The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights. 

justanna

All right; if anyone has any idea why I keep posting multiple responses and have to go back and delete them, please give me some advice!  This is EMBARRASSING!

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have the same rights enjoyed by heterosexual couples.  It infuriates me that gay marriages are not recognized by all states and that our current president insists that lesbians/gays are still somehow "immoral" and thereby lacking the constitutional rights granted to all other individuals.  I sometimes feel like a criminal in my own country because I am not granted the same equalities "straights" enjoy.  We've made the best of it, granted, but we feel for less fortunate lesbians/gays.

A big case could be made against the Clintons for the promises they made the gay community and then later on "dropped".  I'm disappointed to hear that the gay and lesbian community is favoring Clinton over Obama and can't even think of why someone gay (or female for that matter) would even consider voting for a Republican candidate (I recognize this is going to make some of you mad at me, but seriously, republicans are anti-choice and want to take our reproduction choices away from women.  How do those who vote Republican, in good conscience, pull the voting tab against our daughters' future reproduction choices?  That's not even a "gay" issue, which I realize a lot of people have issues with. It is about basic choices all women should have the right to.)

I'm not saying Republicans are TOTALLY wrong and I like McCain a lot more than I like Bush.  But if we elect another Republican into the whitehouse our basic human rights as women will be further diminished.  (And the gays may as well sacrilege ourselves.)

Actually, upon further reflection, I ADORE OBAMA and have from day one, but if it gets down to it, I just want to vote for whoever will beat McCain. 

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights.  It pisses me

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights.  It pisses

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights.  It pisses me off

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights.  It pisses me off tremendously

justanna

Grace:

I totally agree.  Everyone should have

the same rights.  It pisses me off tremendously that

NoH8

Justana== you agree so much you had to repeat yourself LOL!

justanna

Yep, I'm impassioned; LOL!  If someone knows what I'm doing wrong, please tell me!

Anonymous

Justanna, There was a lag in the system and I was pressing submit several times on a post.  I think I got them before they actually posted.  No worries, JA ....

sccruiser

Thanks Justanna for your comments. It is frustrating when a candidate makes promises and then reneges on them, or as you said just drops them. I don't know why gay/lesbian issues always seem to get marginalized.



And the military seems to be more homophobic than any other government agency. To actually not want men or women who can speak and translate Arab languages just because they are gay, is in fact, cutting your nose off to spite your face, so to speak. It boggles the mind how they can justify that military decision. So, if they can't find anyone, they go ahead and send in those heterosexual troops to battle and become the bomb fodder that month, day, whatever. Guess 17 more died (of our troops) in the past few days. The number keeps rising, you would think that Bush would get the message.



The news said that he was not going to do anything really, just leave it for the next president to clean up. Disgusting warmonger!

CherrylH

Grace,

Today's Chicago Tribune quotes the First Occupant as describing the recent events in Iraq as brilliant, and that we have the initiative and will turn this war around. And he told Pertraeus (sp???) that he had "all the time he needs" to turn things around. Yes, he playing down the clock and it will fall to the next president to clean up this mess.

And speaking of the First Occupant, one of my most cherished Christmas gifts is a countdown calendar until the inauguration. As of today, 284 more days of unenlightened leadership.

Cherryl

NoH8

Did anyone see the documentary and  follow up town hall meeting on race in america called Meeting David Wilson. It premeired on MSNBC last night. Seeing them together is a must-- each was 90 minutes. The documentary was brilliant, about an African American man who, when searching his lineage discovered his great grandfather was a slave and in searching where that happened, he also discovered another man named David Wilson who's great grandfather was a the plantation owner. What happens from there is an journey for the first David to meet the 2nd one and have some difficult discussions. Both families eventually met and the 1st went on to do his DNA and find out where his ancestors were taken as slaves from africa. He goes to the village.

After the documentary both David Wilsons were part of the discussion at Howard University with white and black panelists from across the county to discuss different racial issues and how far things have changed for blacks and how far there is to go. The discussions were frank and to the point, not focusing on necessarily being politically correct. My only criticism is that the discussion might be too geared toward what the panel called "the intellectual elite" and go over the heads of the people, both black and white, who would benefit most from hearing the discussion-- the ones who need it most. Also, the panelists were primarily well spoken and evolved in terms of race relations-- there weren't any people who think the way some in the discussions here think. One of the white panelists said of those in the majority who don't understand the complexities, "people say things like 'when do we get a white history month'. "

Did anyone else see it?

