Outraged by TSA

Medigal

ADK:  I don't think it is going to do any good to let the TSA know our concerns.  We need to follow Sherri's example and flood our Congressmen and Senators with our anger.  We don't vote for the TSA.  Get to the people who need our votes!  

Good going Sherri and you are just out of the hospital!  Now THAT is taking action!

SoCalLisa

the guy who started all the don't touch my junk

lives here and was interviewed this morning...he seems like

a very nice, articulate young man who has nothing personal to benefit

by this whole thing..I heard the people who make the new scanners

are the only ones to benefit from them..follow the money...

otter

Great article, kmmd.  I do remember when flying was fun, from the moment we entered the terminal to the instant we could first spot our suitcases coming around the carousel at the destination. 

otter

CoolBreeze

Here is a site:  flywithdignity.org.

It's intrusive for everybody, but remember, those of us who had mastectomies and who use prosthesis or have implants are singled out.  We always get the pat-down.  If the pink ribbon can turn into such a force, then we surely have the numbers to stem this tide too.

ktym

okay I heard back about my question of gloves:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding gloves worn by airport security screeners while checking baggage.



Transportation Administration Security (TSA) security screeners are instructed to wear gloves when conducting pat-down inspections of individuals and physical inspections of property. Screeners must wear only TSA-issued gloves when performing screening functions and use a new pair of gloves whenever a passenger raises a concern or requests that they do so. Screeners must also inspect their gloves regularly for stains, tears, and other signs of damage and replace them as necessary.



In addition, TSA provides screeners with nitrile gloves, not latex. Nitrile gloves provide more protection and sanitary efficiency than latex and are commonly used by other Federal agencies.



We hope this information is helpful.  

I do think it is great that it is possible to talk to them directly and get an answer.  I am grossed out that you have to ask to have those gloves changed.  I would strongly urge everyone who gets a pat down to ask for clean gloves.

Hoping that one day this is all a distant memory.

Claire82

Seems the gloves are to protect them - not us...

CoolBreeze

I would strongly urge everyone to avoid a pat-down by not flying.

Gloves are irrelevant to this issue.

LtotheK

I'm equally concerned about the radiation exposure of these machines, is it possible to ASK for a pat down?  Sorry if that's already been discussed, did a cursory review of previous posts.

I agree, we have to fight with wallets, but many of us are not in the position to do so.  I travel for work, I can't go to Miami from Chicago for a three-day trip in a car.

I was asked to take off my hat when I flew recently, and I didn't realize what a watershed it was going to be for me.  I burst into tears and told them I didn't want to be humiliated in front of all these people I didn't know.  They gently patted my head down.

I hope this will work when I explain that I don't want radiation from the machines.  What are others' thoughts?

Regarding how women in burqas are treated, just watch.  There is incredible racial profiling going on at airports.  People with Muslim-sounding names routinely get called for pre-board screening.  It is also outrageous.

mumito

Personally after all the radiation and scans my body has already taken next time I fly to Us I will just go through the scan with my foobs in my suitcase not the carryon.We don't have them here in Toronto yet.Indon't think one more scan will kill me.

DesignerMom

Okay, my DH just told me he read that the TSA does not even have access to the "no fly list" of people considered to be dangerous.  How much sense does this make?  I would gladly go through procedures if I believed they were keeping us safe.  I just don't believe this is doing that.  And these governement agencies are not even coordinating the no fly lists??? Insane.  And by the way, I was here in NYC when the towers fell, so believe me, I know that we are at risk.  This is just not the solution.

germangal

I am contemplating returning to the work force (or at least trying to!) and resuming my former career as a "road warrior" which means flying every week. Driving to Chicago on a weekly basis from NH is just not an option   The thought of the TSA screening and the time involved is causing me some trepidation. I am really considering carrying my foobs (yeah, I had a bilateral) in a see-through bag and sending them through the x-ray with my carry-on luggage. But, I'm not sure what to do about radiation concerns. When I think of the lines at DFW or ATL, I really cringe at the thought of how much more airport time I would have to allow for a pat-down. 

And, this really urks me because I had a government clearance that provided me access to lots of places the normal citizen wouldn't be allowed, including the air traffic control towers!  And was a member of the armed forces!  So, with all those really extensive background checks (inclduing interviewof my junior high school principal!), I would think I could be trusted to board a plane!

