The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread

CherrylH

Shirley,

I can't get any audio on the links you have posted. Cannot comment on the  hits at Juan Williams,since I don't know what he said. I have long admired his work at NPR.

Cherryl

Anonymous

Hmmm...Cherryl.  I can hear it just fine.  That's strange!

Shirley

saluki

Cherryl--Are you sure your sound isn't on mute.---Links are working fine.

By the way Juan Williams is one of my favorite commentators as well.

ijl

Cherryl,

I love your statement

"There was never a question in my mind,nor my siblings, that our parents wanted more for us than they had for themselves."

That's exactly how I felt about my parents. As I mentioned before we were refugees from ex Soviet Union who came here with $100 and poor English. And that's what I always said on this board , the communtiy can only succced when the parents want the children do better than themselves. That was a motto  for a lot of emigrants who came here in the beginning of the century.

To me a success of a particular group of people is a multi step process. When the first "wave" starts achieving something they make it easier for the others to be accepted.

For example before we came to this country Russian engineers were not well known and thought to be sub par. Our family friend who was a brilliant engineer had to to work as a vallet to make ends meet. He managed to get a job as a a very junior engineer through a guy whose car he parked. In 10 years that he worked there he was promoted multiple times.   When we came 7 years later, my father was able to find a job as an engineer at once but at the minimum wage slightly higher that a bank clerk but he was happy he did not have to park cars to get it In a few years he too was hired by a large company and had a very good career.

In another 10 years my uncle came and he was able to find a decent engineering job with good pay right off the bat because  civil engineering companies already knew about Russian engineers thanks to all the people who started at the bottom

And I think this story would apply to others as well. I think by succeeding in workplace African Americans pave the road for  others from their community and serve as role models.

NoH8

Grace- please don't tell me you're one of those health food junkies---,say it ain't so! You are right that sometimes threads take on a gang mentality. I wish people would understand the difference between saying something about a statement and not take that to mean it's being said about them-- basic healthy communications 101. That makes having a discussion difficult. People can make racially insensitive statements and not have racism in their heart and vice versa. I wish people would realize that before as my grandfather used to say, "getting their bowels in an uproar."

sccruiser

Oh Bren & Shokk,

You are too (two) funny!! Thanks for my laugh for the day.



Cheryl,

I really enjoyed your response and learning from your experience. There is that saying that we can't go back--so true when it comes to returning home. I think giving back can be in whatever community you live in. My work at the local college was part of that community. The president of the college considered the students as having an equal voice in what was important to their learning process. Each of us involved in the diversity work felt we were working on what students' believed was vital to their success in college and working in a global world. We all learned from each other. Some of the women students were very wise, and I know they went on to finish a post-graduate degree and really give back to their community. Our college even hired a number of students into different positions as support staff, as well as adjunct faculty and tenured faculty. I know of severl UCs that do that also. It is very exciting for students to meet other former students who have succeeded in life.



What we face in our area is a low registration of African American males. The female rate is very high, and they are very successful. For the males, there are some issues that prevent them from achieving their goals. Many are brought in for the sports teams and the advisor registers them for easy classes, but they are unable to go to the tutorial sections which they need to succeed in their classes. There are undercurrents of fear among some of the staff and faculty that these black men could be dangerous and they are afraid of them. So, the people who see them every day in class avoid interacting with them. Not a very welcome feeling. These students also come from a school district that is rather poor. They often are passed on through the grades just so the teacher doesn't have to see them again in her/his class the following year. And they are unable to get jobs because many of them come to us unable to read or barely reading at second grade level. That is a difficult and embarrassing situation to put any student in. We do have some lower level reading classes but even those are at 6th grade level. This is why I say that the educational system in this country needs an overhaul. We have high schools where homes are valued at several to many millions of dollars. The schools in these areas collect much more in taxes, and have parents who can afford to do private fundraising to bring in new technology and support the field sports. With parents paying for the expensive equipment, the districts can afford to hire teachers and offer Advanced Placement (AP) classes. The poorer districts struggle to get a few computers for their students, and forget AP classes--they have trouble just hiring teachers to work in the district! There is such inequity in the education of students.



