What do you use to lower cholesterol without statins?

voraciousreader

Melissa....the point is....there are studies pointing to one thing or another which IMHO adds up to nothing!  With the latest controversy regarding risk factors and who needs a statin, I find this thread somewhat ridiculous!  Eseemed physicians  are quibbling over the guidelines as we quibble about how we can lower our cholesterol numbers while our cholesterol numbers may not be as important as all of us previously believed.  And, I might add, that doing all the things mentioned, might cause other problems.  

Has anyone read Paul Offit, MD's book, Do You Believe in Magic?  Great book!  Talks about how our generation has embraced "natural" substances and we have a belief system that if it's natural then it's better.

I'll finish by saying my 89 year old educated, medical professional mother, who grew up during the dawn of antibiotics believes that there's a medication or supplement for everything.  She's also a glutton and her idea of exercise consists of walking to the fridge. Recently, she almost died from a kidney stone. Seems she's manufacturing them rapidly.  When she was finally referred to a nephroligist who went over her meds and supplements he asked, "Who's prescribing all of these things?"  It seems many of her supplements, including Vitamin D might be the culprits!  Meanwhile, her cholesterol numbers are through the roof and she eats mounds of butter, mayo, steaks and ice cream!  I told her doctor, " She's made it this long...why bother checking her cholesterol numbers?". The only reason I think there is to measure is because if there was a competition for living the longest with the highest cholesterol numbers...she'd be the winner!

Sisters!  Take a deep breath!  Breathe out slowly and RELAX!  Let the physicians duke it out and tell us once and for all how relevant to good health our cholesterol numbers are.  Until then, DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD!  That's what my mom does and she's still kicking!

Momine

Wyo, taking pills to make up for a poor diet is probably not a great idea. You need veggies and you need 3 squares a day.

abigail48

but poor diet doesn't make you feel good

cp418

My goal to lower my cholesterol level is from recent research observing cholesterol may fuel breast cancer recurrence in hormone positive patients.  (I was not focusing on the heart health although that is a benefit too.)  This breast cancer - cholesterol link has been identified from several different medical research facilities, Duke University Medical School, I think it was Thomas Jefferson Univ in Philly, and another recent one which I forgot.  If you GOOGLE around you will find the more recent articles published within the last 6 months.  Breast cancer is a devious disease and finds other means to fuel itself - so my interest is when a patient goes off Tamox or AI and has elevated cholesterol are these patients at hgiher risk for recurrence/relapse?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131128141357.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131009105753.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120403153535.htm

http://www.healthcentral.com/breast-cancer/c/78/164633/identified-cholesterol/

http://oncozine.com/profiles/blogs/how-cholesterol-is-fueling-the-growth-and-spread-of-breast-cancer

http://www.topnews.in/health/high-cholesterol-fuels-growth-and-spread-breast-cancer-218473

voraciousreader

CP...I had read those same stories.  However, you STILL have to balance whether you will be creating another problem when ingesting supplements.  I might add that I am of normal weight, exercise daily, have normal cholesterol levels and got breast cancer, while my mother and sister are obese and morbidly obese, respectively, have very high cholesterol levels and were never diagnosed with breast cancer.

Now, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the researchers' studying of the mechanics of what causes and what might fuel breast cancer, but as of now, I don't think there is anything more or even less that any of us can do to prevent a recurrence.  And if there was something that we could all do, then we all would be doing it.  

When I was first diagnosed, my surgeon gave me a list of things to do and don't do.  When I looked over the list it appeared that I was already doing everything!  So with the paper in hand I asked, "What else should I be doing?". He then took the paper out of my hand and threw it in the garbage!

CP...I live on Long Island, also known as the breast cancer capitol of the world.  Breast cancer has been studied here arguably longer than any place else because of the incidence of breast cancer that occurs here.  I have access here and in Manhattan to world famous physicians.  I even have contacts with the folks who run the Austrian breast cancer project.  If they recommended that I do something to prevent a future recurrence I would scream it from the roof top.  Sadly, breast cancer, unlike most other cancers is trickier to "cure.". So rather than knock my brains out and ruining my vision from reading and digesting all these inconclusive studies, I choose to accept with grace that I've been treated for breast cancer and will resume living my life and let the chips fall where they might unless one of my doctors can offer me something clinically proven that the benefits will outweigh my risks.

MelissaDallas

i would add that these studies don't talk about HIGH cholesterol. They are simply talking about metabolism. I haven't seen anything that correlated cholesterol levels (high or otherwise) to outcome. 

Momine

Voracious, I think you are right, unfortunately. However, I am on an AI, which is known to raise cholesterol. I really want to avoid the statins as long as I can, so I try to keep it at an acceptable level with diet and exercise (working so far).

lightandwind

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/45283610_T...