And, ditto to those of you talking about false security! Just take the DC Metro during commuting hours ... how safe did you feel there!

Time for a face-to-face with my legislative reps!

redsoxfan

 This is a letter sent by scientists at University of San Francisco to John Holdren, Obama's Czar for Science and Technology.  The authors express well-considered concerns that the ionizing radiation used in these machines poses a threat to many.  They name those they consider particularly at risk.  Three pages and worth the read.

http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

If I were a TSA agent, I'd be worried about radiation exposure and it's cumulative effect.  Of course, they can't wear badges that measure radiation exposure.  What do you think the public's reaction would be if they did?

We need to stop this now or next there'll be body scanning vans roaming the neighborhood.  Oh, wait. They already are.  

http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-body-scan-technology-deployed-in-street-roving-vans/

Call and write your senators and reps.  Then do it again.   And again until they get it.

otter

MHP70, you asked this:  "Is it possible to ASK for a pat down?"

Well, I'm not sure if I would literally ask for a pat-down.  What you should do is tell the TSA screener that you want to "opt out."  So far, the TSA is not requiring anyone to go through the whole-body scanners (backscatter X-ray or millimeter wave).  Anyone can "opt out", and those are the official words to use if you don't want to be scanned:  "Sir (or Ma'am), I am 'opting out' -- I do not want to go through the scanner."

Then, stick with it.  Some TSA screeners will try to convince you to go through the scanner anyway.  They'll tell you how safe it is; and how you'll get much more radiation during your flight than during the few seconds you'll spend in the scanner; and how the FDA, the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab, the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and who-knows-else have all evaluated the scanners, and the risk posed by them is "miniscule".  (All of those things are under debate right now.)

But, if you are polite but persistent, and if you keep saying, "I opt out," they must to allow you to bypass the whole-body scanner.  The alternative, though, is an "enhanced pat-down," which some people find more distasteful than the idea of a virtual strip-search.  Still, the TSA allows anyone to opt out.  You might have to say those specific words, and be firm.

BTW, if you do opt out, or if you end up having to be patted down anyway, even though you went through the whole-body scanner or a metal detector, remember that you can insist to have the pat-down in a private location.  The TSA cannot deny that request, even if they grumble about it and have to hunt around for a place to do it.  They must provide privacy, even if it's just a curtained-off area or screened cubicle instead of a separate room.  If they don't offer you a private location and you want one, be sure to ask.  Note that some people are declining the private place -- they figure that, if they're going to be felt up by a government employee, they want as many witnesses as possible.  YMMV.  I haven't made up my mind on that one.

Also, you have the right to be accompanied by a companion of your choice during the pat-down, if it's done in a private place.  The TSA cannot force you to go off somewhere behind a closed door or curtain with no one besides the TSA agent.  They must let you bring someone else.

Finally, the TSA says they will provide same-gender screeners for the pat-downs "if available."  Male TSA agents are not supposed to be doing pat-downs on women, but if there is no female screener handy, they might try to get away with that anyway.  Again, you have to ask for a female screener.  You might have to insist on it, especially if there isn't a female screener "available" at that time.  I simply cannot imagine being subjected to an "enhanced" pat-down by a male TSA employee.  But, the fine print says, same-gender "if available."  I've read of people having to wait way too long for a same-gender screener to be located -- even to the point of missing their flight.  That would really suck.

This all sucks.  What bothers me more than anything else, though, is when I read something like this on a friend's FB page:

+++++++++++++

"Dear America,
Quit bitching about the TSA keeping you safe. Most of the people who are upset about being groped are the last people the TSA wants to grope. I will sacrifice a little privacy to avoid being blown up by terrorists."

+++++++++++++

I am wondering where she will draw her line...

otter

KerryMac

I'm happy to hear that you can take a companion with you. ASt least my husband can come with me, that is not as intimidating as being taken off somewhere alone. Do you know if that is written somewhere?? (just so I know my rights if the situation arises...)

LtotheK

Otter, I'm pretty sure you rule!  So many people on this board have been my guides, thank you.

I deeply object to what my fellow survivors will have to endure with these scans--all options stink. Considering what I often get through security by mistake, I feel pretty sure the extra time spent looking at full-body scans will mean looser security in other areas.  There are simply too many people flying to provide real assurances, I know much of what they do at certain airports is for show in our chronically orange-alert country. 

otter

More stuff about screening, all from the TSA's own official website (http://www.tsa.gov/).

