The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread
Comments
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I wish I was there. Amy, where's your source for the story. I'd like to read it all.
Nevermind I found it, and after those drinks, she went out dancing:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/04/11/politics/fromtheroad/entry4009509.shtml
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Amy,
I had to go back a number of pages to find what I had written, in reference to your post to me: "What you say about electing an african american president is an insult to Obama and his supporters. I don't believe anyone wants to elect an african american president as an exercise and more than people want to elect a woman-- but because there is a more than competent one running, it's an opportunity to vote for a black or a woman, doing so will set a precedent."
This is what I wrote:
6 Apr 2008 01:35 PM
Hey Shokk,
I had to read that article again ... and it was still too wordy for me, but what I did get from part of it was the author was saying Black folks voting for a Black president (who won) would be participating in a historic moment in American history, same as White women voting for Hillary, or my little personal addition .. VietNam vets voting for McCain (couldn't come up with anything else for him).
Still, any race or sex voting for Barak or Hillary (assuming one of those two won) would also be participating in a historic moment for the United States of America.
Don't think I insulted any of the candidates in my comment. Perhaps it was the author who wrote the article.
Bren
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Sorry Bin, I mistook what you said to to mean blacks were only voting for Obama because of race. I'm not used to discussing issues with people who don't use the same verbiage as I do in these type disussions. It didn't even occur to me that some of you might not know what I was referring to when I used the term intellectual elitist as it applies to the political disussion. Everyone in my family and circle of friends speaks the same language as I do in these type discussions,even when espousing different views. I come from a long line of people who place eduation and intellect as important values. There are only 2 adults in my family who have bachelors and not advanced degrees. I wasn't intending to infer anything but what the demographics show, it wasn't an editorial on my part.
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Obama4President: I'm somewhat confused about why you assume that any or all of us are less educated than you and your "long line of people who place education and intellect as important values." I also grew up in a family that values education and I too have advanced degrees.
Shirley: I've said this before, you are very openminded and I like how you hold your ground. You are about the same age as my mother-in-law and I can't help but compare you two. You are a lot more savvy and aware of politics and willing to search for answers to the difficult questions. I adore my M-I-L, but you have it way over her (even with her outdated degrees that she never used anyway!)
(Adding: I totally agree with BinVA's post below! She said it perfectly!)
Justanna
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Amy,
Higher education doesn't necessarily equate to language and dialect or even intellect. I'm smarter and know more "words" (and what they mean) than anyone in more family, and have the least of amount of formal education. I'm not so sure vocabulary is the issue here. I can speak Southern, West Coast, Bible, Sarcastic, and even University, depending on the company I'm with. I prefer to keep it simple for my own benefit.
Everybody on this forum has their own interpretation of what intellectual elite means as it applies to the political discussion. Personally, for me, most of the time, it appears to be a lot of self-involved, highly and possibly over-educated, folks trying to impress others with their perceived self-importance, and general assumption that no one else without their degree of education can possibly understand the intricacies of race, religion, economics or politics.
In my opinion, there truly is no intellectual elite. The so-called intellectuals (professional thinkers) needed to differentiate themselves even further from their ranks, and tagged themselves the "elite." Talk about class discrimination.
I do agree, though, we can get tripped up in our use of language.
Edited to add: What is truly ironic is that if you met me at a fund raiser for Obama, the library, or wherever, based on my appearance, dress, carriage and vocabulary, you would assume that I had advanced degrees.
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I know many advanced degree people that are dumbasses
And anyone can make something of themselves and be "smart" or "intellectual" regardless of their previous education
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I'm just really surprised you guys haven't heard political pundits talk about different demographics and which voters in which tend to gravitate to which candidates. Obviously this isn't everyone-- don't shoot the messenger.
I think it's funny that some people don't view this as a positive. Perhaps if there more mensa members voting Bush would have never gotten elected, especially for a 2nd term and this country wouldn't be in all the trouble that it's in financially and with the war. Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar and there was a budget surplus when he left office.
