I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Belinda44

Good article, Sunflowers re: the myth that Mitt is moderate.  I guess that's why the Real Housewives of the Tea Party embrace him.

Belinda44

Interesting..............

Belinda44

Thank you, Canada!

Belinda44

So sad!!!

Belinda44

Belinda44

Belinda44

alexandria58

I have to respond to Beesie's comments, even though I know I should ignore.

First: whether Romney lies, which Beesie calls clarifying his positions.  Look at what's he's done.  Just last week, after stating he would sign a personhood amendment, he stated that that there was no anti-abortion legislation on his agenda.  then his spokesperson came out and sai, yes, he will support anti-abortion legislation.  Pre-existing conditions.  Suddenly in his debate he has a plan for medical coverage of pre-existing conditions.  He said it several times - except he doesn't.  Again. his spokesman walked it back.   He doesn't have a plan to cut taxes by 5 trillion.  Again, he said it several times.  He didn't have a spokesman walk it back, but he continues to advocate for the plan to cut taxes 20 percent.

He's noty clarifying positions.  He's not misspeaking.  He is saying whatever he thinks will sell a particular audience.  Tax cuts for the rich aren't popular, so if you're on a debate with millions watching, deny it.  Then support it in front of your base.  Insurance coverage for people with pre-existing conditions is popular.  Pretend you support it.  I think the debate performance was calculated with the thought that low informatiom voters wlll hear what he says on the debate and not catch or notice the walk-backs or the corrections.  He's winking at the Republican base as he does this, too.

There is no equating Romney's calculating and cynical switching of positions to Obama not being able to fulfill certain promises due to changing circumstances or circumstances beyond his control.

Others have addressed Libya sufficiently.  I won't do that here.

But Beesie's comment on the obstruction of Obama's agenda by the Republicans needs to be addressed.  She says that obstruction is what the parties do.  Nope.  What the Republicans did to Obama is unprecedented.  Give me an instance of Democrats getting together on the eve of a Republican president's inauguration to make it a priority that he have no legislative success so that they can prevent his re-election.  It has NEVER happened before.  The number of fillibusters is unprecendented.  The absolute unwillingness to work with the president even on plans that the Republicans formerly supported is unprecendented.  If we progressives had any beef with Obama in those first years, it was that he tried too hard to get Republicans on board, tailored legislation for Republican votes, and they gave him the back of their hand. And in direct contrast, the Dems were pretty pissed off with the Bush election, yet they worked with him on no-child left behind, on taxes, and when we were attacked on 9-11, the Dems came together behind Bush. 

Finally, on Biden's demeanor.  When Romney drove a tank over Jim Lehrer, completely changed his postions and then smirked his way through his debate, he was called masterful.  When Biden laughed at Ryan's twisting of truths, the obsfucation of Ryan's speeches - his hypocrocy over the stimulus, his inabililty to give specifics on the tax plan, the Republicans call him disrespectful.  Well, if he hadn't interrupted Ryan, Ryan would have talked the entire time.  How else are you supposed to react to lies, anyway?

I do agree with my sisters that Beesie's comments belonged on Mirror.  Even if I sometimes peek over there, I do not post.  But since her comments were posted here, I felt that a reply was needed. 

River_Rat

Belinda, thank you for your graphs. I think it is especially instructive to see how many times the Republicans have filibustered during Obama's term. If that doesn't show how different things are this time then I don't know what does.

To some others, it strikes me as odd that Romney can come out all hopped up spouting lies and merely be called aggressive. But then Joe comes out and is just Joe and he's called all sorts of names. Perhaps looking at some of those graphics that Belinda posted might be instructive to you. But then again if you simply stopped in to lecture and impart us with your great intelligence but not to actually converse with us I guess it won't. Conversation welcome - lectures not so much.

Belinda44

Btw, Lewing and HappyLibby, thank you for your calm, articulate and intelligent perspectives.

alexandria58

Belinda - the graphs are great!