The following page explains the "privacy" measures the TSA takes, to be sure our Nude-o-Scope images don't appear on YouTube or somebody's FB page.  Scroll down to the bottom of the page and note this about the scanners being optional:  "Advanced imaging technology screening is optional for all passengers. Passengers who opt out of AIT screening will receive alternative screening, including a physical pat-down." -- http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/privacy.shtm

Here's a page that explains how the backscatter and milimeter wave scanners work, and what you'll need to do before you stroll into one.  The page even includes some examples of what the images look like.  IMHO, they're pretty graphic.  If I squint when I'm looking at the backscatter image of the guy, I can see his shin bones and some of the bones in his knee joints.  I'd read somewhere that the backscatter X-rays will show bones that are near the surface of the skin (shins, face, ??) in thin people.  So much for backscatter X-rays passing through the clothes but not penetrating the skin, eh?  (I hadn't been able to verify that claim about bones being visible until I saw that official TSA scan.) -- http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/how_it_works.shtm

Here's what the TSA site says about the pat-downs.  According to the info on this page, "...only a very small percent of passengers will get a pat-down in a given day."  I don't know what the TSA thinks is "a very small percent."  I've read testamonials on the FlyerTalk discussion forum that said TSA was doing pat-downs on more than half the people who went through the scanners at some checkpoints.  I guess it's highly variable.  Also, note this paragraph at the bottom of the page:  "In any case where a pat-down is required, you have important options that we want you to be aware of: you have the option to request that the pat-down be conducted in a private room and you have the option to have that pat-down witnessed by a person of your choice."  One thing I couldn't find on that page was any mention of same-gender screeners for the pat-down. --   http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/pat_downs.shtm

There is more info on that TSA site, so scroll around and check it out.

I sure don't want to be guilty of fear-mongering.  Maybe this is much ado about nothing (like a colonoscopy prep, once you're done with the procedure itself).  I really do hope the security wonks can think a little harder about all this and come up with some better ideas.  I mean, here we are in the 2nd decade of the 21st Century, and the best they can offer us is hand-groping or a virtual strip-search?  Please.

otter

sheila888

Ladies...I respect everybody's opinions.

But can you please tell me how someone can travel to see her DD in Hawaii when they cant take the train or the bus?

I had enough exposions to radiations and this is for a happy occasion.

One thing I don't understand if you go through the Xray machine do they still give you a pat down as a secondary precaution?

Medigal

From what I understand, if you go through the xray machines, you don't have to let them do the "pat down on you".  I think you get a choice.

doingbetter

Sheila,

If you go through the scanner you may still get a pat down if the x-rays pick up any foreign objects.  They could only pat you down in the area where the object was seen, but some have  been put through a complete pat down anyway.  The reason it's become such a hot topic here is that the scanner picks up everything.  For some people it's been as simple as forgetting to take tissues out of their pockets.  But it's a much bigger problem for people with any kind of medical devices, prosthetics, etc.  All of those show up and lead to further pat downs and examination. 

Annabella58

...I also swore I was not going to get on here, but here I am...

Ladies, you will not be offered a female TSA employee to pat you down, but you can request one and they must find you one.  This may delay everyone in line, and piss them off, but it has to happen if requested.

You are also able to request a private area for the pat down.   This will also not be offered, as it slows everyone down, and they may tell you they do not have one.  This is not true.  Stick to your guns and request both a female TSA employee and a private area.  Explain that you are a cancer survivor and that you have special needs with patdowns.

When you get alone with the female employee, explain that you either wear a prosthesis or that you are a cancer survivor and cannot be subjected to radiation. 

...you can also call ahead.......

All of this will slow you all down, but isn't it a reasonable alternative?  I want to fly safely and I am thankful for kind attendants.  I am also willing to wait for the right attendant.  They certainly don't want to do it!

jenn3

I do understand the need for security and am not quite sure what the solution could be, but have mulled over various ideas in my head - not that anyone would listen.  I think for me I would have a huge problem watching or knowing one of my girls is being patted down..........this I could not deal with mentally.  It was said that by boycotting the airlines will only hurt the airlines.  However, it would be a domino effect.  If the airlines are hurting, they will fight back against the very thing that is huring their revenue.......that is guaranteed.  I know that for some it is impossible not to fly, but for everyone else I think it is time we boycott the pat downs. 

