that he deems are 'safe'

They are pushing it to be in ALL public transportation.  The scanners that is.  They are taking baby steps and making it very difficult to have any civil rights and forth amendment left. 

We stand as one Americans...not "Republican" or "Democrat" but as USA citizens and say that this is enough!   No, Scanners, No "Enhanced Pat downs" ..ONLY with a person who can not answer simple questions about where they are going and what they are doing..thus raising questions which they may not answer honestly..THEN they would have probable cause.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-

grammajan627

Question: I have TEs - I'm sure I'd set off alarms - should I avoid the scanner? Will have to disrobe from the waist up to prove I'm not hiding weapons in my still (almost) flat chest? I'm not sure I can handle the humilation of a stranger looking at me - I've been through enough. NO ONE except my surgeon, my PS and the nurse who does my fills has seen this part of me since my BMX. I do carry my TE vendor card with me - is that enough?

LtotheK

Between DesignerMoms intelligent post, and someone here who intelligently pointed out the screening makers have been lobbying congress...it sure feels sinister and a typical capitalist scheme.  I'm feeling cynical about it today!

Enjoyful

Typical capitalist scheme....well said.

DesignerMom

I heard a news report that they are using different scanners (I believe radiowaves), that use NO radiation in Denmark.  They are more accurate and even detect concealed liquids.  Of course the TSA says there are NO other types of scanners.  This is a blatant lie.  There appear to be safer and more effective ones being used in Denmark.  And by the way, they do not reveal all your personal little bits and pieces.   I would love to get 60 Minutes to do an investigative report to follow the money.  Who lobbied who?  Who got this HUGE government contract for scanners etc... I love that the American people seem to be standing up for their rights.  We are NOT "sheeple" as my son says! 

otter-Love the Samuel Adams quote!  Ahhhh Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, where are you now that we need you????