I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange
Comments
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So, peeked over the fence and found out some interesting information. Apparently, Jews who are politically liberal are not observant. I'm sure this will come as a surprise to Senator Lieberman or my 90 year old aunt, a liberal Democrat, who is going to synagogue every night to say Kiddush and who spent a month in israel studying Talmud, or my orthodox liberal uncle who survived Auschwitz. Other news: apparently secular Jews don't care about Israel. That will certainly come as a surprise to the majority of Israelis who are secular and care very much about their country. This will also come as a surprise to every Jew I know. Every Jew I know remembers the Holocaust. Every Jew I know remembers when Jews tried to flee Germany and no one wanted them, and they were sent back to die in the camps. Every Jew I know, secular or not, wants there to be a Jewish homeland so there will be a place for Jews to flee another Hitler-type leader.
The fact that not all Jews, here or in Israel, necessarily support the most hard right wingers of the political parties in Israel does not mean we do not care about the State of Israel. It is in fact because we care, because we want the State of Israel to reflect the values of the Torah and Talmud, of justice and fairness that many support a two state solution, that many oppose continued settlements in the West Bank.
Jews tend to be liberal, because we know what happens in counties that do not foster justice, fariness and diversity. Jews tend not to like mandatory religion imposed by government, because we have been shot, poisoned, and burned over the centuries for our religion. Yes, there are politically conservative Jews, and there are Republican Jews, but note that the city with the largest Jewish concentration in America, New York, is overwhelmingly Democratic, and that despite fear mongering about risk to Israel, Jews still remain overwhelmingly Democratic.
I have no doubts about Obama's commitment to the existence of Israel.
Sorry, everyone, my Jewish dander got raised. I had many run-ins when I was in high school and college with fundamentalists who basically told me that unless I accepted Jesus as Lord, I would be going to hell. Very unpleasant. I had relatives who disappeared from the earth during the Holocaust; others who survived the camps. My father, born and raised in Ohio, told me how he was chased by other kids, yelling that he killed Jesus. My grandparents fled the Ukraine when the Cosacks rode into the village and shot up the homes of all the Jews. I have no problem with anyone believing whatever they want about the return of Jesus or about the State of Israel; I do have a problem when people make generalizations about Jews for their own purposes; when the State of Israel is used to try to gain a political advantage.
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Well said, Kam.
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Thanks Cheryl, but I would like to thank Alexandria for her post about her Jewish "family" vis a vis some of the presumptious posts made elsewhere.
I'd also like to speak to the LDS church's practice of proxy baptizing. It is equally presumptuous. I am almost certain I have been proxy baptized by this church as a geneology was done by an LDS member for some long lost great aunt of mine in order to distribute an inheritance. These genologies are used by the church to develop these lists. They perform these baptisms without regard to the subject's religion.
Turns out, in 2009, Barack Obama's mother was baptized by proxy at a Provo Temple. And what would you think if you were handed this name: Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili or Adolf Hitler? It's been done.
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alexandria --- I have no hard proof since I have not not yet gotten finished with this particular life cycle, but in a great deal of spiritual study that I've done for a good number of years it is my belief that there is no such thing as hell.....or if so, it is what many of your relatives in the camps and the Ukraine lived through....
Hell is a marvelous way ( even if it is fiction ) to control people and it aptly does that as you know since you were threatened with it many times by people who thought it the truth. Too many people are far too eager to put on a cloak.......it is protection. If it makes them feel more secure by all means. My early life started that way. I was terrified --- going to hell in a hand-basket and since I was actually too young to KNOW all the sins I thought it was just a sure thing. Anyway....if you don't keel over with a heart attack at a very young age, you start to find out that things are not so bad as you thought.
I did find later on that people find great comfort in going to a regular Church Service.....some enjoy it so much they go several times a week and I have no quarrel at all with that. I did it myself for a number of years, but I have found after a great deal of study that no building houses the Creator. I can get the same feeling when I'm out in my yard, surrounded by trees with the sun sparkling through the leaves and a sky full of fluffy white clouds. When I hear all the little sounds of the insects and birds, and the lapping of the waves on the lake. I do not need a building or cathedral --- my God is willing to meet me anywhere and it doesn't have to be Sunday either.
As stated, I have no proof......but I think you will find where HELL is when you asked those who have been tortured, perhaps ask those returning from war, especially like those returning from Viet Nam. They experienced some hell, ....... hell is right here and I believe it always has been.