cary1

I will be flying in a couple of weeks and plan to "opt out" and get the pat down. I have a lot of issues with the machine, the images (which can be stored, even if the TSA says they cannot. Google EPIC's FOIA lawsuit proving latter. Citation on request), etc. I opted out once before, and the back of the hand pat down was ok, except for one thing. When I declined, the TSA officers all decided to yell at the top of their lungs, REFUSAL!!! REFUSAL!!! We've got a refusal here, etc. etc. Everyone looked at me. It was unnecessary and punitive and that was months ago, before the new regulations. I fully anticipate the yelling again (since the new policy is meant to be punitive) and that makes me angry. The front of the hand search I am ready for. I think if I were a man I would be more upset since their genitalia is external. Whatever happens I will try my best to be polite and also not to make any jokes, though I would like to ask the TSA officers why they haven't bought me dinner first.

All this said, I know that these TSA practices are pure "security theater." They have very little to do with real security. It is scary that people are putting their faith in this screening when it is obvious that a terrorist will now use a body cavity or a cargo option. Or, even smarter, blackmail or threaten a TSA agent. Who is screening the screeners? The Israeli method of questioning is practical for a tiny country with an extremely limited number of people flying in and out. It is not practical, alas, for a country of 300 million with hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of flights a day. 

PS: The notion that we are protected by the 4th Amendment on this issue does not conform with legal precedent. Like it or not, airport operations are treated differently.

otter

Medigal, you said, "From what I understand, if you go through the xray machines, you don't have to let them do the "pat down on you".  I think you get a choice."

You do get a choice, but it's not the one you are thinking of.  It's actually the other way around, according to what I've read and according to the TSA website.  If you allow the screeners to do an "enhanced" pat-down (or whatever kind of pat-down they decide to do), you will not have to go through the scanner.  The scanner is always optional.  The pat-down is not.

As doingbetter said, even if you choose to go through the whole-body scanner, you might still end up being patted down.  That pat-down might be focused on one particular area, or it might be the whole shebang.  There is no way to know ahead of time.

There are actually several reasons why someone might be patted down after a scan.  The TSA site makes it sound really simple and very infrequent; but it isn't, according to the FlyerTalk board. 

One reason -- an infrequent one, apparently -- is that some people will be chosen at random to receive a pat-down even though they've come through the scanner unscathed.  I think it's like the random baggage inspections they've always done at TSA checkpoints.  Every 9th person in line, or every 3rd person with blue eyes (or whatever), ends up having his/her carry-on bag dumped out and examined. I've read something about a "Quad S" (SSSS) code printed or scribbled on your boarding pass.  Apparently, that means you've been "selected" for a random screen.  Everybody else sails through unless there's something odd on the X-ray image.  Some TSA folks have admitted to "randomly selecting" scanned passengers for pat-downs.  I wonder if they do that to keep us off-guard, or if it's done to test their system -- trying to correlate what they see in the scanner image with what they find in a pat-down.

Another reason for a pat-down after a whole-body scan is if something odd or suspicious is seen on the scanner image (as doingbetter said).  That is a fairly common reason for a scan + pat-down, from what I've read. The scanner images aren't very good at revealing exactly what an object might be, unless the object is something obvious, like a gun or a knife. In any case, the suspicious region will need to be checked out further, until TSA can "clear" it (i.e., figure out what it is and determine that it's harmless).  Sometimes the suspicious area isn't anything at all -- it might be there because somebody forgot to take their boarding pass or a wad of kleenex out of their pocket, for instance. 

Another reason for a pat-down after scanning is because there is a critical part of the body (a region where things might be hidden) that did not scan very well.  Y'all know Dave Barry, the "humorist"?  He told a funny story last week about his experience at a TSA checkpoint earlier this month.  Apparently, he went through the scanner but was pulled aside for a pat-down afterward.  When he asked why the pat-down was necessary, he was told that he had a "blurred groin."  If you know Dave Barry, you'll know how that went.  Here's the story, as told to Melissa Block at NPR:  http://www.npr.org/2010/11/15/131338172/humorist-dave-barry-and-the-tsa

So, we can never be assured that we will get through a checkpoint without a pat-down.  Even airports that don't have scanners are doing "enhanced" pat-downs now ... but not all of them, apparently.

