What do you use to lower cholesterol without statins?
Comments
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momoschki - I recognize your supplement names from Thorne laboratories which is very reputable for quality products. Its possible the individuals with bad reactions used other products or were already taking other medications causing these serious adverse events.
For those of you taking Metamucil - how often/ how much do you take daily. I think the container said one teaspoon was 5-6 grams of fiber per serving - so do you take twice a day? I would love to get my total cholesterol below 200!!!
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no, people taking red yeast rice should have liver lab monitoring regardless of the brand they take because it is known to cause liver problems just like pharmaceutical statins do. They did not necessarily take too much or have a bad cross reaction. -
Yes - I understand and agree. I don't know the details behind the patient my oncologist mentioned - but he does chem labs for liver profile at each visit with other lab tests. So don't know.....
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I know I shouldn't be posting this but I am since I read the book that this article is from:
"The Vitamin Myth: Why We Think We Need Supplements
Nutrition experts contend that all we need is what's typically found in a routine diet. Industry representatives, backed by a fascinating history, argue that foods don't contain enough, and we need supplements. Fortunately, many excellent studies have now resolved the issue..."
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The concern that I have about Red Yeast Rice, is that there is no certainty with respect to dosage, as this lab has found:
"Cholesterol-lowering "dietary supplements" still pose serious problems. ConsumerLab.com has found that tests of eleven red yeast rice supplements revealed large differences in levels of cholesterol-lowering statin compounds. [Red Yeast Rice Supplements Review. ConsumerLab.com, May 20, 2011] A potentially toxic contaminant, citrinin, was found in four of the products. Red yeast rice contains the cholesterol-lowering statin compound lovastatin, the active ingredient in prescription Mevacor. Studies have found that red yeast rice can lower cholesterol significantly, but based on the suggested serving sizes of the products, ConsumerLab.com found that only four would deliver a daily dose of lovastatin in the range used in the studies. Among the eleven products in the report, the amounts of lovastatin compounds ranged from 0 mg to 3.5 mg per 600 mg of red yeast rice. The amounts in some products was considerably lower than those found in tests done several years ago. Although lovastatin is a very useful drug, it is not suitable for self-medication because optimal cholesterol-control should be tailored to individual risk factors and be medically monitored. The FDA has ordered at least eight sellers to stop marketing red yeast rice products for cholesterol control, but the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 permits their sale as "dietary supplements." Labels on red yeast rice products generally do not disclose lovastatin content due to concern that the supplement will be considered an unapproved drug by the FDA and removed from the market. This makes it difficult to determine the proper dosage or compare product"
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Furthermore, as Dr. Offit has mentioned in his book, on a biochemistry level, your body doesn't know the difference between the lovastatin delivered to your cells from Red Yeast Rice or from Mevacor. So wouldn't it make sense to take the one that is FDA regulated? Make no mistake about it, I too, have issues with the FDA. However, when I or the DH take supplements, we take those that are pharmaceutical grade and take them under an endocrinologist's supervision.
Furthermore, I would agree that there clearly is a dearth of "experts" in the field of oncology and cardiology as it relates to diet. That said, the DH and I work closely with the researchers and clinicians that study statins and rhabdomylosis and I can tell you with certainty, statins are powerful drugs that should be used very carefully...and I include Red Yeast Rice in the category of statins.
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Physicians should be testing patients CK levels...that's muscle enzymes.
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I eat loads of almonds. Apparently they help lower cholesterol along with plenty of moderate to strenuous exercise. -
Voracious, I worked in a pharmacy in high school and college. The pharmacist told me that, for the most part, all tons of vitamins did for you was give you very expensive pee.
He also said on the natural vs. synthesized vitamins that your body uses them at a molecular level and does not recognize any difference. A chemical is a chemical. -
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I have a hard time getting my cholesterol below with diet and exercise, but after having had large volume ascites with cancer a couple of years ago cannot risk making my liver mad again. -
My sister started taking Red Yeast Rice (on the advice of a friend, not a doctor) and had such a terrible reaction to it that she ended up in the emergency room. Really, anything that you take in large doses, even if it is sold over the counter, should be if approved of and then monitored by a doctor. I've done my over-the-counter Niacin for years now, but always with monitoring by GP to see if it continues to be effective and if it is not causing problems otherwise (such as with the liver).
Since most of us don't eat as a balanced diet as we should, I think a multi-vitamin is smart. Since it is almost impossible to get enough vitamin D through diet, I think a supplement for that is important (also doing periodic blood tests to see if the amount you are taking is doing the trick). Other than those, I stay away from messing with the body chemistry.
edited to add that I do take a low dose aspirin daily.
