The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread

Obama4President:

Do you find it ironic that you entitled this "The Brand New Respectful Campaign Thread"?

"This is the peaceful political discussion thread- not one where we bait each other."

"BTW-- can we try to remember that this is the respectful campaign thread?"

"I can definitely see why she assumes that...isn't well read on race by her comments and refusal to even see comments in context. Her rigid thinking is typical of someone views Wright's comments without historical context. I doubt she ever heard of Tuskegee before or knows how it is possible that anyone could believe that AIDS was created. It's apparent she passed judgment w/o hearing or reading th entire speech. None of that means she has to agree with Wright, just to come to an intelligent decision based on the totality of information."

"...-- it's sometimes hard to know how you mean things, since you often sling snide remarks and generalize from specific examples to think I mean things that I didn't say. If I misinterpretted what you said, I apologize, although from the tone of your response I believe that there was no misinterpretation and it was a sarcastic, not a genuine remark."

"You are one of the most judgmental people on here. I never said that you were worse than a skinhead, what I said is the type of racial bias like yours, that is covert and sometimes not even known to the individual can be worse than the type of racism from a skin head, because that type racism is so overt and in your face you can't miss it. Covert bias can easily be given an excuses like-- I'm not prejudice against muslims, I just wouldn't sit next to them on an airplane. I'm not prejudice against blacks, I just wouldn't want my child marrying one of them.  Again, your concrete thinking goes isn't seeing the nuances of the discussion."

"...you are ignorant if you thought I meant that having a cultural identity means no one else can partake and enjoy in such foods or activities. I think you're purposely finding reasons to be angry and take things personally, unless this is just how you are offline as well.  I never said I couldn't be sarcastic-- I know I can be. I often feel like I'm talking to an 8 year old when trying to discuss things with you-- like you hold your hands over your ears and say, 'i can't hear you....'"

"Or he started getting alzheimer's sooner than anyone realized

I've seen people joking about a lot of things on these political threads, including slavery which I find abhorrent. I'm the first one to tell and laugh at breast cancer jokes."

"that was you who made the slavery joke-- although you didn't consider it a joke."

You have continually bashed another poster (and the other one you call "mean"), labeling her not well-read, ignorant, and "insinuated" REPEATEDLY that she is a racist.  I personally do not find this thread respectful in the least.  I see it as an elitist attempt to bully a few people who do not agree with your beliefs.  I'm saying this as someone who actually does agree with much of your politics.  However, I have to admit that you have managed to turn me off of some of it with the heavy-handed, intolerant and disrespectful ways you have treated others on this thread and on the "less respectful one".  I thought you were supposed to be some sort of psychologist.  Wouldn't someone with those qualifications be a little more empathetic and sensitive, (not to mention manage to have better communication skills?)  Everyone here has respectfully listened to you; I don't understand why you can't do the same.

Just my opinion.

Anna  

 Amy gracefully TRIES to explain herself.

"Inna- I didn't joke about McCain having alzheimers, I

wondered whether the slips in his memory were merely slips, or a sign of something more-- because Reagan had alzheimers before he left office. I didn't say I thought he had alzheimers, but that having some sort of dimensia at 72 would not be out of the realm of possibilities. I don't even think he does have dimensia, it was only one of the list of possibilities for why he made several "misstatements" while in Iraq."

Too funny, Amy.  Good joke!

McCain obviously has good genes.  Look at his old mom!

So, I guess we could say Obama lost his senses SINCE he cannot remember Wright's (his FORMER minister and spiritual leader who had to step down from his part in the campaign and who was disinvited to be on the stage with Obama when he announced his run for prez because Wright was "spirited" (controversial or something like that.  And Obama lost his senses when he said he was a PROFESSOR instead of a lecturer and more...) sermons.  I could name more senseless gaffes however, I digress.

PS..no, Amy, you never joke.  You do not know how.

Amy, a wink!?  Yep, you were joking or making fun of McCain's age. 

Or he started getting alzheimer's sooner than anyone realized

Well, and Clinton won't bring up Wright, because there are pictures of her and Bill shaking Wright's hands at some function. So, everyone forgets, and some remember wrong. Will she slip up and make another mistake about what is real and what is not?



I did not say that you were feeling attacked by Amy, Inna. I said all of you were attacking her. Yes, I'm familiar with your example. You seem to be posting it on all the threads. And guess what, it looks like Amy has decided to ignore your post. Guess you'll have to ask someone else.



Oh wait, I do believe she gave you a whole list Obama worked on. Perhaps you should check more than the first two to get an answer.



She wasn't "critiquing you," and I didn't see her say you don't understand democratic values. I think you are misunderstanding what she said. She is merely pointing out that you have stated you would not vote for him and that you lean more towards republicans. That's not a negative. She did answer your question, that you consider appropriate, honestly. Gave you a nice long list of work he did.



Shirley,

Don't know where the joke is. Guess it would mean reading back over the past 18 pages on this thread, and the 40something on the other to come up with it. For me, reading once and answering posts is as much as I have time to do.



And yes, over and over we have heard about Wright, and the professor vs lecturer. It's old news, and by the time the convention is over, it will be very old news.

