Cytoxan and Taxotere ?
Comments
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Hi Traci,
Sorry to hear you are having a rough go of it. I would say my first several days after TC were not great and a couple fairly miserable, but about a week later I started feeling better. I have been force drinking at least 25-75 ounces of water a day plus I eat as much fruit as I can face and that seems to have helped the GI distress. I sill have a hard time eating raw vegetables and salads which were my staples before bc.
I haven't heard of just the T before, but any combo of these drugs is a tough road.
Joanne -
Hello
Thank you for your responses ladies.
I had my first TC course this morning and I still feel fine. It was very easy and somehow I do not feel particularly tired yet. I have to admit that despite my initial doubts the port-a-cath I had inserted made the whole process very convenient. Also, havent felt any nausea yet. They gave me Aloxi and Emend before chemo and I have been on Dexamethasone since yesterday. These drugs work. At least they do a fine job for me. So day 1 has been OK, but I am prepared for the rest to start
Joanne-Elisabeth: Yes, you are right. I have seen the comments from Dr Slamon (Herceptins father). Here in London I saw Prof. Ian Smith who has also done some work on the efficacy of adriamycin on TopoII overexressing tumours. He also believes that this theory is going to be proven correct, however the medical community needs more solid data on that before they switch to a different gold standard chemo treatment and this may take several years. The good news is that many labs/companies make a lot of effort to come up with a good commercially available technique to measure TopoII expression and something maybe available soon (maybe not soon enough for us ., but there is hope nevertheless).
Christine26: TC works equally well for ER/Pr positive and negative tumours. The initial study of Dr S. Jones back in 2005 has proven it. And it seems based on the medical literature- that overall hormone independent tumours respond better to chemo and have bigger benefits.
TraciWalters: For what kind of tumour are taking Taxotere only ? Do you take it every 3 weeks ? I am sorry to hear about your side effects. Do you take any Vit B ? My ocno prescribed me Pyridoxine (B6) 50mg three times a day because it may help. I have also seen the results from a study showing that Ginseng 1000-1500 mg/day during chemo helps to increase energy levels. I am going to try and see what happens.
Best wishes to all of you
Daphne98 -
Hi Daphne98,
I hope you continue to feel well.
I am reading conflicting information about Ginseng.
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69236.cfm#Contraindications
This is from Memorial Sloan Kettering
Contraindications
Breast cancer patients should use this product with caution as ginseng may stimulate the growth of breast cancer cells (9).
but I also have read in Prevention a study in China saying it increases your chance of surviving breast cancer.
How do you know what to do? Is it good for you or bad?
Joanne -
I just had my third AC treatment; not too bad. Anti-nausea meds help. After my 4th treatment, the oncologist will start me on taxol. The oncology nurse says that would be easier to take. I hope he's right!
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Hi all,
Joanne - yes, I think it's either the premeds or the Taxotere causing me to feel that way. I didn't get the heavy legs side effect with the AC, even with the same premeds. But, it only lasts like half a day which is good.
Christine - sorry to hear you're still having bowel trouble. I had a real problem with the big C for the first 3 AC txs as well as hemorrhoids. I'm not experiencing it quite as bad this time. Are you taking a stool softener before bed? I take two pills each night for probably the first 2 wks after each infusion. I also take 2 to 3 magnesium capsules (500 mg each) depending on how my bowels are doing. You can also use Milk of Magnesium instead. Magnesium has a natural laxative effect.
Traci - I'm currently only have Taxotere. The second week was the toughest for me after my first tx. I'm not sure how it will go this time. I had my 2nd tx yesterday and except for feeling a bit tired, feel fine today. I take Decadron for two days after the infusion and it has me munching on food almost non-stop. Guess I know where those 4 lbs came from! Were you given Neulasta or Neupogen? Those can cause intense lower back pain. I had one day with the last tx of intense bone pain but I can't remember where exactly I hurt. It could have been my lower back come to think of it. It should be tomorrow or the next when it happens, so I'll let you know. I take 3 ibuprofen and if that isn't enough, I add a Darvocet. I'm a baby - a cranky baby - when it comes to pain, lol.
Lisa - if your head starts to hurt too much, running a lint roller over it will help remove the hair strands that are hurting. It doesn't hurt at all.
