Paleo Pals - Health, Weight Loss & Support

MAP1002

Junie, love, hugs and support!!

Cowgirl- so jealous of the beef!! But sympathize with the diverticulitis. My husband suffers from that. I am trying to get him to follow my nutrition plan, but not always successful (I refuse to call it a diet!)..

Workout Wed- cardio day! still a little sore from upper body Tuesday, especially where the nodes where taken. But, at least I know I did something.

Thursday, should be lower body, leg day, but-getting a HAIR CUT!! Woo Hoo.. (my hair has been back for 6 months now, but always fun to say! ) so, not sure I will make it to class tonight.

Made an awesome quick dinner last night. Not sure how Paleo compliant it is, but it was for my Max program (which is based on Paleo).. Sauteed spinach and mushrooms with garlic, shallot, infused olive oil, touch of butter and splash of white wine over brown rice pasta. and a dash of parm cheese on top. Not bad for a non-cook on the fly with what was in the house! (but still got stop with the cookies.. ug.. too many in the house and the rest of the family are not consuming them fast enough!)

Oncology check-up tomorrow, with blood work.. hate to get on that scale... sigh..

Happy Friday Eve y'all!!

sas-schatzi

Helllooooooo, just read three pages. Chattie bunch Hahaha. Not paleo yet. Yes, being a dummy.

Egads, define for me the difference in these diets Macrobiotic--complex carbohydrate & low animal protein and Paleo. Sounds obvious, but it's not really. I have a very specific reason for asking. Of course, it involves a story.

Also, OMD I went to my very packed library of cookbooks and came up with a book, edition 1972. Verified vodka is the only one listed as 0-ZERO carbs.. I know a friend has to get Potato vodka b/c she has GI trouble with other vodka's

Distilled spirits--whisky, gin, vodka, rum, brandy) trace. Not sure how that squares with the other listing of vodka on the same page as zero carbs? But trace is good.

Wine--dry white, red, trace carbs. Rose 1 carb. All measured at 4 ozs.

Lists a martini 3 oz as trace, but doesn't state the recipe. French vermouth has 4 carbs and Italian vermouth has 14 carbs.

So my Bourbon Manhattan (7 carbs)made with French vermouth isn't too bad. But I'm sure asking for French vermouth will get some very strange looks as the market is basically owned by the Italians. What's funny about the page is the most common drinks of the time are listed. Now most of theses drinks are considered dinasaurs now i.e.Old Fashioned 4 carbs

For those with mold allergies, things that are fermented like wines and beers can be a problem with GI. Things that are distilled may not be so problematic. But as I said my friend has to buy potato vodka versus the others inorder for her GI system to not become volcanic.

Hahaaha no intention of writing about this, but here it is.

sas-schatzi

This old book first printing was 1965 (mine 1972). "The L--C diet, known as the Low Carbohydrate Air Force diet".. I thought wouldn't it be fun to see what compared to today's thoughts. I purchased the book b/c it's carb and calories count charts. Paged through tonight. Came across an applicable statement.

"Memorize two simple rules. Keep down your intake of sugars and starches. Keep up your intake of fats and proteins. Remember on this diet, you can eat all you want of the foods that are high in protein and fat as long as they aare low in carbohydrates. Best of all to remember---you never need to be hungry."

Sounds pretty Paleo to me. I never read the book I bought as I sid for the charts. Sitting on the shelf all these years to be rediscovered.

Check out Amazon for an old copy. Mines 93 pages. 36 pages of reading. Rest is charts.

sas-schatzi

Was it here I read about someone having their hands cramping?

MAP1002

Sas, Love that you put up numbers on drinks! My family are Manhattan drinkers, well before it came back into vogue. we make by the pitcher when we get together. My brother actually ages in a barrel in anticipation of Christmas!

thanks for the info!

solfeo

Vodka and club soda (or water in a pinch) is my occasional indulgence of choice. Besides not affecting my blood sugar or kicking me out of ketosis, high quality vodka is low in acetaldehyde (through distillation), which can increase cancer risk. Red wine is not unfortunately. Generally, the rule is that clear spirits contain less acetaldehyde than colored. More tips for how to reduce exposure here:

How to Minimize Cancer Causing Acetaldehyde Exposure from Alcoholic Beverages

From a weight loss perspective, the issue with even low carb alcoholic beverages is that our bodies have to burn off the alcohol first before they turn to the food calories. Drinking vodka might not cause weight gain in moderation, but it can stall weight loss if you drink often. We probably shouldn't be doing that anyway, as we have all been told.