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only because he never had to buy his sex!!!!
It was In House and free!!
Please He got most of His Money for this Country by selling
Our pride, and is still taking money from China!!!!
Puppy
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Amy,
This is Inna. I changed my user name since unfortunately there is a good chance that my coworker might join this board after her biopsy
per my suggestion. And so I wanted to have more anonymity here. You know there is a difference between being intellectual and having a common sense. Sometimes two do not coincide. Throughout the history so called intellectuals were quite naive and lacked common sense. case in point: Russian revolution. It was not started by peasants or factory workers, it was started by Russian "intelligentsia" who believed they knew better what was good for "common folks". It was almost a poetic justice when it turned on them in a few decades later.
Why even have elections when a lot of people in this country are not members of an intelligent elite. With your statements you put down African Americans , Hispanics and other minorities since they have the less educated voters that other groups. It is very illuminating to finally see liberals for what they are: being condescending to the very people they claim to support.
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"I'm just really surprised you guys haven't heard political pundits talk about different demographics and which voters in which tend to gravitate to which candidates. Obviously this isn't everyone-- don't shoot the messenger."
"I'm not used to discussing issues with people who don't use the same verbiage as I do in these type disussions. It didn't even occur to me that some of you might not know what I was referring to when I used the term intellectual elitist as it applies to the political disussion. Everyone in my family and circle of friends speaks the same language as I do in these type discussions,even when espousing different views. I come from a long line of people who place eduation and intellect as important values"
Amy, we watch the news shows, yes we hear what they say but they do not demean their audience nor do they talk in a condescending mannner and tell the tv audience to be open-minded.
Oh, and it's spelled e-d-u-c-a-t-i-on. I did well in spelling.
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ijl- my statement isn't a put down to minorities and I disagree with your premise that minorities are necessarily less smart or educated than others. Intelligence tests are skewed toward the majority and somewhat biased and in my experience with grad school there were a number of students that were not the majority. We had a big push towards cultural diversity in both students and professors. I certainly do not think of hispanics and blacks as being of lesser intelligence, even if that is how you think or that has been your experience. If anything many of the minorities who have taught me and studied with me have had to overcome more obstacles than I did as a white woman, raised in a home where education was a given. Even though I went to public schools, I always lived in the best school districts. I never had old textbooks or lack of textbooks and there were enough for every student. Even though I had awful parents, I was lucky for the educational opportunities I had. I paid for all of it on my own, through working and loans, money I started saving at 11 when I had my first babysitting job-- 11 year olds seem so young to me now, but where I grew up in a small town in the 70s it seemed older.
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RM thank you for finding my typo-- or as you say, poor spelling. Let me know if you find any more, I'm notorious for missing them.
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Amy, there you go putting words in people's mouths. Inna never said that minorities were "less smart"!! Why in the world would you try to paint her that way?
Inna, I love what you said, "It is very illuminating to finally see liberals for what they are: being condescending to the very people they claim to support." Obama really seemed to get caught on that and so have some who post here.
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RM, It's about interpretation, not about what "liberals" are saying or what they believe and seem to deliberately misinterpret. I was not saying that Inna thought the minorities were less intelligent or educated, only questioning her assumption that is what I was saying and I asked whether she assumed they were less educated or less intelligent. Sometimes I think you deliberately misinterpret things that you don't agree with.
Amy Hussein
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Amy said: "I come from a long line of people who place eduation and intellect as important values."
Honestly, I never heard of education or intellect as being an important value in a family. Truly, this may be why you don't seem to understand our verbiage. Most family values have to do with love, commitment, acceptance, honesty and truth, team work or responsibility. Many would say that family values are principles to live by, a moral code that defines your family or group.
Education is certainly important but if the amount of education one receives causes the person to become snobby, elitist and rude, then the person needs to spend some time with kids and puppies! Or maybe major in comunication! Life in America can be nice: kids, Mom, apple pie and old fashioned family values!