The director of my program has a high school son. He has severe learning disabilities that were diagnosed many years ago. He is a big, black guy. She went to a meeting with his counselor at the HS, and her son was included in the meeting. The counselor said (right in front of her son), well, Mrs.___________ let's face it, your son is in his sophmore year here, and I can tell you right now that he won't graduate from high school. How devastating is that. The counselor (also a person of color) went on to tell her that they might as well put him in shop, remedial english, pull him out for special ed, and pe; with study periods to fill the time. Well, she let this woman have it. Wrote a letter and reported her to the school board. What she said may have been true, but this young man was working his hardest to succeed at what he was doing in his classes but gave up his efforts after that meeting. He dropped out of high school, and now works part time for a man who does home remodel. Perhaps he wouldn't have been able to attend college, but to be shut down like that with 2.5 more years of high school and basically told he was wasting everyone's time is disgusting.



These are the issues that face people of color. I know that if I had a son that was in his position, as a white skinned woman, that the school staff would not talk like that in front of my son. In fact, they would go out of their way to help the man succeed. We do not have equity in our school systems. We have a long way to go before everyone received the same educational opportunities.



I also have a friend who is a counselor in the Monterey Bay area. She works with groups that are struggling to stay in school, and live in communities where violence and shooting deaths are the norm for the young men. She was appalled when she talked to the group about going to college. Even though they would graduate from high school, the norm for the students of color in the district was not to tell them about 4yr college or university; but in addition the idea of attending community college was not mentioned to them either. Instead they were incouraged to look into getting a job, or looking at vocational training programs. How can we have equity in our school systems if every child isn't told of all the opportunities available to them? When some of them went back to question the counselor about community college, that person "grudgingly" gave them the information about 2 year colleges. My friend hears from these students today, and many are enrolled at 4 year colleges, and plan to go on and get a teaching credential. Maybe when the diversity of the teachers in our K-14, and secondary schools is as diversified as the student body, we can achieve some equity. Perhaps this is another example of students of color giving back to their communities. They don't have anyone right now to fight for them, and they have to fight for themselves, or get sucked into the violence that persists in their world.



Some of us are privileged, and can grasp what's in our "invisible knapsack," and others don't even have the knapsack yet or any privileges--and if they do, they have worked awfully hard to earn what many of us are just given, because of the color of our skin.

sccruiser

No, Amy, I try to eat right, but I confess I crave a donut now and then! However, I'm re-training myself to eat dessert that is really, really good--like the Coconut Cream Cake I'm making for my granddaughter's first birthday in 2 weeks. I can't believe it's already 1 year!! She is my salvation and an absolute angel.



It is true, that we sometimes reply with a knee-jerk reaction.



As far as emigrating from another country, it is far easier to assimilate if you are light skinned. Just as my relatives assimilated coming from a Scandinavian country. My maternal grandfather came because his uncle sponsored him. My maternal grandmother came because a Hillsborough family sponsored her and she worked for them as a housekeeper. I doubt that my grandmother would have worked for the wealthy family or been sponsored by them if she came from somewhere else and had dark skin. I don't know that for a fact, but I would guess so. My grandparents lived in SF, my grandfather was a longshoreman for many years. My grandmother raised my mom and her brother. My paternal grandparents came from German background and were 3rd generation in this country, settling in Kentucky and then moving to Indiana. All of them were white, and all of them were able to get jobs and earn a good blue collar living. My parents were able to go to university as the cost was not very much in those days. And I benefitted from their white skin and from my white skin.



Other people who immigrate to the United States are not treated as well. I have seen people be rude to those with accents. I have seen women in stores look angrily at others who are speaking in their native language to each other. I have seen women of color in line be ignored by the person behind the counter as they make eye contact with a white person who is behind and ask if he/she can help her. I have seen security guards follow women/men of color in a store, yet they don't worry about the white person who lifts a bottle of wine and tucks it in his shirt.



Those of us with white skin and families that came as immigrants to this country, were afforded easier access to jobs and education than immigrants of color in this country. History tells us that story. History is not what we have been taught. We need to listen to people of color and their experiences to understand that what we experienced as success in this country, is not necessarily what they experienced in this country.