sas-schatzi

oops

vampeyes

Friday - Net Carbs - 26.4

Saturday - Net Carbs 23.6

I am hoping this is good or at least a good start. Found some wonderful videos and they helped tremendously. I got into a deep depression with all the foods the Cancer for Keto book said you couldn't have and the small list of what you could. So for now I have change my approach to trying to get my net carbs under 20 and will go from there.

solfeo

Good job vampeyes! That depressed feeling can actually be a symptom of carb withdrawal, and it should pass after you get a few more days (sometimes weeks) of very low carb eating under your belt. Grains, and wheat in particular cause a real physical withdrawal syndrome when you give them up and it's worse for some people than for others. There is an addictive protein in wheat called gliadin that I have written about before, and similar to what a drug addict goes through, your brain and your body are making a last desperate effort to get you to give up and feed the addiction. Just keep telling yourself it is only temporary, and I promise it is.

I don't think you have to stick to a specific list of foods, as I have said before. There are some keto-approved foods I don't eat because I don't think they are good for cancer in general, or ER+ cancer in particular, but I don't miss them or crave them anymore because the diet frees you from those kinds of cravings.

Dairy foods are one category of food I avoid, due to hormones, but I eat cheese on special occasions without breaking ketosis or gaining weight. Keeping your blood sugar low is more important than eating or not eating specific foods IMO. The Keto for Cancer book allows dairy I think, because she didn't write it specifically for people with hormone-sensitive cancers. Many people with ER+ breast cancer do eat dairy and do just fine, so there is a lot of room for personal discretion. There is no diet that can prevent cancer or recurrence with any certainty, or a lot of people wouldn't be here. The best we can do has to be good enough.

Pi-Xi

Hello!

I just caught up on this thread. It is fantastic! I'm definitely not low carb, but thinking about further altering my diet only for the purpose of trying to prevent a recurrence. The intensity of my exercise program means I have to eat a lot to maintain my weight. There are so many conflicting messages about what a person with hormone positive breast cancer should eat. Most sources say to eat low-fat, but I'm not sure I believe it. I was eating low-fat when all this started. As far as dairy goes, the latest study I read claimed high fat dairy was to blame for higher recurrence rates and that low-fat dairy was okay. Also, trying to eat to prevent colon cancer, which killed my mother. Hard to balance everything!

Thanks, Egads, for starting this thread.

Pi-Xi

solfeo

Hi Pi-Xi. I do limit animal fat due to the hormones. I don't limit healthy fat from plant sources. The ketogenic diet relies on fat for calories to a greater extent than a regular Paleo diet, and you'll see certain target percentages recommended. I eat as much as I want to make whatever I'm eating, but I don't add fat on purpose just to reach a number. When you are not eating a high carb diet your body burns fat for fuel (the main reason it helps you lose weight), because it doesn't have to burn off several hundred carbs first before it can even start on the fat. That doesn't leave a lot of fat to accumulate in the liver or circulate in the blood. IMO it's the wacked out blood lipids and fatty liver that are the risk factors for cancer, and not eating fat in itself. My blood lipid panel and liver enzymes just get better and better the longer I follow the diet, and that is the evidence that convinces me.

There are plenty of people who disagree with me but in my opinion the kind of fat, how much you eat vs. how much you burn, and what you eat with it are the factors that determine risk. The way the nutritional studies are done is not conducive to revealing this truth because of what they are typically comparing a low fat diet to. If you're eating a lot of butter on bread, it makes sense that your breast cancer risk might be higher than someone eating bread but no butter. Doesn't prove eating bread is good for you. Less harm doesn't prove best benefit.

Another thing you'll notice on a low carb diet is that you can eat more calories and lose weight. On a HCLF diet you might struggle to lose or maintain weight on 1200 per day while starving and fighting food cravings every step of the way. I can eat close to 2000 and maintain 150 lbs. of weight loss.

Pi-Xi

Thanks, solfeo!


I really don't want to lose any weight! I've worked hard to put on a few pounds since diagnosis as that ordeal took nine months and the associated stress was at least as effective as keto for losing weight. I was emaciated. I don't restrict my eating except for holding back a bit on carbs and animal protein and avoiding all the ridiculous cakes and cookies that are brought into work.


My doctor always tells me my cholesterol levels are unbelievably great, but then again, so were my mom's...


I love eating lots of vegetables and I do have berries and usually an apple everyday. I am eating nuts and olive oil. Coconut oil is what we use when we bake our low-sugar spelt carrot and pineapple muffins. I love them so much. Strangely, the food that makes me feel the calmest and best when I eat it is steak. My body just seems to need it, but I only have it every few months. My ferritin is low and dropping, so that might be the reason. Otherwise my blood test results have been excellent.

cowgal

Anyone wanting to give this a try, I targeted tomorrow as my start day so if anyone else wants to give it a go, let's get going?