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You said to her: "my statement isn't a put down to minorities and I disagree with your premise that minorities are necessarily less smart or educated than others.......I certainly do not think of hispanics and blacks as being of lesser intelligence, even if that is how you think or that has been your experience."
Tell me how I misinterpreted that? You said that. She did not utter those words or views. I quote you Amy so as not to be accused of skewing your words.
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A little history lesson, Amy.
My family couldn't care less about education. Two of my brothers never finished high school. My oldest brother and I were the only ones to graduate. He would have done so well in college.
My husband's family...his mom was a nurse, and his dad had a ninth grade education. But, back in those days one could get a job without a degree. My fil worked as a real estate agent (that was one job). He then went to work with the Corp of Engineers. How 'bout that!
My husband was the first "Hughes" to attend college. My mil was so wanting him to get a degree. She was so smart. She was valedictorian of her high school and she was from Maine. My dh and his dad had ANOTHER fight and dh quit college and went into the Air Force. Instead of getting a degree he got ME!
My husband is very intelligent. My children are VERY intelligent. I always give credit to my mil, dh and a little bit to my mom..they sure didn't get it from me.
So, dh's mom valued education. My dh didn't get that degree she so wanted for him. Nor did his two brothers. Nevertheless, one of those brothers went to work drafting for an architect firm. He received his apprenticeship, then took a course through the mail, past all the tests and received his architect license and now owns his own business. I believe one has to actually go to college to receive an architect license these days. He was always very "artsy" and creative, and is absolutely great at his job.
My dh and I BOTH valued education for our children. And, in this day and time one really needs that in order to get a good job. However, there are those with college degrees that can't get a good job because they lack common sense and/or logic.
My poor children have to hold discussions with their uneducated parents.
I can't believe they still call on us for advice. 
Amy, you know about my family. What degrees do you have and where did you receive them (if you don't mind me asking)?
Shirley
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Wow, this thread is moving fast. I just went to a farmer's market , came back and saw all these responses.
Amy,
When I said that minorities have less educated voters , I meant by sheer statistics, i.e. percentage of college educated people among those groups. I did not imply there were less smart than others just less educated. I do hope you are not going to dispute this statement.
I don't know what it means to be intelligent in your eyes, perhaps I need clarification beyond the requirement that they have to be voting for Obama
Intelligence tests are skewed toward the majority
If this is true , then how do we determine who is intelligent and who is not in our world. Would that then become a subjective thing? If we can not quantify it , how do we recognize it ?
BTW, if Intelligence tests are skewed toward the majority , how come Asian kids are doing so well in them ?
So please tell us what does it mean to be intelligent ?
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There is a saying...
PhD= "piled higher, and deeper"
My husband claims, from his experience in the workplace, there is an element of truth to it! "Intellectual elitism" - whatever!
M.
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M.
As you know sometimes being able to "pile higher and deeper' is a very valuable skill. And btw Obama is amazingly skilled in this, although he does have a slip-up here and there.
"Hope is change and change is hope!!!" is a great example of this.
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Standardized intelligence tests are also skewed against immigrants too, ilj (do you not want us calling you inna any more?- I have to get used to the new name) because they have a cultural bias. I'm not sure if any of that has changed or if they skew the scores differently, they didn't when I was testing folks 10 years ago. They're still using the same tests,they're rarely updated. I'm most familiar with the WAIS and the WISC-R. There is a lot of literature out there on intelligence tests and bias. I know of no studies that show asian children and adults have scored higher on IQ tests than caucasians or other minorities. Is there a specific asian group of testees you are referring to or asians in general? The bias depends a lot on when a child is tested. If you test two 5 year olds who haven't been to school and one has parents who talk and read to her and another is parked in front of a tv, there will be differences in certain areas of the test that might not be there if these same children are tested at 8 or 15.