I agree, that successful African Americans can become role models for their community, but they have to be able to reach those that they want to help first, if they are to succeed in bringing all of the community to the level of success that they experience. That is why I believe that we have much to learn from other cultures, and from the experiences of people of color.

NoH8

Well thank goodness, Grace, you allow yourself to partake in the occasional donut-- I was about to do an internet intervention on you.

Some of us are privileged, and can grasp what's in our "invisible knapsack," and others don't even have the knapsack yet or any privileges--and if they do, they have worked awfully hard to earn what many of us are just given, because of the color of our skin.

I like the way you phrased that. I remember 15 or 20 years back Jodi Foster made a comment about how she probably wouldn't be where is today (or was when she spoke) if she had not been so privileged to be born white. She wasn't saying it that white is better then nonwhite, but that she recognized how much easier life was for her and how many more opportunities, not just acting but in life, she had because of her ethnicity. I think she made the comments accepting the first of her academy awards but it might have been the 2nd one.

sccruiser

Isn't it wonderful when you run across women or men who are willing to admit that having white skin makes it easier to travel and progress in this world? It's hard to admit being white comes with privileges and not make it sound like we are better in some way. We aren't better people, but we can be a better person if we make use of our privileges to help others gain theirs. I admire Jodie Foster, and think she is an admirable actor.



I think Angelina Jolie and others like her are also trying to use their privileges to help others. Especially the starving children in Africa, in countries where there is such civil strife and wars, and our government won't even respond. Guess if oil suddenly spouted up in those areas, Bush would send the troops in in a real hurry. Sad that money and oil is what it takes to get aid in a country--although with Bush's War, I don't doubt that most countries would tell him not to bother. LOL.

NoH8

Speaking of Bush and the war and starving children-- if the olympics were being held in Iran instead of China and it was oil rather than starving adults and children being oppressed in Darfur... would he be so gung ho to attend the opening ceremonies? 

sccruiser

great question Amy. Can't wait to see what the responses are!



The flame arrived in SF today. I'm sure there will be protests, we Californians are great with the protests!



My guess is that Bush would even be more excited to attend the opening ceremonies!! He might make more money for his bud Cheney with free contracts for Halliburton. These guys must all sleep with each other, doncha think?

Anonymous

Grace, I cannot tell you the exact story my sil and daughter told me, but we give money to Africa.  Then the "rich" man of color takes the money for himself and doesn't use it for his people..like fixing roads and many other things.  He lives in a mansion with high priced cars.

When I talk to them again I will ask them to explain further to me. I infuriated me to know that "our" money was not being used for the purpose we sent it.

They have "toured" all over Africa....in the bush and developed countries.  It is a shame that these people have to live the way that they do. 

They were stopped by a cop for doing something wrong while driving.  I won't go into detail.  It's a long, long story.  The cop was trying to bribe them and they wouldn't give in and he said he was going to take them to jail.  They said, take us to jail.  LOL  Anyway, the cop ends up taking them back to his home (actually my sil and dd too him home) and they met his family and had tea together (can't remember if they ate with the family).  The cop wanted my sil to help him come here to the states.

If your interested about their trip through Africa, you can read their website www.taleoftwotravelers.com .  Sometimes my heart would stop.  They have many, many pictures and a few video clips.  They are through with their journey through Africa (just received an email a couple of days ago) and they packing up Betty, the Landrover, and shipping her to England to sale.  They will either come back here or go to New Zealand or Australia where they will write a book about their experience/s.

So, it angers me to know our money is not always used for what it's supposed to be used for.  I admire Oprah for setting up the school for the girls.  They WANT education.  They WANT school materials.  I cannot wait for some of these girls to finish school and hopefully Oprah will have them on her show.

Anonymous

Angelina Jolie is against our troops being pulled out of Iraq.  I'm sure you've read about it, so I won't go into detail.

Shirley

NoH8

How does what angelina jolie want about our military have anything to do with the discussion about race and privilege? Is there a logic to that statement or did you just want to throw that in because there's not enough hate going on in your republican thread?

Anonymous

Because, Amy, you and Grace (and I'm sure others) continue to say "Bush's war."  The problem is whether we like it or not, and I do not like it, we can't leave the Iraqi people.  It would be a disaster.  I want our troops home yesterday.  Jolie was on one of her humanitarian missions.  She's a person of privilege and I would suspect after seeing what she saw she new we just couldn't pack up and leave these people.