Lots of debate could be had, but why bother. The very first Bible was written in Aramaic. This book has been re-written 25 or 26 times and re-translated as well. Some churches have different Bibles......no need to debate anything. I am sure God could care less....JMHO if you try your best to follow the Ten Commandments, do as little harm as possible and treasure/respect the life you were given the only hell you will ever see is right here where you are, and if you are really lucky, you will only see it vicariously.
Just my little rant.
Jackie
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Alexandria, I hear you. People tend to forget that many of the early settlers in Israel came out of socialist circles in "Mittel Europa," Austria, Hungary, Germany etc. My Sabra friends are much less strident in their rhetoric than fundies and neo-cons in the US.
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It was our 35th wedding anniversary today - we shared a lovely bottle of bubbly - dinner out planned either tomorrow night or later in the week - nothing much open on a Monday night here, especially not my favourite restaurant.
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Suzieq: Happy anniversary!
Sorry everyone for the rant last night.
Kam: Thanks. Yeah, I do find the proxy baptizing to be offensive, especially that of Holocaust victims. Do you know they've baptized Anne Frank? And the family of Eli Weisel. The LDS church has been called out on it, and apologized, but I understand the practice continues. Not that I believe it makes any difference to the victims, but it does to any surviving family, and it is also disrespectful to the dead.
Illinois; I'm with you in that I don't believe in Hell. I am one of those secular, liberal Jews, who does a courtesy wave to the religious traditions, but fiercely defends the Jewish people. Like you, I find my peace in the beauty of nature. I have the deepest respect for genuinely religious people, who use their religion not only to find peace but to do good works. I have worked with nuns, priests, ministers and rabbis on social issues. But while religion be both a comfort and a blessing, it can also be the basis of intolerance and hateful acts. This goes for any religion, including Judaism. On Christianity: Jesus' teaching of common responsibility, love, forgiveness and peace are profound and beautiful, but at the same time, terrible things have been done in his name in the past two thousand years, especially by those who do believe in hell - and that unbaptised people go there.
By the way, Rabbi Hillel was once asked by a non-Jew to explain the entire Torah standing on one foot. He stood on one foot and said, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor." I may be secular, but this teaching I follow.
Ranting again. Sigh.
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Alexandria, what you have written is beautiful, no apologies for speaking the truth.
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Yes Alexandria....no apologies for truth so aptly described.
**I have the deepest respect for genuinely religious people, who use their religion not only to find peace but to do good works**.I honestly believe and certainly hope that most people feel just as you. I do think some may take anything said on the subject the wrong way, but everything is a choice.Otherwise I rejoice in today. It's Monday and the sun is out and I once again have the opportunity to go out in the world and try to do my very best. That is my every day challenge. Starts with my feral cat colonies, several who will cautiously allow me to pet them....no quick moves though. It is a great beginning for my day.Jackie -
Alexandria58 - you can "rant" anytime you want!
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I find it interesting that some Christians, who consider Mormonism a cult, suddenly throw that belief out the window when their candidate is a Mormon.
And any Mormon who thinks they are being embraced and respected by the right is sadly mistaken.
Mary
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**I have the deepest respect for genuinely religious people, who use their religion not only to find peace but to do good works**.
IllinoisLady - or who transcend their religous framework. There was a psychologist named Lawrence Kohlberg who studied cognitive development and particularly the moral development of children into young adulthood. Independent of religion, humans have the capacity to judge their actions and the actions of others within the context of the betterment of society and respect for all. He describes 6 stages...though he found very few who could operate 100% of the time at the highest stage and may go between stage 5 and 6. Ghandi, MLK, would operate at this highest stage. Most organized religions prevent moral reasoning, imho, but simulate a Stage 2 level where authorities dictate the one right view. As human beings, we are capable of so much more. Religion is not necessary or a pre-requisite to attaining high moral values, and the more organized a religion is, dictating every facet of behavior, it stifles genuine moral development, other than through emulation rather than through cognitive development. Sometimes through the threat of punishment!! ie. Hell. I am not saying they are mutually exclusive and ofcourse, religion may have other purposes other than the betterment of society, but I am saying "good works" and high moral thinking are not necessarily religion based.
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Alexandria - thank you deeply for your rants. I appreciate them.
and Kam, thanks for your posting about insurance. IMHO I don't believe Romney is an incompetent person, but I do think that he takes a business stance about life. He is accustomed to selling his ideas, so he says, as does any salesman, what he thinks the customer wants to hear. I don't think he is a bad person, but I do think he is a bad choice for president. He has only two really entrenched ideas IMO. 1. Rich is good and 2. I want to be President.
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Kam, I agree that religion is not a prereq for moral reasoning or for moral behavior. However, I must take issue with the idea that religion only achieves quai-morality through fear and discourages moral reasoning. I know it exists, especially in the fire&brimstone variety of fundie religion, but that doesn't mean it is the norm or what the religion posits as ideal.