The study below is ancient but I wonder if iodine's effect on lipid metabolism could provide a missing link.

Mechanism of Iodide Action on Cholesterol Metabolism - Circulation

This one discusses that the mechanism associated with iodine's impact on lipids, is at least partially responsible for iodine's effect on inhibiting proliferation of MCF-7

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17158760.

voraciousreader

momine.... I am also on an AI and my father succumbed to heart disease at a very early age.  That puts me at risk for heart disease so I am very concerned about a possible link of an AI to heart disease. However, one needs to be certain that there is a strong link between the two, as well as with breast cancer BEFORE one should try to "improve" their cholesterol numbers.  As you are probably aware, lowering cholesterol numbers using a statin has only been proven to be helpful for those people who are at high risk of a heart attack. And there in lies the controversy.  What all the clinicians are trying to understand is with the exception of that group, who else can benefit from a statin without high risk of side effects? Keep in mind as many as 50% of people who do go on to have heart attacks and aren't taking a statin, have NORMAL cholesterol numbers.  

Now getting back to the association between AIs and cholesterol numbers, my cardiologist told me to not worry.  Why? Because Tamoxifen might be artificially LOWERING cholesterol number....However, I've never read anything with respect to that hypothesis.

So....I'm sticking with a diet that makes me comfortable and exercise because it makes my muscles feel good.  And I read the journals until my eyes and brain had enough.  It's the best I can do with the cards I've been dealt!

Anonymous

Thank you Light. You hit the research jackpot!

If iodine deficiency causes hypothyroidism--> and hypothyroidism causes high cholesterol--> then high cholesterol and breast cancer could have a common root cause in iodine deficiency.

I guess high cholesterol is just a symptom of getting sicker, not a cause in itself.

Momine

Except a lot of  people with high cholesterol (and/or breast cancer) are not either hypothyroid or iodine deficient. Thyroid problems may well be a factor for some people, but I know for a fact that this is not the case for me.

cp418

I am interested in the metabolism and genetic makeup because I realize each person is different and will respond or not to a particular diet or medication.  I too am trying to avoid statin medication by tweaking my diet and consulting with a nutritionist who treats cancer patients and other conditions.  I'm aware my genetic makeup is the cards I've been dealt - but knowing individual makeup provides better guidance for our medical team.  Frankly I'm done with the days of blind treatments given to patients as if one size fits all.  We know it doesn't work that way.  Patients are proactive now and need to ask questions and be involved in their heathcare. So yes IMO, I am concerned in my increasing lab results as related to my metabolism  - - diet/exercise are far better way to avoid statins and more drugs with negative side effects.  For example, MTHR gene defect is very common and different variations are seen in about 30% of the general population. Dependent on which mutation will impact how you respond to a particular diet, supplements and certain medications which should be avoided.  IMO - this knowledge is helpful to patients to help the chips better fall in our favor.  Here are some interesting articles posted in the News forum.....   

 Part 1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Dr.-Wendie-Trubow/estrogen-metabolism_b_3353079.html

Part 2

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Dr.-Wendie-Trubow/breast-cancer-prevention_b_3430507.html

Part 3

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Dr.-Wendie-Trubow/breast-cancer-prevention_b_3498202.html

MTHR genetic defect

http://doccarnahan.blogspot.com/2013/05/mthfr-gene-mutation-whats-big-deal.html

https://sites.google.com/site/drjoneskids/mthfr

http://www.dearpharmacist.com/2013/08/08/2394/

 

sgreenarch

HI, All:

I am going for my 6 month appointment with my onc tomorrow and our big discussion will be about my out of the barn, soaring cholesterol levels. Total is now 285 after one year of being on Femara (was normal during 2.5 years on tamoxifen,and really low before that...) LDL was 123 last year (recommended to be below 160.) Climbed to 165 after six months of femara, and LDL is now a whopping 186. This is totally unacceptable to my GP (who sent me to see a cardiologist who also screeched about these high levels and sent me home w a prescription for statins. Haven't started it yet, want to speak with the onc first.) 

I am the poster child for doing everything right to lower cholesterol by diet, exercise to no avail. I am not old, 53, eat right, close to ideal weight (though I've gained 6 lbs since starting femara) and I exercise a lot. I take omega 3 tabs. I haven't taken niacin, apple cider vinegar, fiber pills, or gone totally vegan (have very occasional egg or slice of pizza.) I guess I could use to lose 10 lbs and exercise 2 hours a day rather than 1, but I'm not convinced that this will bring these levels down enough. All drs are convinced that this is a dramatic example of femara causing this spike. I am feeling so frustrated that fighting one health problem (breast cancer) is possibly causing another (artery clogging.) My grandparents all had heart disease, so I can't take this lightly. I don't think dropping femara is an option as onc said it's my best fight against very hormone pos ILC. Just feeling anxious and frustrated tonight. Thanks for listening... 

georgie1112

Thank you, ladies for your research and links. I know this is something I need to pay attention to as heart disease is in my family and my cholesterol is high though ratio is good.

lightandwind

I was just speaking specifically to the lipid metabolism aspect which is associated w/ breast cancer in the research, not specifically thyroid or high cholesterol. 