Paulette531

FYI Amy and Grace, Bush has designated more aid to Africa than any other president, I am shocked you rwo didn't know this.

Amy, really nasty comment about the Republican thread, you just never know when to quit! And Amy...I believe Grace brought up Angelina Jolie and Shirley responded. 

shokk

Jolie has been there and has seen it for herself and knows it would be a disaster if we just pick up and leave and I want to make a comment about boycotting the Olympics.......President Bush would be out of his mind to boycott the opening ceremonies............8 years ago when a multi country Olympic committee chose to host the 08 summer Olympics in China this same crap was going on including Darfur and the starving people of China which has gotten better in the last few years.......if our athletes are going to walk in the opening ceremonies then our President should be there for THEM.........the best way to "punish" China's government is to beat them in the Olympic games........we have gymnast that this will be their only chance to compete........taking out on young people political policy that they have no control over and have trained for most of their lives for this competition is just not right........this is not their conflict.........Shokk

justanna

I totally agree with Shokk.  What good would Bush accomplish by boycotting the opening ceremonies?  Do those who want it think China would say, all of a sudden, "Wow, we've been really wrong all these years,"?  To me, the heads of the participating countries are at the opening ceremonies to support and show pride in the accomplishments of the athletes who have endeavored to represent his or her country.

And also, I hate to get defensive, but I directly cut and pasted Obama4President's nasty comments regarding a poster (and only out of one of many I could have also used) and pointed out the comments were in no way respectful.  How does that indicate that I've somehow "ganged up"?  I was telling HER how I feel about the way she treats others and how it turns me off of a lot of her ideas I would normally have embraced.  Grace, I generally endorse your responses and don't think I've ever "attacked" you (on any thread).  Obama4President could (and seems to be trying) to learn a lot from you and your thoughtful diplomacy (except when you patronize by assuming others aren't as well-read as you are; but even then, I understood the misunderstanding  Message boards have a way of not representing our true motivations or character and further, we can all read the same materials but interpret the information with our own unique perspectives and experiences).

Anna

Bren-2007

Amy  ... dial it back a bit.  Just the natural flow of conversation .. from starving kids in Africa to Jolie to Iraq to Bush's war ...

Edited to add:  Shirley, just checked out your daughter's website.  It's awesome!!

CherrylH

Hi Grace,

When I was in the 10th grade, I started attending the previous all white high school, which then had two black students, me and Gilbert McGregor. Gilbert was 6'7" and a great basket ball player. I was immediately placed in all remedial classes. So the second day of school, my mother marched into the principal's office and demanded my schedule be changed. At the end of the school the honor students were tapped for the Honor Society. This was done in a school wide assembly. My grade point average at the end of the year was about 97/100. I was not invited to join. Mom was back at school the next day. The principal made an announcement over the PA system that one name had been omitted from the program the previous day. The following year as we began looking at colleges, the guidance counselor suggested I go to a business college, learn secretarial skills. She never helped me in any way to get information about four year colleges. I eventually won an academic scholarship to a very good school, without anyone's help. I graduated high school in 1968. That was the year there was no Valedictorian. The powers that be said no one person had the "highest" grade. So there were six honor graduates. It was  the only year that happened. Forty years later, I'm beginning to let go of the bitterness.

For the first year at that school, at lunch times, both chairs on either side of me would be empty. I learned a lot about self sufficiency that year.

We have made great strides, but we have  miles to go before we sleep.

Cherryl

ijl

Hi Cheryl,

I can relate somewhat to your experience. I am Jewish and grew up in ex Soviet Union.  At the time there was a lot of government approved anti semitism. If one looked Jewish , whatever it meant, they could get insulted on the street or even attacked by some drunkards with no recourse. I was a very good student like you , one of the top 3 in our school and graduated with straight As.