In the Greek church, for example, the word for "sin" is a word that essentially means "wrong choice." Hell does not figure very prominently and we also have the concept of Divine Economy, which crudely put means that you have to reason out which of two evils is ultimately greater and/or that the superficially "moral" action may not be the one that best serves divine will.
An example of Divine Economy in action would be the church's stance on abortion. The church considers abortion wrong. But at the same time runs hostels where women who have had to travel to get an abortion can rest and recover before going back home.
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Momine - obviously there are different constructs of religion, that allow different abilities for one to reason outside of their respective boxes. In any case, that is always a personal choice and I am not at all saying moral development is incompatible with religion. I do think it can, in some cases, stifle it though.
Growing up, I lived near many Catholic schools and parishes, ergo, many of my young friends were Catholic. Just an example, and something obviously that could be reasoned out of as one matures, but Confession! I observed small "immoral" behaviors of these young friends who reasoned they would be absolved of these small infractions with their weekly confessions. How would this absolution ever allow them to freely think about the consequences of their behavior on others? Since I've never been to confession, perhaps the Priest moved this process along, but the threat of punishment or the mere act of confessing, was a force coming from without, rather than from the thought processes from within. I can imagine, for some, this became the ultimate solution for their immoral thoughts and behaviors, even into adulthood. Just saying...
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Here is a standard of morality from Buddhist teachings. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html#rahula . Of course this advice requires someone who is observant, self disciplined, and responsible. It wouldn't work for those who are always making excuses for their actions.
Reflection or Mirror Sutta
"What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?"
"For reflection, sir."
"In the same way, Rahula, all actions are to be done with repeated reflection.
"Whenever you want to do an action, you should reflect on it: 'This action I want to do - would it lead to
self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful action with painful consequences, painful results, then any action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any action of that sort is fit for you to do."While you are doing an action, you should reflect on it: 'This action I am doing - is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not...you may continue with it.
"Having done an action, you should reflect on it: 'This action I have done - did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful qualities.
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Kam-I was raised Catholic, and yes, there were some who pretty much behaved as they wanted all week long, and then went to confession on Saturdays. One of the many reasons I left the Catholic Church. I do still consider myself a Christian.
Mary
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Notself, that is really not so far from the Greek way of looking at it. Besides the Buddha is a saint in the Greek church. He is called something else, but the story is that of Buddha.
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Kam and Yram, yes, the whole confession business can obviously lead to the kind of thinking you describe. That is not how it is intended, however. Still, the Catholic Church does tend to be quite authoritarian, for better and worse. Then again, fundie Greek-Orthodox consider the Pope the anti-Christ
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Happy Anniversary susieq!
Jackie ... you and your ferals make me smile! Maybe we can't cure all the world's problems but we can change the world for some people ... or some cats or dogs ... or something in our own small way.
I saw an article where Mrs. Romney said she was so happy that people finally got to see the real Mitt she knew. The comments were heavy with ... so he lies to you too ... and tells you different stories until he finds one you like too
Much eloquence and wisdom has been shared here. Thank you all.
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Notself: I always liked Buddist teachings.
My belief is that the highest morality exists when the focus is not on helping oneself but helping others, on inclusion, not exclusion, on acceptance of differences, not rejection of the other. One can find this with or without religion, imo. The problem sometimes is that people use religion to become mired in the self-righteousness of their particular view of God.
Anyway, here's to you my sisters who selflessly give of yourselves.
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WR- I can't even imagine how Romney morally reasons his deliberate lies in order to get elected. I don't think he is NOT aware of his lies, as he changes on a given issue from day to day, depending on his audience or how they are received. He seems to judge his actions soley on whether what he says will get him elected. This means he places his highest moral value on himself as leader, at the expense of what conventionally we think of as moral behavior.
This is why I think the Republican Party is immoral. Romney is now ahead in the polls....certainly, some Republicans are totally aware that he has taken multiple positions on any given issue and the way he did it was to lie to the American Public. This "do anything to get elected" is based on deception.
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OMG - is this a joke? They think this is good news? A birther as Secretary of Commerce?
http://conservativepapers.com/news/2012/10/07/new-romney-administration-taking-shape/#.UHLz2Y4Z2fQ
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Loving the discussion and thoughtful information so many of you are posting. I am reminded of the following quote by the Dalai Lama:
"This is my simple religion.
There is no need for complicated philosphy.
Our own brain, our own heart is our temple;
the philosophy is kindness."