Geez, I may as well go back to the Wagon Circle thread.

Grace, I'm going back to something you wrote a few paragraphs ago.  You asked if the article you posted was too long.  Well, for my ADD brain, I could only chunk-in a paragraph or two at a time. So, for me, it's much easier to hone in on a paragraph or two to really appreciate what is being written.  But the others don't seem to have a problem, so I'll do my best and respond to the parts that sink in.

Thanks for the info on Hillary's campaign. Now, I better go see what she's up to.  I hate NAFTA.

Gotta run,

Bren

Edited: deleted para on dementia.

Hi Bren,

Thanks for answering my question. I often have the same problem so end up reading posts twice before responding. My problem is "medicine brain," as my mom calls it. On 4-5 pain meds daily, so sometimes takes me a while to catch up. and typing is a real fun thing when they kick in. And to think I could type 90 wpm w/0 mistakes in the good old days before bc (and I don't mean before Christ). LOL

Grace,

I want to thank you for your post of a few days ago. I was down for the count with a nasty bug over the weekend.

No,  you are not responsible or to be held accountable for  the views of your friends. That's not a realistic position to put anyone in (even presidential candidates). The heart of my question was,since it's agreed that wanting the best for one's family and working hard to get ahead is universal, what do your friends consider "selling out?" I'm not  trying to be flippant, I'm truly serious. This is a phrase I've heard thrown aboout for nearly 40 years with no clear definition. It seems that if I don't agree with a position taken by another black person, I can denigrate them by calling them an "oreo," rather than just disagreeing with them. What's the  point??

I had never heard of Tim Wise until you started posting his writings. I am very interested in other things he wrote and will pay closer attention to his writing.

I agree with Bren that the brief respite the food talk gave this thread was needed. I won't say anything else foodwise, except to Sheri: I promise not to hold it against you, but I can't believe you ruined one of the most perfect foods (grits) with cream and sugar!!!! I still like you, Sheri,  honestly!!

Cherryl

Cheryl,

Thank you for responding to my post. I understand what you are saying. I agree that "oreo" is not a good descriptor for anybody. I too used to eat them until I realized they were made of so many non-organic, chemical stuff I gave them up. Sometimes I still miss them. And the food stuff, is fine, I was just being crabby I think (I'm on prednisone right now, so my sense of humor is diminished some). In fact, I had just about the best southern meal I can remember a few years ago when I went with the director (African American woman) of my department to St. Louis MO. We went to what she called the "ghetto," and found a little mom/pop take out place to eat. The food was fabulous. It was called "Marion's" and I stuffed myself. Interesting side note. My friend kept getting dirty looks from all the customers who came in(they were all African American). She said, oh, they don't mean much by it, there just mad cuz I brought this white woman here! And her experience in St. Louis was this: I wanted to go to some antique shops and she went with me. We decided to get some lunch and a shopkeeper recommended a house that had been converted to a luncheon place--"A lovely spot for you ladies to have lunch here in St. Louis." So we went. My friend was the only African American in the place. The waitress never told us about the specials, although she did to the tables around us. She never asked how our food was, or if we wanted coffee or dessert; but she did ask those around us. She cleared the plates off the other tables, but not ours. She finally brought us the check. I paid the bill, but didn't leave a tip. It was covert, but it was racism. I am mad at myself that I didn't tell her off. But I was raised to be a lady, and to make a fuss or speak up was not how my mom taught me to behave. Today I would have no trouble flippin' that lady the bird.



I'm going to try and answer your question about selling out. How do I explain this. An example would be Ward Connorly (a regent at the UC system and African American), who joined the group that wanted to end Affirmative Action. His claim was that what needed to be done, for African Americans and other groups, had been accomplished. The view my friends have is that he benefitted from AA, and he should see that others like him benefitted from AA in the years to come. In other words, he moved into a privileged position, but wasn't willing to use his privilege to help others. My friends see this as selling out to your community.



Colin Powell, would be another example. He attained a position of privilege also. My friends believe that he was in a position to make things better for others. When he lied to the UN, they were not surprised because they believed that he had to do that to remain in the position he was in. The privileged postion was "granted" to him by a white man, Bush. When Powell realized he had made a huge mistake, and saw this as an act against his countrymen, he owned up to it, and lost his position of power. He did not sell out, but in the process lost the protection by the white man of his position. However I have the greatest respect for Colin Powell for owning his mistake and I feel badly that he took the fall for some white guy.



So, I think what all this means, is that when there is privilege involved, we need to use that privilege to help others.



As a white woman, I have privileges that I did not have to earn or ask for. I was given them, simply by the color of my skin. While I stand next to white men in order of privilege, they are the ones that grant those privileges to me in a sense. I have a lot of freedom, more than many people of color. I didn't have to do anything to get them and I most likely won't get them taken away. So, I need to use those privileges to help others get privileges and benefits. When I first heard this, I said I wanted to just give them away. That it wasn't fair I had more than others. I was told that I can't give them away. I need to use them. Okay, so how do I do that?