IllinoisLady

Whoa !!!  A bit of shock to the system this a.m.  I don't know all the friendships involved so can't really comment, but find it sad.  The one thing I can say is that if you are looking you can find any reason to "make " something dis-respectful.  For instance I feel very dis-respected that I am told either very shaded items, or proven lies by a candidate who wants to be my President and Vice President.  What they have indicated in a somewhat straightforward way is that they will be doing all in their power to remove a lot of my rights. 

The deal is if you wish my respect and considerations you will have to earn it by being candid about what you are going to do and how you are going to do it.  So Romney and Ryan still have some time.  Let them come forward and share  those things. 

I feel like it has come down to as long as it goes my way.  Perhaps no one likes that some one is finally getting down to the bare bones issues of truth and fiction.   I think we will see more of that in the coming debates.  I would just have to say, if your not telling the absolute truth, expect things not to go well. 

The truth will set you free. 

Jackie

alexandria58

Enjoyful: Give me got two posts here - I guess two donations are in order.  I'll have to go with Obama and the Democratic party.  After the election, I'll donate to food pantries for those unwilling to take responsibility for their lives....

Belinda44

Great comments you all are making this morning!

gardengumby

since Biden has been called on the carpet right here at home for "smirking" too much.  I'm going to say that if he had pointed out the many inaccuracies contained within Ryan's statements without smiling, then people would have said he was too angry.  If you're going to call someone out, then you'd better do it with a friendly manner, as otherwise you simply come across as angry and even abusive.  I thought Biden handled the whole situation very well.

As for "throwing Hillary under the bus" comments that I have seen bandied about.  No one that I've seen has done that in the slightest.  The only people anywhere that I've seen making comments to that effect are people at Fox News and on the mirror thread here (until of course it was posted above).  I've certainly not seen any other comments to that effect.  The fact is that an investigation is still on-going.  Were mistakes made?  Yes, there were.  Were some made by Hillary?  I don't know.  Were some made by Obama or Biden?  I don't know that either.  However, they (the President and Vice President) were ultimately in charge, so in the end, wherever the mistakes were, they will be laid upon their door.  That's the way things generally work.  Was 9/11 Bush's fault?  Not really, but in the end, the blame was laid at his door, as he was the man in charge.  It's easy in retrospect to say "he should have done this or that or the other thing".  But there have been many instances of attacks on Americans (remember the Marine barracks in Lebanon when Reagan was President, when 200+ were killed?)  Generally speaking, when Americans die overseas there is a bit more - shall I say forgiveness - given to the President.  Obviously that will not happen with this President at this time - especially given the fact that the election is less than a month away.

As for the "working across the aisle" bit of the attacks on Obama.  I have never seen anyone try as hard as he did to compromise.  Compromise was not available.  Rebuplicans in Congress - especially in the House - were intent upon making Obama a one term President, and they have been perfectly happy to see the rest of America suffer while working toward that goal. 

Belinda44

"What could have possessed the Romney campaign to allow its No. 2 to recite a canned story about an auto accident-in a debate with a man who lost his wife and daughter to such a tragedy? Michael Daly on a moment even Palin could have avoided."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/13/the-car-crash-paul-ryan-should-have-avoided-at-the-vp-debate.html

rosemary-b

Wow. I appreciate that people with other views come here. I like an exchange of ideas. But phrases like "shame on you" do not advance the discussion.

I also wonder why it was okay for Romney to beat up on Obama but not for Biden to beat up on Ryan.

I respect both Barbara and Beesie, even when I disagree with them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the reason there were two threads that deal with politics is that feelings run so high. I hope if we venture into each other's threads it is with facts and respect.