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Here is a story written by, IMHO. one of medicine's most respected physicians, Jerome Groopman about Dr. Offit's book:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114899/paul-offits-do-you-believe-magic-reviewed-dangers
I also want to mention that in Dr. Groopman's book, How Doctors Think,http://www.amazon.com/How-Doctors-Think-Jerome-Groopman/dp/0547053649, he mentions a tough case that he collaborated on with the DH's doctor.
From my personal experience, the bottom line for me is that unless one has a metabolic disorder that is clearly defined and measured, I would be careful about introducing any vitamin, herb or supplement.
Now, with all the hoopla made these past few weeks with respect to statins (and I would include Red Yeast Rice in the mix because it is a naturally occurring statin) and heart disease and statins and cholesterol and cancer....I think we are still decades away from understanding who EXACTLY benefits from lowering cholesterol. Furthermore, as Dr. Topol pointed out, statins can have other complications besides rhabdo....and that is, they can actually CAUSE diabetes...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/opinion/the-diabetes-dilemma-for-statin-users.html So....until we TRULY understand who EXACTLY NEEDS TO LOWER their cholesterol AND from my personal experience, the bottom line for me, is that I would be careful about introducing any vitamin, herb or supplement into my body until we fully understand cholesterol's role in the body.
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It has been said before, but it merits repeating. Total cholesterol is only part of the cholesterol picture. Total cholesterol is the sum of HDL (good cholesterol) and LDL (bad cholesterol). Those numbers are then figured into a ratio with each another, which determines cardiovascular risk factors; a lower ratio is the aim. My cholesterol was around 200 for a long time, but my ratio was low because my good cholesterol was so high. My numbers look even better now thanks to breast cancer, which forced me to improve an already good diet. I cut out most read meat and eat only low-fat dairy. I also added omega 3 capsules. In addition, I found out I have hypothyroidism, which can increase cholesterol and interfere with vitamin D absorption. The hypothyroidism and heart disease connection is well documented in medical literature, and some experts believe that nearly 1/4 of women at or near menopause suffer from the condition. Some studies ( though not all) have linked hypothyroidism to breast cancer. Food for thought. -
Absolutely!
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yes, I'm aware that ratio is as important as total cholesteral. -
The DH had cardiac triple by-pass surgery last year. Without ever taking a statin his cholesterol numbers had and continue to be "perfect." Go figure.
Furthermore, one of my closest friend's husband hard a heart attack last year. He's Indian. He's tall and slender and has rarely consumed meat in his life AND has normal cholesterol numbers. When he had the heart attack, he was seen by the head of cardiology at Mass General Hospital. The chief said to him, "No one could have predicted twenty four hours BEFORE your heart attack that you would have one."
Fifty percent of patients who have heart attacks have NORMAL cholesterol numbers. Statins DO SOMETHING to the body that makes it less likely for a person to have a heart attack who is of PRIMARY RISK of having one. Besides individuals who have already HAD a heart attack, medicine can NOT yet pinpoint EXACTLY who is at SECONDARY RISK of having a heart attack. And THAT is very well documented BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT'S CAUSING ALL OF THE CURRENT CONTROVERSY ABOUT WHO SHOULD TAKE A STATIN.
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VR - still reading through your links. For some reason the first one keeps hanging for me but I managed to read the first few paragraphs. The recent statin news has caused alot of confusion for patients and doctors IMO as Pro vs Con. My interest of course was the possible breast cancer connection for post-menopause patients. Again, conflicting research articles where some mentioned long term use (10 yr or more) doubled patients BC risk, others mentioned use increased risk for recurrence, while other describe 10% descrease risk with simvastatin study (I think it was the Danish one). All the negative side effects of statins seem to be brushed under the rug but they are the reasons patients stop using them. VR - I hear you about getting a baseline CK levels before starting statins - wonder how many Doctors do that for their patients as this test is typically not part of the Chem profile. Likewise, how many doctors tell their patients that statins decrease CoQ 10 levels which is necessary for healthy heart.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3536477/
jg10 - yes, the thyroid and breast cancer connection keeps coming up. I hear you as I have a similar lab profile as you describe with high HDL and borderline hypothyroid. Makes me wonder how many doctors (specialists - endocrinologist too??) do we need to see to get us in "balance" - ideally with healthy diet and exercise and minimal drug use.