NoH8

Cheryl, the countdown I have says 282 days-- maybe I'm only counting to January 19th because on the 20th we will have our new prez?????

Anonymous

"Also, the panelists were primarily well spoken and evolved in terms of race relations-- there weren't any people who think the way some in the discussions here think. One of the white panelists said of those in the majority who don't understand the complexities, "people say things like 'when do we get a white history month'. " "

hmmm

Anonymous

Well, Amy, I'm trying very hard to stay away from this thread and these discussions.  I find YOUR quote, especially the one Roctobermom posted, condescending.

I've been away from the computer because my dd, sil and grandbabies are here.  What a pleasant weekend I've had.  I haven't even had time to watch the news...nothing about politics, hardly any reading about politics. 

So, you go right ahead and educate us, okay.  Because some of us may not be the "intellectual elite" and it even "may go over" our heads, "the ones who NEED it the most."  Good criticism, Amy.   

"...there weren't any people who think the way some in the discussions here think."

Who exactly are you referring to when you use the word "some?" I have a very foggy brain today.  I need some help with that quote.  Oh, perhaps it went right over my head!

Have a good afternoon.

Shirley

Bren-2007

The documentary sounds really interesting.  I was caught up in a "shoot 'em up" on HBO.  Sorry I missed it.

Amy, I didn't really understand your second paragraph. I've read it twice.  Okay, three times now.  The panel on the show said the discussions were geared toward the "intellectual elite" and would go over the heads of most of the people watching. Did I understand that part correctly?  You followed that up by saying the panelists were primarily well-spoken and evolved in terms of race relations and then wrote -- there weren't any people who think the way some in the discussions here think.

I think you might need to clarify that comment.  Are you referring to our (the "unintellectual" or less well-spoken) actual thoughts on the issue, our educational status in academia as it would affect our beliefs on this issue, or that maybe some of us are just too dumb to grasp the complexities on the issue of race. Or is the inference that some of the "less evolved" might not be able to follow a discussion on a documentary where a descendant of a Black slave and a descendant of the White slave owner with the same name and lineage are reunited.

Talk about elitist b.s.

CherrylH

Amy,

I did not see the program (too cheap for cable), but read an interesting article about it in the Tribune. I hope it will eventually be available on DVD.

I must say that I think your quote about it being too intellectually evolved for the people who need it the most is not just condescending, but mean and nasty, as we say down south. Why are you so angry with people who don't share all of your views. I'm the first to admit that most whites I meet and know don't think about race relations on regular basis. We have all grown in many ways over the years as a result of knowing each other. I would think if you knew someone who you felt needed to know more about blacks or any other race/ethnic group, beratting them is probably not the best way to move them forward. Just my thoughts.

Cherryl

NoH8

I was paraphrasing from the show about what the panelists said were possible drawbacks of the discussion, although I agree with the comments. They used the term intellectual elite several times. Of course, I don't think using the term intellectual elite to those who do not fall into that category, to be the way to begin a conversation, it was an observation from the panelists. I believe they were using the term to speak about scholarly, academic, well read and degreed, people invested in discussing sociology issues- at least that was the way I interpretted it. People talk about Obama appealing more to the intellectual elite and that his why he gets more votes from college and post grad folks and has a more difficult time with less educated folks compared to Hillary. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's smarter than she is, although I believe so, just the appeal and level of the discussion.

Cheryl the documentary is already available on DVD, but the discussion panel isn't part of that, although it will be replayed several times- the discussion panel was as interesting as the documentary-- I'll keep checking for it to be on youtube. You've probably studied about the doll experiment that was done in the 60s with the black and white doll, David Wilson the film maker replicated it with similar results and it was really sad. David and a friend of his asked blacks and whites a question, "What's wrong with blacks?" as a way to try to get honest answers about what people really thing. David asked black people and his white friend,asked whites,hoping to get honest answers. One white guy on the panel answered, "White supremecy." meaning a white dominated society, not guys in white sheets.  One white guy questioned on the street,answered that blacks should thank whites for slavery, because if it weren't for slavery they would be starving in african, of course the panel was appalled. When speaking about reparations the panel agreed that educational reparations and not monetary ones were party of the solution. The panel also agreed with what I was saying on one of the threads about a respect and understanding of black history.