Solfeo - All the fat in the ketogenic diet scares me a little with all of my current health issues. I think paleo is a better fit since it is real food and can be lower fat than ketogenic.

MAP1002 - It is definitely hard sometimes to get husbands to be compliant. Luckily, there is enough similarity in what we both need to eat that I think I can make the minor adjustments for both of us.

vampeyes

Cowgal, I am with you. Today is day 4, we got this.... although can I really say it's day 4 when I have yet to get my net carbs under 20? Yesterday was bad, but dinner was 10.4 - oops.

The two websites I have been frequently trying recipes from is https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/recipe and https://www.ketoconnect.net/

Last night's dinner was from Dr. Mark Hyman, didn't realize the amount of carbs when I put it on the meal plan.

Egads007

Happy Monday Cave Peeps! Ok, so did anyone go Vegas? (for the newbies: Vegas is our term for cheats on eating ...what happens on weekends, stays on weekends for some folks here eating 80/20 or just ummm, eating junk lol) I didn't....just ate too much as my MIL was staying since Thursday. Meals were much more extravagant than usual. Yeah, nice one eh? Blame my MIL for my overeating LOL!

Pi-Xi - Shouting out a big welcome to you! Glad to see you like the thread, and glad you're joining in! It looks like you enjoy eating clean, and that's a good thing! No wonder steak makes you feel better if your iron levels are low....funny thing is steak makes me feel better just thinking about it lol! Seriously though, you could buy grass fed pasture raised meats/antibiotic hormone free poultry to eliminate the carcinogenic pitfalls (braising rather than grilling helps too). Expensive yes, but if you're not eating much of it you may find the cost offset. This way you could include it in your diet a few more times per month. Are you taking ferritin supplements? (thinking you probably are) If not, talk to the doc as it might be necessary. May veggie based diets do tend to lead to low iron. On colon cancer: If you're eating to prevent, the best eliminations would be wheat and grains....bar none. The naturally occurring toxins in wheat/grain punch holes in the colon, cause inflammation, and why I swear my ulcerative colitis disappeared completely after taking them out of my diet. On dairy: I think hormone/antibiotic laden dairy is what leads to cancer. The high fat type (if you don't suffer GI issues) would be the best choice if you're buying organic/grass fed dairy. I stick to hard cheeses on the few occasions I do dairy, and 18% cream for my morning coffee. Otherwise I avoid it. Most dairy products (yogurt) include added sugar...why the hell they need added sugar in so many foods is beyond me! MUFFINS? We got muffins! Paleo muffins! Lots of them, 31 of them here: https://blog.paleohacks.com/paleo-muffin-recipes/ Paleo baking is especially helpful in maintaining or gaining weight...taste pretty good too!

Vamp - Look at you go keto! 20 per day isn't anything to sneeze at....especially in the beginning! Are you planning on staying in ketosis long term or short? If it's weight loss you're looking for 50-80 carbs per day also leads to effortless weight loss. No need to sweat a 10 carb dinner. Most of mine top out around 15-20. Just have to be sure your carbs are complex and not sugar driven. Oh and btw, Solfeo is correct, the depressive, possible sluggish feeling is referred to in paleo circles as 'carb flu'. It should lift in 3-7 days. If not, take another look at your carb levels, might be too low for you personally. I occasionally re-carb for a day with white potato if I get a run of feeling tired. Works like a charm! If the depressive feeling is because of the 'loss' of certain foods, well, once you dive in you'll find plenty of really good stuff to make up for the losses. Paleo does provided much more satisfying foods. Hang in, you'll get used to it and appreciate how much better the eating is.

Cowgirl - You're reading my mind! I wanted to have a squeaky clean eating week after eating so much rich during my MIL's visit...so the timing is perfect! I'm in! Btw, don't be afraid of healthy oils/fats, it's what keeps you full, ad your body only adsorbs 10% compared to the 85% adsorption of unhealthy oils. I understand your fear. So much so that when I started I made an appointment with my PCP to discuss. The good thing about paleo (for me at least) is that it seems more balanced. Clear your cupboard of unhealthy fats (and sugar)....they're the equivalent of drinking Mr. Clean! ))

Sol - Excellent point.....HFLC eating for weight loss is SO much more maintainable, hardly ever hungry, so many options. Can't be stressed enough, this ain't no diet! For me personally, it was a no brainer.

Map - How'd the hairdoo turn out?? Gawwwd, I have to get in to my hairdresser. I'm starting to look like a mad scientist in the morning! When do you get your bloodwork results?