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Exactly Voracious. My sister's thin, nonsmoking, little-drinking, little-red-meat-eating 56 year-old long-term beau died on her at her house one morning last summer. His most significant history was a dad with early MIs and he refused medical treatment and said he would refuse transport if they called an ambulance. He sais he felt better after a morning of chest pain and laid down to take a nap. He was dead when she checked on him ten minutes later. -
jg10, did you have any symptoms of the hypothyroidism? Were you heavy, for example? How did they DX? -
True. Aside from plaque causes by cholesterol, vascular spasms can also cause a heart attack in otherwise healthy individuals. This happened to my sister who is not only 47, has a healthy diet, low cholesterol, but also has no cardiac stenosis. Many factors, including stress and hormonal imbalances, can cause cardiac vasospasms. -
Yes - so true that we know of individuals who are thin - conservative life style without drink/smoking history yet heart attack or cancer dx. Likewise, also know several individuals who are not over weight but down right morbidly obese ( for years) and seem to have no issues. MIL is age 87 and sharp as a tack getting around with her weight issues. Makes me feel defective.... I think I'll go open that red bottle of wine and enjoy it.
edited to add - Obviously I'm confused by the media, research articles, doctors pertaining these mixed health recommendations. I feel they tend to make generalized drug recommendations to fit a certain Lab value they feel should be the ideal. However, we know each patient is an individual and should be treated as such - but I don't think we are quite there yet... (we need to Dr Topel to completely redo our system)
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cp418....With respect to getting a baseline CK blood test...This study should knock you over with a feather:
Ann Intern Med. 2002 Oct 1;137(7):581-5.
Statin-associated myopathy with normal creatine kinase levels.
Phillips PS, Haas RH, Bannykh S, Hathaway S, Gray NL, Kimura BJ, Vladutiu GD, England JD; Scripps Mercy Clinical Research Center.
Source
Interventional Cardiology, Scripps Mercy Hospital and University of California, San Diego, Medical Center, San Diego, California 92103, USA. inquire@impostertrial.com
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Muscle symptoms in patients who are treated with statins and have normal creatine kinase levels are not well understood.
OBJECTIVE:
To report biopsy-confirmed myopathy and normal creatine kinase levels associated with statin use.
DESIGN:
Case reports from preliminary analysis of an ongoing clinical trial.
SETTING:
Clinical research center in a community hospital.
PATIENTS:
Four patients with muscle symptoms that developed during statin therapy and reversed during placebo use.
MEASUREMENTS:
1) Patients' ability to identify blinded statin therapy and 2) standard measures of functional capacity and muscle strength.
RESULTS:
All four patients repeatedly distinguished blinded statin therapy from placebo. Strength testing confirmed weakness during statin therapy that reversed during placebo use. Muscle biopsies showed evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction, including abnormally increased lipid stores, fibers that did not stain for cytochrome oxidase activity, and ragged red fibers. These findings reversed in the three patients who had repeated biopsy when they were not receiving statins. Creatine kinase levels were normal in all four patients despite the presence of significant myopathy.
CONCLUSION:
Some patients who develop muscle symptoms while receiving statin therapy have demonstrable weakness and histopathologic findings of myopathy despite normal serum creatine kinase levels.
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Dr. Vladutiu is one of the leading researchers, along with Dr. Golomb, of statin myopathy and rhabdo. Dr. Vladutiu confirmed the DH's metabolic muscular dystrophy. His case is written up as well in the medical journals because his was the first case of his disorder to be diagnosed through blood sample, which confirmed the muscle biopsy. Today, patients with the DH's disorder no longer need muscle biopsies, thanks to Dr. V!
Again, I wish to stress that despite what we know, and what we THINK we know about statins and cholesterol, there is MORE that we don't know. These researchers that are mentioned in the above study are the LEADING researchers in statins. Unfortunately, the DH and I have come to know them through the years because they are also the LEADING researchers in rhabdomyolsis, which unfortunately the DH gets thanks to his very rare genetic metabolic muscular dystrophy.
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Momine,
I was not heavy, in fact I was extremely thin. My blood pressure became abnormally elevated and I was exhausted during and after mild exercise sessions. After doing some research I pursued thyroid testing instead of taking blood pressure medicine as was suggested. It was not an easy pursuit as most doctors accept very high TSH levels as normal, up to 5.0. Thyroid replacement to get my TSH below 1 was beneficial for reasons beyond blood pressure regulation and cholesterol management. Since thyroid hormones are important for muscular health, my post-breast therapy muscular pain improved to levels that seemed impossible after experiencing it for two years. Sorry if that's off topic, but muscular pain was brought up as a result of statin use, perhaps there is some connection... -
Always ask questions, and make sure you are comfortable with the answers, about any medical recommendations, for any condition what-so-ever!