Wilson's greatest insight at the end of the movie was, standing in the area where men, women and childred waited like sardines in a can to board the slave ships is that in actuality, blacks won the war on slavery because they survived and came out stronger and the life that he was living is what his slave ancestors had dreamed of for him and the idea that there might be a black president probably exceeded their expectations.

Shirley, you were one of the people who I thought could really learn from the documentary and even more importantly, the panel discussion afterwards if you allowed yourself to be open to different points of view.I say this as a compliment because I do think that you can be more open minded than you sometimes come across. There are some people here I think would not benefit because they are too invested in unhelpful points of view. When asked, what would you have me do, watching this would be an excellent start. I would be really interested in your feedback if you did watch it. I'm sure the panelist did a much better job of explaining these issues than I ever could. I agreed with 90% of what was said, and they did a much better job than I explaining things.

NoH8

Looks like you can watch most of the documentary online--  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23760280/ and at least part of the discussion.

Anonymous

Shirley, I think you ALREADY are open minded.

Bren-2007

"People talk about Obama appealing more to the intellectual elite and that is why he gets more votes from college and post grad folks and has a more difficult time with less educated folks compared to Hillary. "

I'm curious as to who those "People" are.  Obama appeals more to the intellectual elite than the less educated.  Wow.  I'm a Hillary supporter and have been for 15 years.  I guess that makes me one of the less educated for a very, very long time.

Just more pseudo-intellectual elitism from you Amy. 

And you're suggesting Shirley needs to have her mind opened?  I think not.

CherrylH

Amy, although it's none of my business,but why are you so angry with Shirley? I have never seen anyone so verbally abused on these forums before?

Cherryl

Beesie

"I believe they were using the term (intellectual elite) to speak about scholarly, academic, well read and degreed, people invested in discussing sociology issues- at least that was the way I interpretted it.  People talk about Obama appealing more to the intellectual elite and that is why he gets more votes from college and post grad folks and has a more difficult time with less educated folks compared to Hillary."

Excuse me?  Wow, I agree.  More pseudo-intellectual elitism.

My theory is that Obama is not appealing to the "intellectual elite". Rather he is appealing to those "intellectuals" who are elitist in their belief that they 'know better' how the U.S. should be run. 

He is appealing to those "intellectuals" who identify with him socially, economically and educationally and who fill in the blanks of his empty promises with their own opinions, assuming that he means what they are thinking. 

And he is appealing to those "intellectuals" who feel that they will 'do America good' by electing an African American president.

Obama appeals less to those less educated and of lower income because these voters don't have time for his meaningless promises.  They have real issues and they want clear, direct answers on how these issues will be addressed and solved. 

Obama also appeals less to those educated and well read individuals who, in addition to being interested in discussing "sociology issues", are interested in electing someone who will do the most to solve the practical problems that the U.S. and the world faces today.  

In his statements last week in California, Obama certainly confirmed himself to be an elitist and certainly showed why he doesn't appeal to less educated and lower income voters.  Smart, practical folks that they are, they saw through the facade right from the start.

Anonymous

 I'll take the bait, Amy.

Shirley, you were one of the people who I thought could really learn from the documentary and even more importantly, the panel discussion afterwards if you allowed yourself to be open to different points of view.I say this as a compliment because I do think that you can be more open minded than you sometimes come across. There are some people here I think would not benefit because they are too invested in unhelpful points of view. When asked, what would you have me do, watching this would be an excellent start. I would be really interested in your feedback if you did watch it. I'm sure the panelist did a much better job of explaining these issues than I ever could. I agreed with 90% of what was said, and they did a much better job than I explaining things.

My grandkids are getting ready for their baths.  So, I thought I'd take the opportunity to check in again.