SAS - I have my work cut out for me lol, can you relay the macro story to I can better fit my answer to you? Still working on the biome, and meal plans for the thread. Busy girl I am! Btw, just to play the devils advocate, I have mold issues and find white kicks my allergies and tummy upsets going where reds don't. Go figure. Red is the choice of paleo peeps, will be posting on this soon, stay tuned. Loved the air force statement, 1965 wasn't just a good year for music (groovy), it appears it was a good year for good eating sense. I'm def going to check it out on amazon....military dudes generally have this stuff down to a fine art. For very good reason. Will be rocking out to Hendrix & the Doors with my low carb dinner Have you spoken to Junie?.....I worry about her, it's got to be so rough right now!

Ok So who else is in on Cowgirls 'care to take a dare' starting point?? We seem to be missing some folks, TwoHobbies, Hopeandlove, Wren44, Mimi, Meg101, and anyone else I missed.....where the heck are you? Shazza is in Japan...lucky girl!

sas-schatzi

Morning Paleo Keto gals

Egads, 1987 I used Complex carbohydrate diet with low animal protein for my Dad when he was on dialysis. I started it when he was in serious trouble. All his lab values either came into normal range or improved greatly. It was a risk, but orthodox medicine was killing him. He was only on it for three weeks and he cheated. He wanted his meat and potatoes back. I said It was of course his choice, but he needed to understand the outcome was death. Regretfully, I was right. But again it was a conscious choice.

A few years later (around 1990 -92) the New renal diet mimicked what I had done. Mostly, They didn't take it as far.

Some highlights were: ON his dialysis days he reduced from 8-9 lbs fliud removal to 0-4 llbs Electrolytes were normal. Major exception was BUN Blood Urea Nitrogen. That dropped from 96 to 66. Still about 6x's normal.(remember he cheated). The impact on BUN for dialysis patients is related to animal protein.

Some food highlights that were allowed based on research that were different than than what might be expected.

Goats milk (do not use the canned type as it smells and tastes like an old stinky foot). This was leap in faith. It more closely meet the dietary restrictions, but all dairy was restricted per standard rules. I used it for baking. He loved to drink it. Long ago it was used for babies

Bancha (sic) twig tea for medicinal reasons.

salty soup to begin each meal. This was a hurdle for me b/c of the salt. The liquid and salt are a limited and added salt is a no-no for dialysis pts. But I risked it and he did fine (note: the reduced fluid pull off). The whole complex macro-cho and low animal protein diet is standard Japanese Asian concept. Their soups aren't really salty, they are well balanced. The concept of the soup was that it prepared the stomach for digestion.

Pine nuts were a free snack. Low in all the nutrients he had to limit. The next treat that was allowed was sunflower seeds. All the other nuts were ruled out.

Ginger was used for digestion. He either started the meal with ginger tea or finished. This was 1987. It wasn't being used much in those days. Long story. But the short story is he had been in dry heaves for 24 hours. Regular meds weren't working. I saw ginger tea STOP his dry heaves in front of my eyes. He couldn't burp from then on without someone asking if he wanted Ginger tea.

The charts I used to make his allowable foods list was from the US department of Agriculture and Japanese Nutritionist Association.

sas-schatzi

Egads, one of my hurdles here is I don't usually like to or want to eat for hours after I awake. Actually makes me nauseated thinking of eating to early in the day. I know that is a negative. I know my body thinks I'm starving it. BUT that's me. Is there something. that I can drink that's in the paleo realm

Also, without any description of why, could you list. I like lists Hahaha

10-15 food items to have in the house(like a shopping list)

vampeyes

Hey Sas, have you tried Keto Coffee? https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/bulletproof-coffee Some drink this as their breakfast apparently. It sounds awful, but it's pretty good. I started small with 1 TBSP butter and 1 tsp coconut oil. I now have MCT oil and use 1 Tbsp of each...still working up to the 2 TBSP of butter, just can't get my head around it.

Egads007

Sas and all...coffee is paleo, just don't load it with whitesugar and use full fat cream if you want to lighten.

Sas - I'm the same with breakfast, blech. I generally eat after the gym (11 am) There's no hard and fast on timing. Eat when you're hungry, mindful of carbs and eating real food. I've taken a screenshot of a basic list and pantry list for you...if you want different let me know...I've got a ton of resources online I can post. Lists areat bottom of this reply.

Vamp - that drink sounds, ummmm, well...not...how do I say this....that sounds pretty funky...how does it taste???

Basic weekly:

To stock pantry:

vampeyes

Egads - I drink my coffee black and surprisingly I like the Keto Coffee.