Well, what I learned is that I have a voice. I can speak. At work I would sit on committees where I could speak up about an issue that was affecting people of color on the campus. I was listened to. I was heard. If a person of color on the committee brought up the same issue before I did, they were often ignored or passed over. At one meeting, the director in my department wanted to address a comment another colleague had made, and the president of the group (a white man) called on someone else who had raised his hand after the director. Rather than the director calling the president on it, I did. She got to speak, and I got the nasty look from some of the whites. That's okay. The whole point was to use my privilege.



It doesn't always work out that way. So those of us who chose to use our privilege to help others (and when I say help others, I mean to do what they say they need to be done by me) it can get ugly and lonely. People who you thought were your friends, suddenly don't really want to sit next to you or be seen with you. Because now I'm standing in a different space, I'm not standing next to that white guy over there.



I often sat on hiring committees. As a white woman, I was seen as someone who would maintain the status quo. There was a lot of racially charged incidents going on when I first started working as an AA rep on hiring committees. Much of it was covert. When the whites thought I was with them, they would say whatever they felt like saying. I was like the fly on the wall. I managed to stop a number of committees from going forward by listening to this covert racism and reporting it to employment services. One director was fired for his comments to not only committee members, but comments to applicants. Now, I could have sat and done nothing at all, and nothing would have happened to me. But to me that would also be a sell out.



I agree with you, that it is flippant to call someone a name, rather than just disagreeing with them. I don't like name calling, or putting people in boxes with labels. But we seem to be good at doing that in this country.



I think that Bill Cosby and Larry Elder, and others that come across as conservative have lost something in the process. I think it's fine to suggest ways to solve problems, but to me personally they seem removed from the communities they came from. It's like they are separate now, and not like the others.

My friends believe that whatever color you are, and no matter who it is, they are in your group. And you have to recognize they are in your group. We just get caught up in the right and wrong of things. I try to look at the big picture. I haven't read a lot of Larry Elder, but what I do know mostly comes from TV appearances. So, my impression is that he is "better than the others." And to me, we need to remember to be humble and kind. We need to remember how we want to be treated, and treat others that way. And we aren't real good at doing that in this country, or around the world.



I don't know if selling out is a good term. Maybe turning one's back on the members of your communities is better. Turning away. Closing your eyes to what's real and what needs to be helped.



Condi Rice will go back to Stanford Univ. to teach. What will she teach? Will she use her privilege to make life better for others in her group? Maybe she doesn't believe she has to do that. Maybe some of us don't believe she has to do that. But if everyone who makes it, turns away, who will be there to help the others in the community make it also? After all, don't many of our cultures believe that everyone in the community is responsible for bringing everyone else in the community up--so all are equal?

That's what I learned from a professor who visited my university and spoke about community. She had made it. She was a full professor at a northwestern university. She said those words, and I've never forgotten them.



I hope this answers your question. Not sure I was able to convey what I learned from my friends, and visiting professors.



grace

Would we call it "selling out" if Hillary doesn't use her power for the benefit of women? What if she does what's best for the state of New York (her current job)?

Let's say, like here in So Cal, women are not on the SWAT team. There is talk to lower the standards.  Should the women Senators get involved and push for it just because it would give women a place on SWAT? Or should they stay out of it and let the LAPD decide?   

Well Grace Dr. Rice just may go back to Stanford and teach one of the seven languages she is fluent in or maybe Russian history but my bet is she will be the first woman to become Commissioner of the NFL.........Shokk

Bren,

Shouldn't you be watching the game and supporting Memphis!!!!!!

Cherryl

I think each of us may have a calling.  We may work in the "white" ghetto.  Or we may work for the both races in soup kitchens or volunteer at a homeless shelter.  So, we the privileged, can also give back to everyone who needs help no matter what race or religion or no religion.

I find it insulting to say that Larry Elder and Bill Cosby has done anything to "sell out" because of their high standard.  They, men of color, want others to have the same privilege they have.  No, not everyone will reach the wealth of these men, but that's not the point.  They want young people of their color to learn to speak well.  To get a good education.  To make a decent living for their families.  Just as I would want whites to do the same.  I want that for all races.  It THRILLS me to see one succeed especially those who are the underprivileged NO MATTER what race.

We have privileges in this country for which we can grasp if we want it or if someone's there to give you a nudge.  That's one reason I think the home is so important.  And sad as it is not everyone, White or Black or Hispanic, has someone to "nudge" them.  Same is true with other races.

Why not encourage young African Americans to go after the best education?  And why not teach African Americans to stop using slurs against their own people?  And yeah, whites do it too. 

Watch the below.  Don't click it off just because this is from Fox News.  Listen.  And then tell me what's wrong with this conversation.  Juan Williams is not a conservative if my memory

serves me correctly.  He is an educated man just as Larry Elder is.  And just as Bill Cosby is.  I believe they want the best for their youth.

Juan Williams slams CNN and MSNBC for their O'Reilly Smear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJhe00QSlBI

Juan Williams reacts to being called "The Happy Negro" on CNN 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KDzP0-hP8Q&feature=related

Shirley, thank you for your kind words. I don't know how much wisdom I have, just what is in my heart. I look forward to seeing these links. I adore Juan Williams.

Cherryl