In order to get to college we had to take 4 entrance exams but if you had all As  you only had to take 2. So I applied to a local university not even a prestigious one and right there on application I had to put that I was Jeiwsh since it was stamped on my mandatory passport. There was an unofficial quota for Jews of about 2% of incoming class and it was filled by kids from "rich" families whose parents could either bribe to do some favors for the college. I was not one of these lucky ones. So the day of the test came and it was an oral exam. The material on the test is predefined and we had these special tickets that we would randomly pull out . The tickets would have some questions as well as some problems to solve. I got mine and was so happy since I knew all of the material. But the professor just looked at me , smiled and said that since I probably knew these questions he had some more to ask me and then went ahead and asked me questions on physics from the second year of college. I did not know some of them , so I got an "F" and it was all over pretty fast.
I knew about this , I heard about this but it still hurt so much. I was just hoping but maybe that time they would be fair.

I remember going down the stairs to my father who was waiting for me and tears streaming down my face. Because I knew that there was NOTHING I could do to get in no matter how hard I tried: this was a complete and utter helplessnes. It was also so bad  to meet my non-Jewish classmates who had Bs and Cs and who often copied my homework and tests and who got in. They were shocked to hear that I did not. "But you were so good ! You knew all this stuff, what happened ?". They lived in the different universe than I did then.

So my parents decided to emigrate and come here to give me a chance to get a college degree and escape anti-semitism.  And the rest is history.

Anonymous

Powerful stories.

NoH8

I just don't see Angelina Jolie-- whether or not she's been there, as an expert on war policy. I never suggested that we simply abandon the humanitarian efforts in Iraq, when Obama becomes president I think he should make a strong mea culpa to the UN for the actions of Bush in the invasion and ask for international support for the humanitarian efforts bringing in Iraq's neighbors. There's a difference between war and between helping a country that we broke through that war.

As for the money Bush has spent in africa, which pales in comparison to what's being spent in one month in Iraq, he should be giving more tax than previous presidents-- inflation and the cost of living has gone up.

Anonymous

I'm sorry, I personally cannot afford to pay more tax.  I already work how many months of the year to pay taxes???  I wouldn't trade places with you, Amy, I know you are on disability, but paying more taxes probably won't affect you.  It's much easier on you than me to say that.

I am not even voting here in my city to raise taxes on the lawn they want to put in. I think they should be pea gravel and conserve water instead of putting in something that needs to be mowed, watered, fertilized and continually maintained. 

sccruiser

I'm with you Rocktobermom, No more taxes!! I can't believe how Bush and his cabinet, and Congress for that matter, was able to go from a plus budget to trillions of dollars in debt in 8 years. Oh, and now we borrow money from China to keep the economy afloat?



Perhaps it doesn't matter who gets into office, but I watched Larry King Live one night, and he has Jesse Ventura on (I don't like or dislike the guy) but what he said seems to follow the no more taxes, we pay enough already.



He said, that those of us who have any "wealth" at all to pass on to our children, should know that with the Democrats & Republicans controlling the elections in the government and running our government for years, that our legacy to our children, their inheritance is basically gone. Because when we are gone, they will be paying off this trillions of dollars in debt we now have. That really struck me and makes me very angry. I don't necessarily agree with the "politics" of his statement, but for those of us struggling to survive day to day, and thinking what little we have might make it better for our children and grandchildren, I am pissed off!



And yeah, a lawn? This is Southern California right? Was a desert until they diverted water. There are water rations going on up here in Northern California and the Bay Area--don't they do the same down there? Not attacking, trying to commiserate with you.



We landscaped our yard, and put in drought tolerant plants with a drip water system. The plants now only need water once a week in the summer and the drip system prevents run-off.



Wonder when golf courses will no longer need our precious water--or will they have to bite the dust, so to speak, with global warming. Oh, I digress. Sorry for the rant. ACKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!

NoH8

You don't know my circumstances, RM-- and I wasn't suggesting more taxes-- how about better use of our tax dollars-- if not for Iraq there would be hundreds of billions more, if not for bailing out bear stearns there would be billions more...

sccruiser

Cheryl,

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad your mom stood up to that school and the racist principal. Another example for the history not told in this country. I was moved by your words and experience.

I graduated from hs in 1968 also, here in California. I went to an all white upper middle class school (I'm from working class family) and the year after I graduated the school district decided it was time to get in line with Brown vs The Board of Education before they were sued. Their solution?