Best Wishes Everyone,
Cynthia -
Daphne98, Thank you for clarifying that TC works both for ER- and +.
Joanne: Thanks for the link to the that article. I will ask my doc next time when I see him.
Cynthia: My bowel area has been acting really strange. Not constipated at all. But, that area hurts like crazy. The Chemo must be destroying something down there! -
Susan:
Sounds like you had your treatment in the winter/fall. Since you are a teacher and you are with kids all day. Wonder if you caught colds at all? -
Daphne,
I too am triple neg, no lymph involvement, 2.5 cm, still going thru tests for vascular stuff. In 3 weeks I'll begin my chemo which will include the ACT treatment. I think that will be my second round though - - I don't really understand what all of the acronyms are and if they are given concurrently... I have a HUGE list of questions for my oncologist... I want her to explain why ACT vs. "that other treatment" (wish I had it here to quote to you)... My concern is the long term damage potential to the heart --- I really need her to explain the pro's & con's of each treatment. Keep researching & ask questions.
Ladies! Thank you for posting how things are going, I appreciate every post so much as we walk, hide or run thru this journey, not a time goes by that I don't think of each one of us.
Hair loss I think I'm coming to grips with, I'm going to buzz cut mine so at least I'll know when it all finally falls out...
Not looking forward to hemmoroids - - uck. Oh and hip and bone pain.... Sleeping I might actually enjoy.
Anyway, back to making dinner for the kidlet and cooling off from 100 degrees in Seattle.
Love & Strength,
Michelle -
Michelle,
Are you doing chemo before surgery? Just curious. You are off to a very good start on this journey with your bravery.
My hats off to you.
Traci -
For those of you with bone pain (low back, etc.) That happenede to me afterwards, too. Also, my jawbones were effected. That was awful. But on the upside, it did decrease. Until it did, I used Therma Care heat patches (no drugs of any kind in those...and they relieve low back pain for up to 8 hours! Check with onc or go to www.thermacare.com). I also did acupuncture and got a massage, and bathed in epsom salts for pain relief.
Day 2 of losing my hair. Still haven't shaved it. No bald spots yet. I'm just not ready to go GI Jane. I never realized that losing hair would hurt! I've had a headache all day (but nowhere near as bad as the chemo headaches). PS - Thanks for the tip about the lint roller, Cynthia! -
Hi
*Jelliclecat:I felt exactly as you do a month ago, being bombarded with all the info about various chemo treatments and have to make a choice or trust blindly my onc. Luckily, I am in the biology field and I have a better understanding, but sometimes I can assure you ignorance is bliss.
I notice in your message that you say that you are triple negative with no lymph node involvement, but at the bottom you sign as stage II. If your nodes were clear (and you have no other signs of metastasis) you are stage I, irrespective of the size of your primary tumour. From what I have gathered AC followed by T every 3w or dose dense every 2w is the standard chemo treatment in most units in the US. In Europe they use it often, but many hospitals they are still resistant to adapt to the new data and still prefer the old FEC or FAC combo which seems to be a little less effective than TAC. However, after the results of the S. Jones trial in 2005 many US units changed to TC instead of AC for stage I breast cancer (meaning lymph node negative). That study shoewd that 4 cycles of TC work far better than 4 cycles of AC. Also, many units prefer TC instead of AC for patients with heart problems (Adriamycin is associated with cardiotoxicity). However, from what I gathered, no one has done yet a direct comparison of AC+T versus TC. Therefore, we have to take calculated risks. As it was posted before A seems to work better in tumours overexpressing the gene TopoII which is amplified primarily in Her2 positive tumours, so AC may not have a particular benefit (taking into account the potential long-term side effects) for women with Her2 negative tumours and all these Her2 positive women who do not overexpress TopoII.
Well, it is a personal call at the end. I weighted the pros and cons of accepting a good, but less established treatment like TC and made the decision to go for it. It is not an easy decision and unfortunately right now we have no as much evidence as we would like for it. However, if you are at an early stage with a small tumour the chances it will work are pretty good.
Good luck with your choice, take a second onco opinion if you are in doubts and be positive.