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Saw Lehrer on Morning Joe today, and he said the debate went just as it was planned..............he said it was not suppose to be the "normal" way of debating, it was kind of each man for himself.......then he said "maybe that should have been explained more clearly before the debate even began...........apparently people did not know about the change in venue..............well that is evident, but I'm thinking.......someone told Romney cause he just ran his big lying mouth, and no one was stopping him.............
Honestly, I hope Obama wins...........I thought at one point he had it "in the bag", but I'm getting a little worried now........can't wait for the next debate.....I want to see the "Pres" whip Romney's ass...........and I think he can do it, if the people advising him allow him to.......we know he is a nice guy, but it is time for him to "take off the gloves", and cut Romney down to size...............he is pathetic..........
I said way back in 2004 when I watched Obama speak at the Dem. convention..........I said to my kids."did you see that young black man last night give a speech...(could not remember his name, and said to them.."he has a weird name)....................well did I call it or what.................then in 2008 someone said "hey there is a "black guy" running for Pres.......I said "bet its that guy with the weird name.............and damn if it wasn't............liked him from the first time I heard him speak..............people say "he's just a good speaker"........................I agree he is a "good speaker", but the difference between, Obama and the rest of them is "he speaks from the heart"....................I voted for him in 2008, and will do it again in 2012..................he deserves another 4 years............there is not one man alive that could have cleaned up that mess in 4 years...................even 8 will be a stretch.......................
Can't wait to see "crazy Joe" this week..........he is from our neck of the woods......one state over, and he is brutal.........just hope he doesn't put his foot in his mouth....he is good at that, but gotta love the guy..................he says it like it is...............he is going to bury Ryan.....................and then throw the "dirt and shovel" in on top of him...............lol.
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Love your rants, Alexandria! Rant on, sister!!
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Blue - did you ever take those steroids for your back?? Some steroid compounds have been infected with fungal meningitis. All in the Eastern United States. Just want you to take all precautions, if so.
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Jackie............Iread your piece, and thought.....wow, someone who thinks like I do.......I was baptized a catholic.....did not make my sacraments till I was 17, and only because the boy (ended up my husband), wanted me to be as he called it "something"........and since the majority of my friends where Catholic, I thought "why not".......taking instructions at that late age to receive communion, and confirmation is a good thing, because you really understand what the church is all about......................I never missed Mass, and many times went during the week..............had 6 children.....not because of the church, but because I thought I had the rhythm method down perfect, which was my choice, not the churches..............about 2 years ago I fell away from the church in "I stopped going to Mass"..........why, because I was bored out of my mind, watched everything, but what was going on..........and thought "what the hell am I doing here"....................know what the reason is ?.................its the Priest saying the Mass...................If he is good, I can sit and listen all day................however the majority of them are not.............they are boring, opinionated, arcaic in their thinking (especially if their very old)..........and when they start with that "money" crap, I get turned off....................I have not gotten over the "guilt" of not going all the time, and think everyone needs some type of religion in their life, but I found more and more the catholic church is not where I find it.......................I love Novena's, daily Mass, a good Priest, 40 hours devotion, the Benediction, and when they have a "good Missionary come and speak"................but those things don't happen all the time.
Guess I'm just looking for excuses for my lack of christianity, but Jackie, you said it best................God is not in a building.............and somehow after reading your post, I don't feel quite as guilty.........you are so right, and made things so clear..........I see God in my grandchildren, a beautiful sunset, the new little puppy my daughter just adopted from a rescue......these are God like things........not a building in which 1/2 of the people are there because "like me" guilt, and that old fashion belief that if you don't go to church on Sunday, you will go to hell...................then 1/2 of them come out, chastise their children for no reason, drink, do drugs, make slaves of their wives, steal, and go on doing the same "sins" that they just prayed for.............................but best of all............watching them go to the alter rail to recieve "communion", and think noting of it.
Best of all is on Saturday when there is Confession, the church is empty of all the sinners, who go to the alter rail and recieve on Sunday...............wow guess that was a big enough "rant"..............but Jackie...........thanks for making me feel better about myself this day at 1:33 EST.................hugs.
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Hi Everyone ... it's cold here today. The temps aren't out of the 40's. Had to dig out my winter jacket to walk the dogs. And I had to turn the furnace on. That made me so sad. I really miss summer.
Alexandria ... I am really enjoying your comments today.
Kam ... Tim called to tell me about the fungal meningitis that is happening. He was worried about Blue as well. Lots of people have died from the recent steroid injections to the back.
Hope everyone is having a good day.
hugs,
Bren
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I just finished watching the Stewart/O'Reilly debate. I highly recommend it.
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