Shirley- I have a bachelor in business mgmt, a master in social work and a doctorate (PsyD) in Psychology- I am not comfortable putting what universities I attended because of anonymity, but I can tell you they schools were mid- level priced private universities, although for my undergraduate degree it was a college at the time I attended then became a university after I graduated and it got more doctoral programs. They certainly weren't schools anywhere as prestigious as the Ivy leagues, but they are accredited and have very good reputations. I never lived on campus, I preferred to commute because I worked almost full time during school and I never shared a bedroom with anyone and didn't want to. I graduated from undergrad a year early, in 3 rather than 4 years because I wanted to move away from my hometown and start my independent life. I wasn't in school for the fun part, in undergrad just the academics. In grad school I was involved in student government- drafted my first year and president my last year, mostly because no one else wanted it although I did run against someone. I like to say I took the scenic route, because it took me longer than most because I was dx with fibro mid way through and had to learn to figure out my health and how to balance-- so as quick as I got thru my undergrad, I did slowly in grad school-- which I did back to back. If you're than interested in where I went, you can PM me and I'll tell you.
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You know-- the PhD thing makes me curious-- since when is education not something to value? I'm shocked that RM never heard of that as a value in a family-- I don't see how it could not be a value in a family.
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I didn't say education is not to be valued. But to most people, I believe, education would not be considered a core family value. To me a core family value is something which all other values are based on. Most value their job but having integrity and honesty as core values would prevent them from stealing from their boss.
Unlike personal values where what you keep...your job...is tightly connected to what you want to get...maybe a promotion...core values are things you feel strongly enough about to keep regardless of what you get. The early Christian martyrs kept their faith...despite getting the run around from the lions in the arena.
Your core values are those strong desires which you will not yield on. They are the bedrock of your life...your morality...your other goals and your actions.
I think life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness would be good examples of family values (doesn't mean you have to have a family) and I think I use family values and core values interchangeably. Education is a means to get there ....
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Amy,
- A high IQ score (i.e. someone who is or could be a member of mensa) most certainly does not give someone common sense.
- A high IQ score does not even give one "intelligence".
- Similarly, education does not give one intelligence.*
- An education certainly does not make one smart.*
- in-tel-li-gence n. 1. The faculty of perceiving and comprehending meaning; understanding. 2. The ability to adapt to new situations. 3. The collection of secret information, as by the police or military. 4. Information that has been so collected; also, the persons so occupied. (Funk & Wagnalls)
- in-tel-li-gence noun 1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. 2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit. 3. the faculty of understanding. 4. knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received or imparted; news; information. 5. the gathering or distribution of information, esp. secret information. 6. Government. a. information about an enemy or a potential enemy. b. the evaluated conclusions drawn from such information. c. an organization or agency engaged in gathering such information: military intelligence; naval intelligence. 7. interchange of information: They have been maintaining intelligence with foreign agents for years. 8. Christian Science. a fundamental attribute of God, or infinite Mind. 9. (often initial capital letter
) an intelligent being or spirit, esp. an incorporeal one, as an angel. (Random House Unabridged)
While I value education (yes, I have a post-graduate degree), I have found over my life that some of those who are the most educated are the least intelligent and certainly seem to have the least common sense. They get too tied up in theory and don't see the reality of what's going on. They parse the words so carefully that they lose the context of the larger point. They are idealistic but often totally unrealistic. They strive so hard to find the 'perfect' solution that they end up providing no solution at all. Or they provide the theoretically 'perfect' solution, not realizing that it can't be executed or is doomed to fail.
On the other hand, I have encountered over my life many individuals who are less educated but who are highly intelligent and possess oodles of common sense. They're the ones I want on my side.
I have seen many of the political pundits talk about who is voting for each of the candidates. But I don't view it as a positive that it's university students, professors and the so-called "intellectual elite" who are leaning towards Obama. If that's who Obama is appealing to, I view it as a sign that Obama is out of touch with reality.