*Joanne-Elizebeth: Thank you for the site. You are absolutely right about the confusing data on herbs. I have seen some more positive results on the role of melatonin in ER+ breast tumours. Nevertheless, we are still in the fog with everything. All the best.
Daphne98 -
Hi
Thank you for the link. After I posted my previous message, I checked the S-K site you sent me more carefully. My initial impression for the conflicting data on Ginseng is that they are based on ER positive tumours. I did not read the publications, but it seems that maybe there is a correlation of Ginseng with increased estrogen production. I haven't seen anything like that for ER negative tumours. However, this does not meant that it works. Nevertheless, I have heard from various people (with no breast cancer) that it does help to boost energy levels and occasionally cognitive function. Who knows ! We need more trials and participants willing to take it !
Warm regards
Daphne 98 -
Daphne 98,
You are exactly right according to what I can absorb from all this ginseng info. I am ER+ so I am guessing maybe it isn't a good idea to take ginseng. Same type of conflict exists for ER+ women in terms of eating soy. They can't seem to figure out whether or not soy helps or hinders ER+ people. I am thinking you are ER-?
Lisa, how is the hair? I wore my new wig to my son's soccer game last night. It was very anxiety producing, but got thru it.
Joanne -
Regarding Soy: the following is from S-K website:
"Soy products may have a role in preventing the development of breast cancer. Soy products, such as tofu, tempeh, miso (a soybean paste), soy milk, and soy flour contain phytoestrogens (plant estrogens). These phytoestrogens may help reduce breast-cancer risk by binding to estrogen-receptor sites in the breast in place of the body's potent estrogens. In addition, most soy and soy products are excellent sources of two potent flavonoid phytochemicals, genistein and diadezein.
Scientists don't know if therapeutic amounts of soy products are helpful or harmful in the treatment of breast cancer. Early evidence suggests that women who are estrogen receptor + should not take excessive amounts of soy. Until further studies are done, eat soy products in moderation. Consume them as part of a healthy diet, but eat no more than two to four servings per week. Don't take soy supplements such as genistein and diadezein. "
There is a clinical trial currently being conducted on soy and BC. The doctor is associated with S -K. Can't remember the doc's name. But, I called her office a couple of months ago and spoke with a associate there. We talked for 15 - 20 minutes. She said the trial has been going on for almost 2 years. However, they havent found any clear evidence that soy is either good or bad for ER+ BC.
I used to take soy milk with cereal in the morning. But, my onco doc at S-K told me to stop.
Also stopped drinking wine. My husband read an article that there is a strong correlation between alcohol and BC.
April 30, 2007
Why alcohol boosts breast cancer risk: study
By Megan Rauscher
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A study in mice shows that moderate alcohol consumption stimulates the growth and progression of breast cancer by fueling the development of new blood vessels -- a process called "angiogenesis." It does this by boosting expression of a key growth factor known as vascular endothelial growth factor or VEGF.
Drinking alcohol -- even moderate amounts - is a well-established risk factor for breast cancer in women. A recent study found that 60 percent of breast cancer cases in women worldwide were attributable to alcohol consumption. But the mechanism(s) of alcohol-induced breast cancer are poorly understood.
Dr. Jian-Wei Gu and colleagues from the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson examined the effects of alcohol on tumor growth and progression of breast cancer in mice.
For 4 weeks, 6-week old female mice consumed regular drinking water or water containing 1 percent alcohol, which is equivalent to about 2 to 4 drinks in humans. In week 2, the animals were inoculated with mouse breast cancer cells.
"We found after about 4 weeks that breast tumor size almost doubled in mice that drank alcohol compared to control mice given plain water," Gu noted in a telephone interview with Reuters Health. Moderate alcohol intake also caused a noteworthy increase in tumor blood vessels compared with no alcohol intake.
The team also observed a significant increase in VEGF levels in the tumors of mice consuming alcohol compared to the tumors of control mice.
"VEGF can promote the formation of new blood vessels," Gu said. "This suggests that alcohol can induce tumor angiogenesis."