Thanks cp, will have a look.

Fallleaves

cp418, thanks for all the articles, which are very interesting. I'm with you in my dislike of blanket medical treatments with little consideration of our individual characteristics (for example tamoxifen given to everyone, without testing to determine if you are one of the 10% that don't metabolize it, or have low vitamin D levels, which also affect metabolism). I'm looking forward to the day, which I think is rapidly approaching, when we all have our genomes mapped to determine which genes are affecting our health and which treatments are appropriate.  

There seems to be very conflicting data on statins and cancer risk: http://www.fhcrc.org/en/news/spotlight/imports/long-term-use-of-statins-and-postmenopausal-breast-cancer-risk--.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24295174

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=j+natl+cancer+inst+2011+oct+5+103+(19)%3A+1461-1468

(I wonder if the Puget Sound study that showed a higher risk of BC in statin users compared women with low cholesterol to women with high cholesterol, or if they looked at women with high cholesterol taking statins vs. women with high cholesterol taking nothing.) 

sgreenarch, that has to be frustrating, doing so many things right, but getting high cholesterol levels anyway because of the Femara. It's kind of like, "damned if you do, and damned if you don't"!

lala1

My cardiologist wanted me on statins and niacin with a cholesterol total of 196 and and LDL of 150. I resisted. My MO said I should try a 3 month trial of diet and exercise combined with the fact that Tamoxifen usually lowers cholesterol by about 10%. I joined a gym and added oatmeal to my diet as well as 2 Tbl flaxseed daily. After 4 months, my cardiologist ran my numbers and total was down to 170 and LDL down to 120. He smugly said that I should be glad I listened to him about taking the niacin and statin. I then told him I'd never started either one and this was all diet and exercise. Have to say, pretty much shut him up!

Another point to all this, my triglycerides were always about 60. After my diet/exercise trial they came back at 120 (still normal but double the usual). I had my blood glucose tested to be sure I wasn't heading towards diabetes and that was normal. My dr figured out that my daily bowl of oatmeal was the culprit (carbs increase your triglycerides) so I now alternate with a fruit smoothie with flaxseed and my triglycerides are now down to 85.

Fallleaves

lala1, I'm doing the ground flaxseed, too. Were you putting it in the oatmeal as well as the smoothies? It's fun when you can shut a cardiologist up! Nice job on your numbers.

What's really frustrating about the breast cancer-cholesterol link is it's the HDL that's implicated, not the bad cholesterol (LDL)!

cp418

This is great sharing information, links and experience!  Always more to learn and trying ot figuring out what works for the individual!   

lala- VERY interesting how your labs really changed and how your diet changes affected your trig levels with the oatmeal carbs.  Good to know as I've been using breakfast oatmeal daily for the fiber intake.  This reminds me of when I was consuming (too much) Kale smoothies and salads (daily) and may have affected my cholesterol issues triggering elevated TSH levels.  Everything in moderation and BALANCE!

 

fallleaves - yes, those conflciting studies and information is really confusing!  Adding to the confusion or details is 'type' of statin medication whether hydophillic or lipophillic.....

voraciousreader

lala...I'd check with your physician regarding niacin.  Along with the latest recommendation coming from the American College of Cardiologists regarding statins, they questioned the use of niacin...

cp418

falleaves - Exactly about the elevated HDL!!  Yes - certain supplements and medications will rise the HDL even further while you attempt lower elevated LDL and total cholesterol levels.  So if you already have elevated HDL > 100 which continues to go up - then what?  I'm hoping one jelly donut per week will help.   

Fallleaves

Lol, cp418, if the jelly donut works you can write a book called "The Jelly Donut Solution" and make a mint! (Although, personally, I'd prefer the Boston creme solution)

Heidihill

Wonder if the effect of statins on bc risk would be related to effect on glucose intolerance? Seems some statins raise diabetes risk while others lower it (pravastatin and fluvastatin).

http://www.bmj.com/press-releases/2013/05/23/statin-use-linked-increased-risk-developing-diabetes-warn-researchers

sgreenarch

Hi. Just came back from half yearly checkup with onc. Showed her cholesterol numbers and she said that there's nothing to talk about; I've got to take Femara and these cholesterol numbers are dangerously high. Femara is causing the high cholesterol but said there's no choice but to take statins. GRRRRRRRRRRRR! I've done 2.5 years on tamoxifen, and now one year on Femara, and she says I'll need AT LEAST another five years on femara. I really like my onc and think she's extremely well read, up on things, and I've chosen to trust her but I worry that no one is thinking outside of the box here, and the easiest thing is to just put me on statins. To have high numbers like this (almost 300 total, LDL 185...up from less than 200 and LDL of 123 a year ago) is not dangerous for a year and I could even do a three month experiment with extreme diet and exercise, and I don't know what else, but no one thinks I can get the numbers down enough even with all that. 