* this come to mind because the last two times my DH went to the doctor (first with a lingering heavy cold/cough/sore throat etc., second for what I am sure was food poisoning); both times he came home with a prescription for antibiotics...without any tests (such as for strep throat) being done! The first time I let it go, but the second time I told him NOT to take the antibiotics (if it was food poisoning an antibiotic was not going to help!) and see what happened. What a surprise....after 24 hours of Gatorade and crackers, he was fine. GRRRRRR.
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jg10 - Thank you for describing your thyroid symptoms and results. I just looked up my TSH labs for the past few years:
Aug 2011 - 2.720
Jan 2012 - 2.890
Oct 2012 - 5.510
May 2013 - 4.630
Like you - it appears I will need to further question these TSH results and why no one is pursuing the reason for increases. DId you do thyroid antibody - antithyroglobulin AB testing? I am frustrated when I have to do all this research to challenge these doctors. To easy for them to prescribe BP or statin medications as if one size fits all patients. (end of rant)
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jg10, thanks so much. when you were initially tested, do you remember what your THS level was like? -
Well this is certainly interesting...... http://thyroid.about.com/cs/publicawareness/a/oprah_4.htm
Nutrient Interactions
Iodine and Thyroid Function
Very high intakes of cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage and turnips, have been found to cause hypothyroidism (insufficient thyroid hormone) in animals (68). There has been one case report of an 88-year-old woman developing severe hypothyroidism and coma following consumption of an estimated 1.0 to 1.5 kg/day of raw bok choy for several months (69). Two mechanisms have been identified to explain this effect. The hydrolysis of some glucosinolates found in cruciferous vegetables (e.g., progoitrin) may yield a compound known as goitrin, which has been found to interfere with thyroid hormone synthesis. The hydrolysis of another class of glucosinolates, known as indole glucosinolates, results in the release of thiocyanate ions, which can compete with iodine for uptake by the thyroid gland. Increased exposure to thiocyanate ions from cruciferous vegetable consumption or, more commonly, from cigarette smoking, does not appear to increase the risk of hypothyroidism unless accompanied by iodine deficiency. One study in humans found that the consumption of 150 g/day (5 oz/day) of cooked Brussels sprouts for four weeks had no adverse effects on thyroid function (70).
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/foods/cruciferous/http://www.vintageamanda.com/2013/02/the-kale-thyroid-connection/
I've been eating Kale in salad several times per week! Hmmm - I think this is corresponding my changes in TSH levels....
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Mommie, My TSH was 5.5. The 5 range is still considered normal in lab reports, even though in 2003 the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists recommended doctors aim for TSH levels of 0.3 to 3.0. This number is different for different people, but I've since learned that 5.5 is crisis for me. "Integrative doctors" are more likely to pursue endocrine testing.
CP418, diet can be tricky for those of us with breast cancer and hypothyroidism. Cruciferous vegetables are recommended to reduce breast cancer, but you are right, too many interfere with thyroid function. I consider cancer the more important issue and have not abandoned those vegetables, I'm just more meticulous with chasing my thyroid function tests. My antibodies were negative, meaning my hypothyroidism is not autoimmune.
Doctors simply lack the time to get too in depth with most patients, as they are swamped. I know--we have many doctor friends--my DH is a doctor and I am a nurse by training. The problem in my opinion lies in specialized medicine. Most doctors focus on their area of expertise and seldom speak with one another but what many of us need is a whole picture approach. That's why we have to become involved and proactive. -
jg10, thanks again. Very helpful to know this, and I agree with you on the rest. My onc was telling me this and that about bone loss, and I asked some questions (because I had read some stuff). He wasn't answering basically, and I finally asked him if he knew XYZ. He finally admitted that he doesn't and that maybe I should go see a specialist. -
I just want to thank everyone who replied to my initial post which may have bounced around the topic. The sharing of experiences, information, brain-storming will really help me communicate better my issues/concerns to my doctors. Thank you
Joann(I had appt this morning with GP and present my Kale diet, thyroid concerns, statins, etc and he listened and heard me. He advised immediate diet change and to wait a few weeks before proceeding with followup full thyroid and lipid profile tests.)
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