He presented the research at the American Physiological Society's annual meeting, part of Experimental Biology 2007, underway in Washington DC. -
Just found this:
Statistics about breast -
FACTS ABOUT BREAST CANCER IN THE UNITED STATES: 2005-2006
Nationwide, there will be 214,640 new cases of invasive breast cancer in 2006 (212,920 women and 1,720 men), and 41,430 deaths (40,970 women and 460 men). An additional 61,980 new cases of in situ breast cancer (primarily DCIS) are expected in women in 2006.
References: American Cancer Society: Cancer Facts and Figures 2006; http://www.cancer.org/downloads/STT/CAFF2006PWSecured.pdf.
According to the National Breast Cancer Coalition, in 2005:
The American Cancer Society estimates that a woman in the United States has a 1 in 7 chance of developing invasive breast cancer during her lifetime. This risk was about 1 in 11 in 1975. 1
More women in the United States are living with breast cancer than any other cancer (excluding skin cancer). Approximately 3 million women in the U.S. are living with breast cancer: slightly over 2 million have been diagnosed with the disease and an estimated 1 million who do not yet know they have the disease.
Breast cancer is the most commonly diagnosed cancer among women in the United States and worldwide (excluding skin cancer). In 2005, it is estimated that 269,730 new cases of breast cancer will be diagnosed among women in the United States: 211,240 invasive breast cancers and 58,490 cases of in situ breast cancer, of which, 85% will be ductal carcinoma in situ (DCIS).2
Breast cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death for women in the U.S (after lung cancer); approximately 40,410 women in the U.S. will die from the disease in 2005. Breast cancer is the leading cause of cancer death for U.S. women between the ages of 20 and 59, and the leading cause of cancer death for women worldwide.
Approximately 12% of women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer die from the disease within five years; at ten years, 23% will have died. Studies of women diagnosed with breast cancer in the past have shown that almost half (47%) of all women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer die from the disease within 20 years.3
Older women are much more likely to get breast cancer than younger women. Most breast cancers -- about 77% -- occur in women ages 50 and older. Less than 5% of all breast cancer cases occur in women under the age of 40. However, younger women who get breast cancer have a lower survival rate than older women who get breast cancer.
Combining all age groups, white (non-Hispanic) women are more likely to develop breast cancer than black women. However, black women are more likely to die of breast cancer than white women.
Black women have a higher breast cancer mortality rate at every age, and a lower survival rate than white women.4 The five-year survival rate for white women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer is 89% while the five-year survival rate for black women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer is only 75%.
Between 1990 and 2001, the mortality rate for women of all races combined declined by 2.3% annually. In white women, breast cancer mortality declined by 2.6% annually from 1992-2000. In black women, mortality declined by 1.1% annually during the same period.5 Mortality has declined faster for white women and for black women under the age of 50 than for those age 50 and over.
The current methods of treatment in use in the United States are: surgery (mastectomy and lumpectomy), radiation, chemotherapy, hormone therapy, and biological therapy (including, monoclonal antibody therapy).
Mammography screening does not prevent or cure breast cancer; however, it may detect the disease before symptoms occur. Breast cancer tumors can exist for six to ten years before they grow large enough to be detected by mammography. In addition, mammography is less effective in younger women than in older women.
All women are at risk for breast cancer. About 90% of women who develop breast cancer do not have a family history of the disease.
Factors that increase a woman's risk of breast cancer include: older age, earlier age at menarche, later age at menopause, nulliparity (having no children), later age at first full-term pregnancy, daily alcohol consumption, use of hormonal replacement therapy, postmenopausal obesity, ionizing radiation, genetic factors and family history of breast or ovarian cancer. Factors that decrease a woman's risk of breast cancer include: breast-feeding and physical activity (exercise).
Although scientists have discovered some risk factors for breast cancer, the known risk factors account for only a small percentage (~ 20%) of breast cancer cases. There are no proven interventions to prevent breast cancer and there is no cure. -
That makes me mad. Where are the list of factors our gov't can control and refuses to contol such as all the hormones they allow in beef and dairy (without warning labels) , the air and water pollution with all their toxins which mimic estrogrens? How about stress in this offshoring crazy country?
It is always the blame the victim mentality. How about the lack of a better screen in the last 50 years for the women in the US? It is convenient to tell us women it is because we had kids late and took their advice to take hormone replacement pills as big pharma's guinea pigs. -
Why is it even legal to put so many preservatives and pesticides in foods, when it is not neccesary to do so? Eating healthy and organic wouldn't cost so much if every company had to process their crops and food that way by federal law.