This is not a compliment, Amy.  In fact, I find this very insulting.  I'm sure you meant well. 

Amy, as I have said, you DO NOT KNOW ME!  I am open minded.  Why do you think I'm not?

I have repeated over and over here on this thread that I only finished high school.  So, does that make me one of the ignorant ones?

I have said many times there is still racism, and IMO it will never end.  There are SOME people who will NEVER accept one race or another because of their narrow-mindedness.  I pray that I'll NEVER be one of THOSE people.  And I'm not, Amy.

I know that "Roots" was only a movie.  But it was a moving movie.

I plan to watch it again.  And, perhaps this time I'll be able to watch without closing my eyes, or turning my head when a slave is given a beating.  I have a much stronger stomach.  For people who do not fit into the "intellectual elite," this might be a better way to understand just a little what slaves went through.  And, as far as the "white panelist" who said, "when do we get a white history month?"  I never even thought about such a thing and I am white.

It is a good thing that women on this board LOVE all women here no matter what color they are, no matter in what country they live, what religion or non-religion, what sexual orientation, what political preference, etc.

Amy, I will be 62 years old next month.  I feel that I have evolved in MANY ways from my own life experiences.  When I say we "need to move forward" that in no way is saying that we don't need to talk about race.  What I am saying we do not need hateful rhetoric thrown around.  We can't play the "blame game" anymore.  It was what it was and it won't change.  And today it is what it is and there needs to be more change.  No one here is disputing that.  Change has been made and more needs to come. 

Please give us a little credit, Amy.  I think everyone that has contributed to this discussion IS open-minded.  As I have said several times, I would like to see all people succeed.

When I was in the hospital back in the 80s I had an African American nurse that I dearly loved.  She was one of the two kindest, most wonderful nurses there.  Then there was another African American nurse that I could not stand.  She told an old, old lady to go get her own milk..the lady could barely walk.  There were kind white nurses and not so kind white nurses. 

I need to get off of here and spend that last few minutes before bedtime with my grands.

Shirley 

Anonymous

Here's the excerpt from Yahoo! .... I can't believe he said this and then basically re-stated it, trying to rephrase it to sound better?  Go, Hillary!!!

===========

At issue are comments he made privately at a fundraiser in San Francisco last Sunday. He was trying to explain his troubles winning over some working-class voters, saying they have become frustrated with economic conditions:

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

The comments, posted Friday on The Huffington Post Web site, set off a blast of criticism from Clinton, Republican nominee-in-waiting John McCain and other GOP officials, and drew attention to a potential Obama weakness - the image some have that the Harvard-trained lawyer is arrogant and aloof.

His campaign scrambled to defuse possible damage.

There has been a small "political flare-up because I said something that everybody knows is true, which is that there are a whole bunch of folks in small towns in Pennsylvania, in towns right here in Indiana, in my hometown in Illinois, who are bitter," Obama said Saturday morning at a town hall-style meeting at Ball State University in Muncie, Ind. "They are angry. They feel like they have been left behind. They feel like nobody is paying attention to what they're going through.

"So I said, well you know, when you're bitter you turn to what you can count on. So people, they vote about guns, or they take comfort from their faith and their family and their community. And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming over to this country."

After acknowledging his previous remarks in California could have been better phrased, he added:

"The truth is that these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation, those are important. That's what sustains us. But what is absolutely true is that people don't feel like they are being listened to."

Clinton attacked Obama's remarks much more harshly Saturday than she had the night before, calling them "demeaning." Her aides feel Obama has given them a big opening, pulling the spotlight away from troublesome stories such as former President Clinton's recent revisiting of his wife's misstatements about an airport landing in Bosnia 10 years ago.

Obama is trying to focus attention narrowly on his remarks, arguing there's no question that some working-class families are anxious and bitter. The Clinton campaign is parsing every word, focusing on what Obama said about religion, guns, immigration and trade.

Clinton hit all those themes in lengthy comments to manufacturing workers in Indianapolis.

"The people of faith I know don't 'cling' to religion because they're bitter. People embrace faith not because they are materially poor, but because they are spiritually rich," she said.

"I also disagree with Senator Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration," Clinton added.