Now can someone tell me why a mini cucumber just cost me 2 net carbs??? What the heck? Should have checked that out before eating it.

Egads007

Vamp - cucumber is considered a low carb veg, at 4 grams per cup with 1 gram of fibre. I’m thinking the minis are higher in carbs as many ‘young’ veg are, hence the term ‘sweet’ being used. Still, it’s very low. If we get all our complex carbs from veg you’ll be hard pressed to exceed daily limits if you’re sticking to the 50 and under level (will still be in ketosis. To maintain your 20 per you’re going to have to keep a close watch on all foods until you’re familiar with the regime. Have you exercised today? If so you’ll be allowed a few extra depending on your intensity. So I’m going to try your Keto coffee tomorrow, you’ve got me curious lol...will let you know how it goes glad you posted it!

solfeo

I've mentioned some cautions when doing keto long-term. I have this big explanation in mind that never comes because I am super busy with work, and I have guests coming and so much preparation to do in my already limited time. I think I'll just mention these items as they come up in the discussion rather than trying to make a complete job of it in one post.

Carb cheats when your body is in a chronic state of ketosis are not a good idea. If you're going to splurge you can eat low carb foods you wouldn't normally eat (like cheese in my case, or whatever particular foods you choose not to eat regularly) but eating a large amount of carbs will mess with your adapted metabolism big time, and it can turn keto into something more unhealthy than if you were eating more carbs all the time.

It's more complicated than this, but the most basic explanation is that when you are chronic keto your body greatly reduces insulin production. This is a good thing for cancer, and one of the reasons keto is recommended for it. Cancer loves insulin. If you splurge on a high level of carbs, you will excrete more insulin, but it won't bring your blood sugar back down within a few hours in a normal manner. You can end up with pre-diabetic levels of blood glucose for several days, especially if you don't exercise to burn it off.

This is also why you would fail a blood glucose tolerance test on keto. You can reverse this effect by eating over 100 carbs per day for a few days. I've taken a keto break just to test that for myself, and everything went right back to normal.

One cheating episode every once in a great while won't do much damage, because your cells are less accepting of the elevated blood glucose when you are keto adapted (research shows something like 60% less), but if you're having regular cheat days you can see the potential for more consistently elevated blood glucose, and that is a very bad thing. Glucose makes cancer cells very happy, and we want to deprive and disappoint them every chance we get.

Egads007

The best time for carbs (complex) is following a workout, it helps synthesize proteins, glucose etc to build bone and muscle. Carbs are essential (along with protein & fat) in the repair and building process. If you’re working out hard (cardio & srength training) on 20 grams per day you’re going to reverse the good. Don’t burn out all the calories you’ve just knocked off, but your intake does have to rise to accommodate your body.Training days are when I see 80-100. Rest days I stick to 40-50, sometimes less. Solfeo is correct, cheats can cause damaging spikes, lead to impulsive eating & hunger/craving. Treats need to be as occasional as possible.

solfeo

Vampeyes - I would skip the butter in the keto coffee and use more MCT or coconut oil instead, because of the hormones. I have tried it, but don't drink it myself because I would rather get my calories from eating good food.

The big study that linked reduced survival to dairy products found this effect in women who ate more than one serving of full-fat dairy daily. I would not recommend eating two tablespoons of butter every day. Organic dairy might be slightly less concerning, but even organic milk come from pregnant cows.

Study Suggests Full-Fat Dairy Products May Be Linked to Worse Survival

Egads007

Grass fed dairy products are a go

solfeo

I actually meant organic grass fed is slightly less concerning, but forgot to add the grass fed. The reason I believe only slightly better for ER+ breast cancer in particular is strictly because of the hormones in the fat. You don't have to inject a cow with hormones for its milk to contain estrogen. Levels will be lower in grass fed dairy, but not non-existent.

Not judging anyone else's choices but I do like to explain why I make a decision for myself.

Meg101

Thank you Solfeo and Egads for the tips. Very informative.

Meg

vampeyes

Thanks Sofelo, I will x the butter for sure. The only reason I have been doing it is to get my fat intake up.

So glad to have you knowledgeable women here to help guide me through this!

cowgal

Well one more meal to go for day one. Having some beef and some roasted zucchini and mushrooms for supper. Then done for the rest of the day other than water. How did everyone else do today?

Does anyone else know how long I will need to give up dairy before I can try to add it back in to see if I have a problem with it? It sure would be handy to add a little bit of it here and there.

SpecialK

cowgal - for the elimination diet I did, you had no intake for a minimum of 21 days. When you add back in you need to consume 4-5 times within a week in isolation - don’t eat anything else you have eliminated during that week.