Joanne, my hair is falling out in huge clumps now. It also hurts, and it's embarrassing to have the back of my shirt loaded with strands. I am getting a friend to shave it 2morrow. *GULP*
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Lisa - having my head shaved wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it would be. Having it come out in handfuls was too much for me to handle. I still shudder to remember. It was like something out of a nightmare for me. But, shaving it made me feel in control and took away the discomfort, too. Oh, and I made sure I had makeup on when I did it. lol
I am also having bone pain in my jaw and face in general. My onc thought it was odd (not his words), but I'm used to having unusual se's.
So, let's see...it's day 3 and more tingling in my hands, nose has started to bleed, and tongue feels funny. The bone pain in my legs has gotten better. Oh, and I was raging chemo bitch today. I hate when that happens. I'm so glad my 5 yo dd had her first sleep over away from home tonight because she needed a break from psycho mamma. I'm hoping I sleep better tonight and will wake up feeling like my "normal" self. I had Restless Leg Syndrome going on last night and finally took an Ativan at 3 a.m., but it took over an hour to work.
Best wishes everyone. I hope we all feel better soon!!! We deserve it!
Cynthia -
It is legal to pollute our food and water because that is what big business wants so Congress gives it to them. Also it makes me sad to admit that the money in breast cancer is in the treatment, not in the prevention.
Lisa, best of luck with the hair, I am just a couple days behind you, but my beauty salon of wigs and head bands and clips is ready to go even though it is hot and humid weather in the East. Wore a wig again to work yesterday and got som e, "Wow Joanne you really changed your hair remarks." I said thanks and kept on going !
Joanne -
Cynthia you do deserve to feel better soon! I hope you continue to get some child care breaks. I have 2 teens who should be mostly self-sufficient and that is tough enough thru this, I cannot imagine having young kids though the kids do give you a positive reason (most days LOL!) to keep on keeping on thru this. I had some of the bone aches and pains and also have carpal tunnel which doens't help, but it mostly eased up after a couple days. I figure it is a trade off for some good white blood cells!
I know what you mean about the raging chemo bitch. The last time about day 2 I had to tell my DH to stop making any quick turns in the car and to STOP SINGING. I couldn't stand it. Now I know it is the chemo. I guess I better warn him next week. We are getting thru this and it better be doing it stuff, helping to my butt!
Anybody see the research this week about Chinese who adopt western diets of meat, shrimp, sugar, etc having increase breast cancer rates? What oh what am I supposed to eat? -
Hi Cynthia:
Sounds like day 3,4,5 are the rough days for everyone. When you are feeling like this, you can tell yourself that you will feel better in a couple days.
I have been feeling great since yesterday. Feeling like a normal person.. ONLY if I had hair!
Hang in there. Oh, for nose bleed, have your tried to use A & D ointment in the nose? -
Hi:
I just popped in as I remember the combination well. Cynthia, I am thinking about you. I sure hope you take advanatge of good people who offer to have your child over for periods of time so you can rest. My children are 24 and 27 and I cannot figure how you cope with a young child. Isuppose we just do.
My hair is now 2 inches long and sooooooo cury. I have never had curly hair and now I have it and I cannot figure how tomanage it. IT really has a mind of its own. This cancer trip is so weird....now with a whole new head of hair I cannot control. It ius actually fine and I am just glad thatI have it. Funny what youlearn to apprecuate. I just always assumed I would have hair.
I would do "salt" gargles and it made my funny tongue feelbetter. I recall that it felt "furry" ...YUCK...and the salt water made it feel clean. Allthe tingle feelings are now gone (I finished chemo in December). I do remeber the chemo rage. I was so mean to people. I was so luck bceause I guess they understood I was just miserable. Asking to stop the singing in the car is so what it felt like. Things were so irritating. -
Cynthia: Just keep remembering that your 'good' week is coming up!