* Let's not forget that George W. Bush has a post-graduate degree and attended both Yale and Harvard.
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OFP:
Having later obtained a PsyD myself, which I don't brag about because it merely reflects the amount of books I've made time to read and the lectures I've sat through and the papers I've consequently written; (still no novel; I feel it inside me but don't yet feel worthy.) I guess I'm saying I'm a lot humbler than you because while I do value my education and experiences, I don't see any of it as more valuable than what other people have been through on this board.
Obama4President, do you recognize that there is an emotional intelligence in people that cannot be taught through our educational institutions that is far more important than terms, vocabulary, and "psycho-babble" as some wise friends here have mentioned. People aren't diagnosises; they are unique individuals with unidentifible souls; your experiences are far different than anyone else's on this thread, as are mine and as are their's. Appreciating and respecting those differences is the key to empathy and knowledges beyond the education you so actively defend.
By the way, your lack of grammar and spelling pisses me off too, as I was first an English major. The least you could do is utilize the spell check/grammar feature on this site. If you really wish to serve as one of the the "elitist intellectuals", it would seem you would want to present yourself by communicating in a reasonable fashion. I'm not trying to be the "grammar or spelling police" and it really doesn't bother me when others mess up, because I know it's not that important in real life, EXCEPT when someone starts indicating they are somehow intellectually superior to others on the board. It seems more than hypocritical that you're supposed to be better educated than others here but not willing to bother with proper spelling or punctuation.
I used to tell one of our more challenging daughters, "Just because you are difficult and no one understands you, that doesn't mean you are necessarily an ARTIST. It just could be that you're difficult and no one understands you." She had to work through all that with a therapist (and a lot of family support) before she could find her true artistic gifts. I hope you find that peace as well. One can't expect everyone else on the planet to accomodate all their opinions with a "Well,they're just much more mentally healthy as I am." After a while one has to explore what is wrong with their own thinking patterns.
You've never even asked for advice on this board, as far as I can tell; nonetheless, my primary goal for a suggested search is to get off your high horse, stop judging others and work on your own prejudices (an "educational" snob is just as awful as a racial one; actually worse because YOU should know better! Google it!)
Justanna
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Well, I have to say after we moved into our second house which was thirty years ago, my daughters had their own bedrooms. It was a priority for me because of my own sleeping arrangement. However, when they went off to college they had absolutely no problem with having to have roommates. My oldest daughter stayed on campus all four years. Most of the kids in that particular university did because they were close knit and liked to party (to my dismay). Of course the other two also liked the partying thing. I do NOW see it as a "college experience" and I am very happy they had that opportunity, AND that they LIVED through it. My youngest lived in a sorority house her last year. My middle daughter went to our local university, had her own apartment for a while before moving back home.
If one can afford (which we couldn't) to give their children the experience of stepping out on their own (so to speak) for the first time I think it's a wonderful "adventure."
I'm sorry you didn't want to share a room.
Shirley
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justanna ..... thank you for understanding why I pointed out her spelling mistake. I was being sarcastic, wasn't I? Good comments.
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What is Obama going to do about his comments? He really has fired people up and Hillary is using it to get people in her camp. What else has she got up her sleeve that she is holding to her chest ? She has info on him that would make him unelectable?
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hOOked oN phOnicS workEd fer me
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Hmmmm....I wonder.....who IS Barrack Obama!?
His "former" pastor was doing some kind of ranting about O'Reilly and Hannity at a friend's funeral. I believe he spoke at the funeral. Can't imagine why one would rant at a friend's funeral. Suppose I'll have to stay tuned to see what's going on.
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One of the biggest regrets that my husband and I have is that we did not have "dorm" experience and stayed home instead. My parents would not even entertain an idea of me not living home while in college and of course financially that would have meant more loans. So I am "envious" of my girls. I think this is a good learning experince.
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