To bus black students from East Palo Alto (a rather poor area) and in return bus these cliquee white students to EPA from San Carlos. Well, guess how it went? Not well. Of course, equality was not solved. There were knife fights at both schools, no work was done on race relations or how this change would be handled. All the kids that were forced to be bussed were not happy. The poor school with less of everything stayed poor, and the upper middle class school maintained all the "extras" that came with the areas wealth and higher property taxes. it was a disaster.



My contact with peers my age of color took place when I went to work. I have to say that i was lucky to meet some wonderful friends who "educated" me and put up with my stupid questions. I realized I had been questioning race and what it means in this country from elementary school on. My dad's employees in his janitorial business were black and I couldn't understand why they would never come in the house when I answered the door and always called me Miss Grace, and my dad, Mr. Phil, but my dad called all of them by their first names. That was my first experience with race.



I have had many others, that bring me where I am today.



I am sorry if others on this site seem to think that I am better read than they are, or that I know more than they do. I don't necessarily. I just know what I know. I believe I am meant to share that. Many of the women on this site may have read some of the book suggestions I have made, and maybe they haven't. It's true, what someone else on this site posted recently, that it is hard to know the character or intent of the person's posting.



I am just glad that we can have these conversations and listen to the stories of everyone. There is much complexity in the discourse and the history of this country. With no pun intended--it is never just black and white!

sccruiser

Inna,

Thank you for sharing your story of your experience in Russia. I have friends whose family emigrated from Russia also because they were Jewish and persecuted. I'm sure it was a very difficult, and disappointing experience for you as a young woman to be treated so horribly by that professor. I'm glad you were able to come to the US and take advantage of our higher educational system and earn the degree you deserved. This is another reason I oppose labeling students as college able or not college able. Cheryl's story is another example.



It's important to tell our stories, and share our experiences. We can learn so much from each other if we open our minds (and our hearts).

sccruiser

Bush may have given more in aid to Africa than any other president, but I didn't know that. Thanks Paulette for pointing that out to me. I learn something new every day--actually I learn a lot here everyday.



My point wasn't necessarily aid to Africa, and maybe I was unclear in my statement. I believe that Bush's War was about oil, power, and money.



The civil wars in Africa, may get aid, after the international news media and the "hollywood types" point this out, but they will never get the troop support that Iraq is getting from us. There is no oil, power or money to be gotten from these poorer countries. Bush and Congress have let these wars go on for too long in Africa. If we are the wonderful, powerful, father of all countries in this world, we should have done more by now--instead of blatantly, and with lies, invade a country and destroy a great deal of its infrastructure.



I want the troops home and on US soil. I believe that because of Bush's folly of war we are now going to have to stay there to help maintain a "democratic government" that he assumes all countries in the world want--hope ours is not the only example these countries use in defining democratic for themselves. We have thrust ourselves in there assuming we know what is best for others. We will have corporations and businesses that make oodles of millions of dollars in rebuilding infrastructure in there, with peacekeeping troops. For how long? As long as it takes? And how do we pay for this? Raise taxes? Borrow more from China until they own us? this is a disaster. This is what is dividing our country. When 2/3rds of our general population don't want this war to go on for another day, these government officials better start listening. I hope every person in this country who is against this war and wants it to end, votes for the democratic candidate no matter what. And if 4 years from now, that person doesn't get this war ended, we find a candidate who will! I don't care what party they are from--I just want it ended. It was started on lies, and we are continuing to be lied to. If Clinton could have been brought up on treason charges, then I am appalled that Bush hasn't already been brought up, as well as Cheney. How the American people can have been duped for so long, is beyond my ken!

sccruiser

Shirley,

Thanks for sharing your sil and daughter's website. I enjoyed it immensely. I too, would have been angry to know that my money was not going to where it was supposed to, or used for purpose it was sent. Isn't it amazing how people can just take and not think about who needs it or who it belongs to.



It even happens in this country. We have to be so careful who we donate to, as some use names similar to well known non-profits, and some fundraisers take almost all the $$ and leave little forthe non-profits, or the administrative salaries are so high in the non-profits. We check every request for donations before we send anything in this country.



guess you have to do it for Africa also. Perhaps that's why people give to CARE and Unicef, and others. At least you know that some aid will reach were it needs to be!