I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

BinVA...best wishes to both you and your friend. 

I used to lurk here a year ago when I was recovering from my op, and then the thread seemed to disappear for months, only to reappear on my list of active threads a few weeks ago. I 'know' a few of you from another thread and really enjoy your discussions, both political and not.  I'm finding all the talk of Obama/Romney very interesting, and I must say that from a European perspective I think that many people on this side of the Atlantic would be pretty worried if Romney were elected US president.  We are still suffering the after-effects of the last Republican president's (and UK PM's) policies in Iraq, and I really don't think we need that kind of bravado again, especially with the extremely sensitive and complex situations in Syria, Afghanistan, etc.. Hope you don't think I'm intruding! 

Hello Maria, nice to see you here! I think you'll like joining in the conversation.

Your perspective is similar to the sentiments I've heard from other friends who live overseas.

Thanks for kind welcome!  River rat, yes a horrific image, but on the other hand it could also upset the undecided and create the opposite effect to that intended.

Maria, welcome -- I lurk on the other thread (I used to post way back when under a different name).  It's good to see you found your way here!

L

Beesie: There is a HUGE difference between saying something you KNOW is not true (a lie) and not being able to meet your goals. Romney, and especially Ryan, have peed on the facts just in the statements they make. Nothing to do with policy promises.

Let's welcome all posters and views here. Barbara is someone I consider a friend. We shouldn't practice intolerance here - the only thing I will not tolerate are bullies, and deleters and others who want to shut us down - and that includes goats! Neither Barbara nor Beesie fit that description in the least.

If you want to blame anyone for Guantanamo not closing as soon as hoped, you might look at Canada's Conservative governement who put every block possible in place to avoid bringing back to Canada the one Canadian there. he (the prisoner, not our PM) was convicted only by the powers that be there even though he was a wounded 15 year old when captured. In the last couple of weeks there were no more stall tactics left and Omar Khadr came back to maximum security prison in Canada.

I'm not very good at making long posts with facts and statistics, so I don't do it. I do enjoy reading others' posts, however. 

What I really like and appreciate about this thread, and the people on it, is that when we are disappointed by something our candidates do or don't do....we express that disappointment and talk about it. When we're unsure about something, we talk about that as well. 

In other places, it seems to be all rah-rah and nothing is ever questioned, and disappointment is certainly never expressed. It's as if the candidates on the other side are infallible. WE know our candidates are not infallible.

That's why I like it here, and so appreciate all of you.

Mary 

Obama wanted to close Guantanamo but the issue arose over where to put those prisoners. Unfortunately, in creating Guantanamo Bush-Cheney put us in a terrible legal and human rights quagmire from which it will take many years to recover.

Obama would also have been able to meet many more of his first-term goals if republicans in congress hadn't declared their outright lack of patriotism by indicating they hoped he would fail.

Obama broke a significant promise in an historic way: he said he hoped to have health care reform by the end of his first term. He had it done closer to the beginning.

Big, big difference to LIE versus to not be able to fulfil one's agenda on time.

Oh, and unemployment? It would likely be lower now if the republicans had not prevented the stimulus package from being as big as it needed to - Obama wanted twice the cash, and that likely would have spurred growth more. But republicans (and European Union officials) seem to forget the lessons taught by the great Keynes and by the Great Depression: in times of slump, the only way out is for the only cash cow available - the government- to increase spending. Government spending will create jobs and grow revenues. Fiscal prudence is a laudable long term goal, but it is the worst pill in times of economic crunch.

It also doesn't help when republicans refuse to consider taxes increases as part of a fiscal prudence package - and when they hold hostage the country they claim to love by threatening to oppose an increase in the debt ceiling. I think some republicans do it out of bad policy - they just have bad ideas, period, or they are not very sophisticated thinkers. But others do it because they just don't want the black man to succeed.

So when we're talking about goals not met, let's remember that this country is ruled by three co-equal branches of government, and that the president cannot do it all himself.

Remember Dumbya's promise (laudable as it was): every child should reads by nine? Not yet! Including some in congress.

Finally woke up!

Saturday Brain Droppings of indifferent quality.

Maria - welcome! You are no intruding at all. Sit down and have some coffee.

HL: I can't take the Republican posturing over Syria very seriously because it is so baseless. We all know that issues like US security abroad are long-term, non-political administrative matters that continue from administration to administration. I suppose right wing fanatics don't understand what it is to be a civil servant whose master is the flag and not the political talking point.

Maybe they have a problem understanding this because the Bush administration tried, for 8 years, to ideologize and politicize every nook and cranny of the United States so as to render the country's reputation useless in matters as varied as science, weaponry and space. We are still dealing with that current which does not think facts matter.

I mean, really: if you can stand up as vice presidential candidate and say, on the record, that you never asked for stimulus money when in fact you requested it in TWO letters - then you are living in a country that has turned it's back on common decency. A country where you can torture and call it "enhanced interrogation techniques," where you can attempt to partially privatize Social Security and call it "not privatization - personalization" - is a country where I am not surprised that people make it up about Benghazi.

Obama is responsible for what he is responsble. But some presidents do so much harm that their terrible legacy extends way beyond their tenure. Bush broke so many taboos that it is hard to undo them in four years. The taboo against human rights violations, the taboo against non-scientific facts ("Polar bears are not endangered"; "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction"), the taboo against politicizing civil service. It is taboo for Katrina to leave New Orleans the way it did and for a government to be unprepared in the face of disaster when we are the world's richest country. Bush and Cheney almost destroyed this country, and the fact that we are having to argue on such a basic level where the facts should not be in dispute is a sad consequence of that.

Four more years of that would leave us asking UNICEF for money for our children.

The Republican party is moribund. It is out of ideas. As long as it continues to parley liars, flip floppers and madmen like Rush Limbaugh as politicians and mouthpieces it will not win a presidency. Luckily, there are enough people in this country who see that.

Great post, Athena!

Belinda:

Like.

Athena, HL, Kam: well said.

All I can say, Athena, is that I truly hope you are correct.  I will admit, however, that when I read some of the statements that people swallow as fact, simply because it is convenient to their desired world view, I believe that idiocy and unreasoning hatred are on the ascendency in this country.