"People don't need a president who looks down on them," she said. "They need a president who stands up for them."

McCain's campaign piled on Obama, releasing a statement that also accused him of elitism

Bren-2007

Beesie,

Wow!! You're my new HERO!!

Roctober - We're united my friend!!

Shirley - I'm a high school graduate too.  My dad never thought I'd amount to anything.  My brother, on the other hand, got a free ticket to the best civil engineering school on the west coast.  Guess we had some gender discrimination going on in my family.

Cherryl - Time for that beer?

Shokk - Where are you?

Amy - come on down to the rural south for a few months.  The weathers nice, the people are good. Better yet, send Obama down to my town to live for a few months.  We don't have any kind've elite "anything" in Bassett, VA.

Paulette531

Amy...do you consider yourself to be the intellectual elite? Just curious! LOL!

NoH8

Bin, the people I'm referring to are the pundits who examine why certain candidates do better than others with certain demographics.

Rather he is appealing to those "intellectuals" who are elitist in their belief that they 'know better' how the U.S. should be run.  t appliesto everyone who is running for president and everyone who thinks Bush is dumb and everyone who disapproves of how Bush is running the country. He has a 28% approval rating, that's gotta say something. What you say about electing an african american president is an insult to Obama and his supporters. I don't believe anyone wants to elect an african american president as an exercise and more than people want to elect a woman--  but because there is a more than competent one running, it's an opportunity to vote for a black or a woman, doing so will set a precedent.

Shirley- I am sorry if you didn't see what I said as a positive. I do think that you are fairly open minded and bright enough to not just understand, but enjoy such a discussion. I'm sure if you were coming of age today when going to college is much more common, you would be there and do well. Roots may just have been a movie, but it was based on the fact of Alex Haley's family tree, the dialogue and certain scenes were dramaticized. It was a powerful, society changing miniseries. The white panelist on the show was not suggesting this,but complaining about white people who say that in response to minority education months. I thought you said that as well and I'm sorry if I was remembering something else. I know you've talked about the need to move on and much of this discussion was how to move on and get that message across in an empowering way. That is the part that I thought you'd enjoy hearing about-- ways to move past the resentment on both sides. It's exactly what you say, not playing the blame game while still acknowledging how the past effects the present.  David White's 92 yearold great aunt was the first to tell him that when he asked her opinion on reparations. White moved on from his initial resentment in the beginning of the film toward empowerment and gratefulness.

NoH8

So what about  Hillary being cajoled into drinking a shot? No need for her to worry about appealing to the intellectual elite.

 Bottoms Up: Just Another Saturday Night For Clinton? Shot of Whiskey, Beer and Pizza

CROWN POINT, IND. -- Hillary Clinton mingled with patrons at Bronko's Restaurant and Lounge in northwest Indiana on Saturday night. After a long day of campaigning Clinton was cajoled into taking a shot of Crown Royal whisky, which she sipped at first, but later threw her head back and swallowed it down. That led to a few beers and some pizza.

A pizza-chomping Clinton sat at a table where she talked about the importance of keeping manufacturing jobs in the state. Clinton then called over the mayor of Hammond, Ind., Tom Hammond, saying, "Tom, Tom, come sit down." A gentleman next to Clinton said Hammond was probably at the bar. Clinton joked that "my campaign drives people to drink." Hammond finally approached Clinton, saying "every time I get around you we always start drinking!"

"That's true," Clinton said. "It is Saturday night, though."

At one point Clinton pointed out to her friends that she can't go anywhere without the press right there covering her every move. "The only other thing about having this wonderful time with you is that every bite I take is recorded for posterity," Clinton said as she ate her pizza.

"These two young people are really very, very nice," Clinton said, pointing to me and my ABC colleague. "But their job is to get something on film that looks really weird, so you know I try to accommodate them every so often," Clinton said, winking to us.

Clinton's visit to the small, local eatery was no doubt part of a broader plan to showcase Clinton as a candidate of the people. And although Clinton is no stranger to late night drinks with the press and her staff, she usually prefers red wine or the trendy wheat ale Blue Moon with a slice of orange, not the watery light beer in the glass mug she waved in the air so proudly as the crowd chanted her name.