Belinda44

Good article from the NYT/International Herald Tribune:

"Focus Was on Tripoli in Requests for Security in Libya"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/world/africa/cables-show-requests-to-state-dept-for-security-in-libya-were-focused-on-tripoli.html?ref=global-home&gwh=C1931D2F2985F55EAB8477288BB812FA

RetiredLibby

Belinda, thanks for your graphs!  There is another set of figures that shows that the President actually had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate for a grand total of 24 working days in the first two years of his administration -- I will look for it and post here.  It is heavily sourced, including the Senate legistlative calendar.  Remember -- Al Franken's swearing in was delayed by months because of Norm Coleman's intransigence, Teddy Kennedy and Robert Byrd were ill a good portion of the time, there was delay in appointing someone to fill the President's Senate seat, and Joe Lieberman caucuses only nominally with the Democrats, since he is officially an independent. 

And yes, Belinda, my stomach clenched at the appalling and blatant attempt to upset the Vice President by recounting a story so similar to his own tragic loss of his wife and infant daughter.  I was beyond disgusted -- there are thousands of stories to use ... why use that one if not in a blatant attempt to hurt Joe Biden.

And thanks GG, RR, Alexandria and Illinois Lady for chiming in.  I left out a bunch of stuff in my posts because I only had so much to type -- and it would fall on blind eyes anyway.  In the vernacular, "Haters gonna hate," and no amount of reasoning or facts will change that.

Glad my friends are still here.

L

pip57

It isn't the lies you tell, it's how well you tell them.

ananda8

With all the criticism of Obama and Biden on the other thread and in drive by posts, I have yet to see any posts that articulate what the Republicans would do if elected.  Romney will increase jobs by 12,000,000.  How?  Romney will cut the deficit by closing loop holes. Which ones? Romney will stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons.  What would he specifically do differently?

The ladies on the other thread and the drive bys wont talk policy because they can't.  Romney/Ryan refuse to give details on what loop holes would be cut, how they would prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons, how they will increase jobs.  The platform is silent on these issues as well.

Here is Obama's record from PolitiFact.org. 74% of his promises are either fulfilled or in the works.  I am including those promises that were compromised because compromise in politics is unavoidable.  The fact that he has been able to get so much of his agenda through Congress proves that he does work with Republicans in spite of their protests to the contrary. Here is the link with details. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

Promises kept................38%

Promises compromised....15%

Promises in the works......21%

Promises not rated...........2%

Promises broken..............17%

RetiredLibby

Thanks, Notself!  Of course, there will be people who won't believe those "factcheckers," because they don't need to run their campaigns according to the "factcheckers" (i.e., facts).  But I like the link!

Still looking for the days he actually had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.  Will post when I find. 

L

alexandria58

HL, Not, Belinda, GG, River, Sun - it's so good to read logic and sense.  Facts actually do matter.

Good to be among friends.

Bren-2007

Good Morning Friends!

Going off topic for a brief moment. 

I am on my way back down to North Carolina to the hospital to be with Brenda.  They still have not got her pain under control and she is not being released yet.

They are going to try switching her from Oxy to Morphine and see if that helps.  Once they get the morphine dosage straightened out, I think they will let her go home.

They can't do radiation as her mets are too widespread on her spine.

Thanks for your good thoughts about my dear friend.

Okay ... back to politics!

hugs to all,

Bren

PS ... I just have to say, along with what Enjoyfulscoot said, I love Barbara. She's a great gal and lots of fun.  She was my roommate last summer in Canada.  And she's a helluva driver behind the wheel.  My best friend is a staunch Republican and we just don't talk much about politics.

Wabbit

I see it's time for another donation.  I think this one is going to our Democratic Senate candidate ... we have a chance at picking up this seat.

Lots of good information posted in response though IMO.  It has bothered me from the beginning that the attack in Libya was being used politically.  A candidate who really does not know what is/was going on shooting off their mouth can cause further damage.  An incumbent President has many advantages in a political race but their disadvantage is that they are not free to just spout off and must often remain silent or be evasive for national security reasons.

I love Biden.  That big smile just always makes me smile too ... even at times in the past when I disagreed with him.  And yes ... he called out the BS and the lack of any specifics on their so-called 'plan' and the lies and the flip flops.  I sincerely hope Obama does the same next time ... it's long overdue.

Happy weekend everybody!

ETA  ... just saw your post Bren.  You are an angel ... have a safe trip.  All digits crossed that they come up with something good for Brenda quickly.        