Maybe it's just me, but I find some of the terminology unnerving.  "Screening", "checkpoint", "selection", ...  I get this image of James Bond, speeding toward a barricade, hoping to bust through before the guards with rifles catch him.  I get other images, too, but those are not so nice.

otter

Mandy1313

This may be obvious, but does anyone know if people have tried what the underwear bomber did a year ago?  So far as I know there have been no similar attempts.  So one year later, we now have increased invasive security because someone tried this a year ago.  Radiactive strip searches and pat downs which include our genitals--unless I am missing something, this is not doing a thing and just a government agency out of control. I want to see real security--analyzing the people who are flying and looking at them.  With computers, you can pretty well figure out every flight a person has ever taken.  And then we need to have agencies listen when they have a warning. The father of the underwear bomber warned the CIA that his son was likely to do something; the bomber paid CASH for his ticket from Nigeria--and did we do anything!  Yes, one year later we now subject millions of innocent people to scrutiny that is designed to intimidate the innocent while we still do not seem to have in place a method to screen for individuals likely to commit heinous crimes.  And if history bears repeating, the terrorists do not repeat---shoes one time; underwear another---each time the place becomes harder to test.   So I must be missing something about the reason to search our underwear and bras while not looking at the profiles of the persons likely to commit these crimes. 

2z54

I just went thru the scanner at O'hare last week. The pat down is optional; mandatory if you won't go through the scanner. 

I'm glad people are finally reacting to the intrusiveness of our government these days.  I always thought taking my shoes off was ridiculous.  And don't tell me about the "shoe bomber".  Who's to say he wasn't planted just so we sheeple would comply. This is getting ridiculous, and it's about time we demanded our right to privacy back...  imho.

ktym

I wish the boards had a "like" button like facebook does, I'd be clicking on a lot of these.  I've resented everything to do with shoes off and ridculous reactionary rules.  My parents were upset last night when asking when I was going to visit this winter and I said I wouldn't.  Between TSA and lymphedema I'm not flying. So far I've been able to refuse to fly at work, Luckily in these economic times someone saving a few dollars by not hitting a conference and doing a conference call instead is a desireable thing.  Like I mentioned, my platinum elite status and frequent flyer miles I'll likely be watching go down the tubes.  Same with the hotels, the taxis, the restaurants I used to give my business to. (pretty bad when I can tell you which hotel I prefer in every major city I used to travel so much.)  Do I feel bad about the domino effect in this economy, yes, but, not enough to put up with TSA

ktym

redsoxfan:  ACK!  Just read the link to your post.

7th paragraph down killed me "From a privacy standpoint, I'm hard-pressed to see what the concern or objection could be,"

Are you freakin kidding me Mr? You don't understand what the concern would be? Time to take my blood pressure meds I think

Edited to add: just to make it clear, I was reacting to what the man interviewed in the article, not redsoxfan, I've gotten into trouble on here before when that wasn't clear to people reading the post

DesignerMom

A friend just posted on FB that he was flying through an airport, connecting to another plane.  He revealed a nailclipper, small pocket knife and I believe a small corkscrew in his carry-on bag (by the way, he had carried it on the previous flight).  They allowed him to keep them.  The guy in front of him asked if he could keep his lighter and they allowed that too.  And the TSA is body searching 3 YO toddlers??  Insane to think they are keeping us safe!  I think the terrorists are LOL at our reactionary response.  There is a new term called "stealth jihad".  The theory is that the terrorists are doing things to make our society more and more divided, hoping we will sort of self-destruct ourselves.  Can't help but believe this could qualify.  We're thinking of taking the train instead of flying.  Now there is a completely unsecure area the government will jump on next!!!

LtotheK

A few folks have backed up what I've pointed out:  it's not possible with the number of flyers to offer exhaustive searching.  A lot of this is smoke and mirrors--with attention to the full body scans, less attention will be paid to bags, etc.

It's Chronic Orange Alert--that probably won't change without a whole new world order.  (That gets into some pretty interesting political debates probably best left off here!)

Susie123

I think like with everything else, there's going to be mostly good employees, and a few bad ones. I was recently pulled aside because of my implants for the enhanced pat down. Both TSA agents were very professional. I didn't have a "horror" experience, and I didn't mind it. I work with the public everyday. There is no particular "look" for someone who is going to be a problem. I understand the need for it. We just need to weed out the "bad" TSA agents.. Take their names and launch a formal complaint. With enough complaints on the same employee, they will be terminated.