Joanne, hilarious about the wig. That will be me - mine debuts tomorrow with my boyfriend. He's been away for like a month flying back and forth to Asia. So glad he will be here for this treatment...yet I look so 'GI Jane' now. I got buzzed short today. My friend did the buzzing, and she even brought me a bouquet of sunflowers to soften the blow
I hate how I look, but this too shall pass. My little girl wants to draw on it when I'm bald. I told her I'd have to get back to her on that one! -
Lisa, brave move to get the buzz. I think mine is starting to fall out, my scalp feels very strange the last day. Your friend sounds fabulous, exactly what you need to get through this. I find myself starting to dread the chemo next week, how about you?
How is it going Cynthia? Are you feeling any better? Seems like the first week is a challange.
Joanne -
Quote:
...in your message that you say that you are triple negative with no lymph node involvement, but at the bottom you sign as stage II. If your nodes were clear (and you have no other signs of metastasis) you are stage I, irrespective of the size of your primary tumour. Daphne98
Hi Daphne,
Thanks for responding... I too have a nursing background, that makes us very painful patients to our physicians
My report from the onc. shows Stage II... I am still going thru testing to determine if it has metastisized vascularly. I'm just lucky it hadn't reached my nodes yet. The size of the tumor (from what I understand) is what determined the staging. I also copied this from the breastcancer.org site, because there is more than 1 definition to be put into the staging categories. Thought you might find it interesting...
Stage II
This stage describes invasive breast cancer in which:
The tumor measures at least two centimeters, but not more than five centimeters, OR
Cancer has spread to the lymph nodes under the arm on the same side as the breast cancer. Affected lymph nodes have not yet stuck to one another or to the surrounding tissues, a sign that the cancer has not yet advanced to stage III.
Your feedback regarding the chemo is very helpful. I am staying positive, although I'm a bit ticked off at my body for giving me an infection at my mastectomy incision line... Now the chemo has to wait an extra 2 weeks, ugh. I just want this stuff OUT OF MY BODY... like NOW.
On the other hand, I will have better insurance when August rolls around, so maybe it was 'suppose' to happen this way....
Anyway - - thank you all for continuing to post, you are an inspiration to us who have not made it as far down the path yet.
Take care,
Michelle -
Greetings! I just happened upon this board as I get ready to start my first Cytoxan/Taxotere treatment this coming Thursday. Thanks for all of the helpful insight. It will be "interesting" to see how different/similar my experience will be. One or two things struck me as I read through this thread: (1) My onc also cautioned against eating raw fruits and veggies during the window when my count would be at its lowest. I dread not having my daily does of strawberries or salad. Sounds like a sure fire way for me to put on some pounds. Yuck. Can anyone recommend a site with guidance about diet and nutrition? I have just found ones with Dos and Don'ts. (2) I haven't read any messages about menopause...I am pre-menopausal and my onc has told me that this treatment will throw me into menopause. I'm just wondering whether any of you ladies have had to deal with those effects in addition to the ones for chemo...or do they all seem to blend together?
-
I agreed to be part of a clinical trial where half of the participants received TAC, and the other half TC. I was hoping to draw the TC component, but it was not my lot. The first two clinical trials have found that the women getting the TAC got no better results than those omitting the Adriamycin. An added plus is that the Neulasta injection is also not necessary.
I was a bit disappointed, but since with my Oncologist TAC is the standard of care for my particular type of cancer(early stage estrogen positive with lymphnode involvement)I feel I may be helping someone in the future. Take care, rose -
Rspayne,
Any chance you have any links to the TAC vs TC trials? I would love to see this since I agonized over this choice for so long and still second guess myself.
Rspayne, I will be getting my second TC Wed. Only good part about it is I have 2 unread Oprahs to keep me busy.
I also have read if you can't really wash fruits and veggies such as raspberries you should not eat them. I have eaten all fruits and vegetables otherwise, but I do triple wash already washed veggies such as pre-packaged salads. I also eat salads out which probably isn't the smartest idea in the world. I personall avoid strawberries and raspberries during chemo.
Anybody read that you should not swim in public pools? I haven't read this, but someone admonished me not to do it.
Joanne -
Rose:
I get bone pain from Neulasta shots. Wonder if you can point us to find that information about Neulasta not necessaary...?
Cynthia:
have been thinking of you. Are you feeling better?
Christine
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