RetiredLibby

On Gitmo, the Democrats as well as the Republicans blocked the President's efforts to close it:

"In a blatant show of disconnect, many express disappointment that Guantanamo remains opened (sic).  In January, 2009 President Obama signed an order to shut down Guantanamo. On May 20, 2009, the Senate passed an amendment (H.R. 2346) by a 90-6 vote to block funds needed for the transfer of prisoners held at Guantánamo Bay."  (source:  http://www.winningprogressive.org/democrats-had-a-filibuster-proof-senate-majority-for-72-days-during-president-obamas-first-term)

ETA:  Bren, I too just saw your post -- I'm so sorry to hear about NC Brenda.  You are a good and true friend to her (and so many of us!).  Thinking peaceful and painfree thoughts toward the south today.  (((((Bren and Brenda)))))

Belinda44

I just don't get some people.  Do they forget that we were in a free fall in November 2008?  Now the stock market is up, unemployment is dropping, housing sales are up, foreclosures are down.  Uh.....yeah, we are doing better now than we were four years ago. 

Don't you love statistics and facts?.......

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/10/12/14391322-you-dont-read-the-statistics

"Biden pounced, explaining, "You don't read the statistics. That's not how [the unemployment rate is] going. It's going down," but Ryan made his pitch anyway.

"Look, did they come in and inherit a tough situation? Absolutely. But we're going in the wrong direction.... We're heading in the wrong direction."

Now, this would ordinarily be the time that I point out how backwards this is. Every relevant metric -- job creation, economic growth, the stock market, the manufacturing sector, even the deficit -- is vastly improved as compared to four years ago. If improving economic conditions, in Ryan's mind, are "the wrong direction," he probably ought to define "wrong." Just last week, the unemployment rate fell to a four-year low -- is Ryan going to argue that a falling jobless rate is bad news?

But event putting these details aside, another problem with Ryan's take is that even Mitt Romney has said the opposite.

The Republican presidential candidate has said, more than once, that "the economy is getting better." Indeed, remember this incredible clip?"  (see link for the clip)

River_Rat

Bren, holding you and your Brenda in my heart. 

HL, Thanks I thought I remembered being spitting mad at the Dems on that too but wasn't sure. I know they were hearing from constituents and my friends here seemed to be scared witless at the idea that terrorists could be put in prisons here on American soil. So I kind of understood the vote but was so disappointed and angry too.

Belinda44

RetiredLibby

Found it: http://factleft.com/2012/01/31/the-myth-of-democratic-super-majority/

Pull Quote:  "Discussion: The Democrats had a super majority for a total of 24 days. On top of that, the period of Super Majority was split into one 11-day period and one 13-day period. Given the glacial pace that business takes place in the Senate, this was way too little time for the Democrats pass any meaningful legislation, let alone get bills through committees and past all the obstructionistic tactics the Republicans were using to block legislation.

Further, these Super Majorities count Joe Lieberman as a Democrat even though he was by this time an Independent. Even though he was Liberal on some legislation, he was very conservative on other issues and opposed many of the key pieces of legislation the Democrats and Obama wanted to pass. For example, he was adamantly opposed to "Single Payer" health care and vowed to support a Republican Filibuster if it ever came to the floor."

Summary:

1. 1/07 - 12/08 -      51-49 - Ordinary Majority.
2. 1/09 - 7/14/09 - 59-41 - Ordinary Majority. (Coleman/Franklin Recount.)
3. 7/09 - 8/09 -      60-40 - Technical Super Majority, but since Kennedy is unable to vote, the Democrats can't overcome a filibuster
4. 8/09 - 9/09 -      59-40 - Ordinary Majority. (Kennedy dies)
5. 9/09 - 10/09 -   60-40 - Super Majority for 11 working days.
6. 1/10 - 2/10 -  60-40 - Super Majority for 13 working days

If you go to the link, it has the sources and a more detailed explanation, including the links to the legislative calendar of the Senate.