The danger is in having high numbers like this for years. I can take three months to try...what would you all recommend? (Feeling so down right now...I went from someone who never took a pill to taking asthma meds, femara and now maybe a statin. I know things could be much worse, I do have perspective. I'll take the damned pill.) I also wonder if someone should be looking at other underlying causes of this radical jump, i.e., thyroid (my blood tests were normal, but perhaps we need to look more deeply?) etc. This hormonal stuff is such a complicated thing to balance but I don't even know where to start if I'd want to figure it out further. Who to go to. Oy...thanks.

cp418

These treatments are so frustrating to deal with all these side effects.  IMO - I would start start by researching the different types of statins to better help you discuss which to take with your doctor.  See fat- soluble versus water-soluble as they are different and the studies show different results dependent on which were used.  Do your research and ask questions.  Are you able to have access to a nutritionist who has a background with breast cancer patients and their treatments?  I'm open minded about supplements which is why I visit this forum - maybe a sitosterol (plant sterol supplement) might help...... Maybe reviewing your diet might provide some information to assist you.  Again, only use a supplement under the direction of your nutritionist/doctor as some are safe and others should be avoided.  Many of us here are struggling with this same health issue.  We all wish there was a better way...

 

ruthbru

I've been having computer problems & can only check in for a minute, so have just scanned the last couple pages. One quick note; if you are taking niacin, do NOT take no-flush, it will not be as effective for lowing cholesterol. Take slow release niacin if you are concerned with flushing. I take a brand called ''Slo Niacin", which I get a Walmart. It has been extremely effective for me.

voraciousreader

Ruth...Here's the latest guidelines from the American College of Cardiologists regarding statins and also niacin:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/early/2013/11/...

In the recommendation they refer to TWO niacin studies:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ACC/37...

Check with your physician to see if you should still be taking the niacin....

LtotheK

Tamoxifen is most assuredly not lowering my cholesterol.  That may be for a few reasons.  The first is, whatever is true for the over 45 set is often the opposite for the under 45 set.  My broken record.  From bone density (Tamoxifen can attack it in pre-meno women), to cholesterol--no one knows.

I have to take the Tamoxifen.  I have to take the Vitamin D. I have to take magnesium, otherwise I never go to the bathroom thanks to the Tamoxifen.  And I take biosil, because it makes me feel proactive about what a sh** show my hair is post-Taxotere.

Other than that, my main issue with the cholesterol isn't that I buy into the hype, it's that my insurance is dependent on good numbers, and without good numbers, my doctors will most assuredly start me on statins.

I'm back on oatmeal, and super-thanks for the fasting info!

ruthbru

Thanks for the links, voracious. It is definitely a controversial topic. Something I found interesting in the second link was when I went into the 'comment' section, some of the comments really ripped the study.

Sadly, I can't talk to my long time doctor because he retired just a couple weeks ago & I haven't decided whom to go to now (and my oncologist just moved to Texas....could it be me ?).

Everybody has to look at their own situation and decide how much faith to put into any study (and into any medication/treatment etc.  too). But, for me only, I know that niacin has worked. My mother's family it riddled with heart disease....almost every last relative, male & female, has had major issues (my mom had two heart attacks & an angioplasty). My two siblings, both younger than me, have serious heart problems, had various procedure done, been hospitalized, are on statins because of their very high cholesterol, travel with nitroglycerin, and take bags full of pills every day. I have been on niacin for 9 years; and my daily pill consummation consists of a multi-vitamin, a low dose aspirin, some calcium, and niacin. I have kept track of all my numbers over the years, and taking it has flipped my HDL/LDL ratio around. When I started my ratio was pretty bad (especially for my family history) at 3.8. Today it is 1.66; which is really, really good.

georgie1112

Ruth,

I also noticed that the comments criticizing the study made sense to me.  They didn't test niacin alone. Will do more reading when my life gets simpler. But appreciate the topic!!! Not ready to give up on niacin. My brother is a scientist and swears by it. But need to check it out for myself. I had heard conflicting things about niacinamide which does not cause flushing. Sorry but not able to research now...