I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Anonymous

lassie11 wrote:

So Patmom - you are saying that the death panels already exist via the insurance companies?

I'm saying that the process exists every time a decision is made about treatment plans that considers cost vs. benefit.  That includes patients who ask if there are less expensive alternatives available, and doctors who prescribe a generic pill that may or may not work as well for a specific patient.  The health care law will formalize the process, but it will be harder to make adjustments to treatment plans under that more formalized system. 

AnnNYC

PatMom,

Abortion services are not available at all 800 Planned Parenthood facilities.  For example, of 68 facilities in New York State, 43 provide abortion services and 25 do not.  The single PP center in Mississipi does not.  Of 5 centers in Alaska, 3 do and 2 do not.  (I could go on, but I don't really have the time at the moment!)

At facilities that do provide abortion services, there are specific abortion providers who do NOT provide other basic gynecological services, specific days for procedures, specific rooms that are not used for other purposes, none of which are paid for with federal funds.

Medigal

Can anyone guide me to how I can find out what kind of healthcare system the US had before Medicaid was established in 1965?  I was trying to find it with google but can not bring anything up before Medicaid.  I know before 1965 we had what was called a "Charity Hospital" where the poor could go and it was an all-day affair to wait and see a doctor.  We usually brought our lunch.  Those were horrible days imo for our country and the sick poor.  I cannot remember having any access to any type healthcare system until 1965 when the poor were given Medicaid cards and we could actually make an appointment with a doctor and we would pay him whatever we could afford.  Usually about $5.00 for a regular visit.  However, it seems odd to think a country like ours had nothing for the poor until 1965 so I was just trying to find if this is true.  Thanks for any info you can provide.

Ellie1959

Try spraying Dawn dish soap diluted with water on them - I've had that work. Obviously this is in regard to Blue's post regarding bugs on plants- not Planned Parenthood or the anti-choice movement.

Anonymous

Medigal, I am not sure, I suspect that things were very different depending on what area you lived in, although I do remember my mother going to work for the hospital for a couple of years to "pay off" her bill.  I was very young, so I don't know if she got a paycheck and used part of that to pay the bill, or if she actually worked solely to pay the bill. 

Doctors and hospitals charged much less back in those days, most people paid for routine care out of pocket, and carried major medical insurance to cover catastrophic illness.  So many expensive tests and treatments that are routine today didn't exist then, so there was no need to pay for them, or for the expensive machines to run the tests.  Think CAT scans, and MRI's, and ultrasound, and on, and on....

It is hard to make direct comparisons because things that would have been signs of a middle class if not wealthy lifestyle at that time would apply to the poor today.  Things like having a phone, a color television, a car, a microwave, a dishwasher, a clothes washer and dryer. 

IronJawedBCAngel

Medigal,

Prior to Medicaid/Medicare, insurance was primarily a benefit from your employer, so the elderly and the unemployed did not have any.  They went without health care, or bartered for what they got.  I don't know that the medical community was as greedy then as it is now.  There was an interesting article in our local newspaper on an oncologist that was retiring, and he was lamenting the evolvement of our system to one filled with such greed that he could not treat his patients in the same way.  

There are several different articles on the subject.  This one is a brief history of insurance in this country.

http://www.suite101.com/content/history-of-health-insurance-in-america-a162647 

duckyb1

gracie1............No apology needed.............If this has happened before to you all, then I can understand why you would assume it happened again.............I just wanted everyone to know that it wasn't someone else pretending to be me..............I was just a little taken back with what appeared to be  a little bit of hostility on the thread............From when I first found this wonderful site I have seen only good advice, kindness, and compassion, even good suggestions for dinner, so you can imagine when I saw all this debate over politics, abortion, health care, and it does get "heated" i was surprised...............As I said no apology needed......I think we are all in this "cancer boat" together, and trying to paddle our way to  a cure for all of us.............Good luck to everyone, and hugs and prayers for the very ill, the chemo patients, radiation ladies, and the newbies who will never find a better group of people to help them through..........your a great bunch of gals................I feel privledged to know you all.

Medigal

Ironjaw:  Thanks for the link to the article.  That is more like what I was looking for to get some understanding of healthcare in past years.  Things sure have changed thankfully.  I just hope our politicians don't mess us the good in what we already have access to especially for the poor.  Much appreciation for your help.

konakat

You know what, we should all just get over ourselves, left, right, center, up, down.  Regardless of which country I have paid taxes to there have been items I absolutely hate to pay for and things I'm happy too.  Tough tooties for me for not being 100% pleased with where my taxes go.  No one will ever be 100% satisfied.  And too frickin' bad for everyone.  It's called living together in a society, a nation.  It's called cooperation, our elected officials hammering out agreements that are the least offensive/most pleasing to most people.  Time to act like a civilized, cooperative society.  Sorry for being b*tchy today but I'm tired.

Edit to add:  And could not all politicians at least try to be truthful?  Huh?  Is that to much to ask?  We ask it of our children (and friends, etc.) so surely they can make the effort.  Bah-humbug.

bluedahlia

Just got back from one of my tune-ups and was pleased to read some excellent posts.  KK, you can be as bitchy as you like....you still make a lot of sense.

leggo

konokat, excellent post, and basically how I feel. Having said that however, the honesty you mentioned is the most important trait in a politician to me. That's what I can't stand about Harper.....for someone who is so ultra-religious, he sure seems evasive and dishonest. Somehow, everything he says comes across as a lie. I'd rather have someone say that we have to raise taxes for whatever reason than just gloss over the issue. He also seems to always start every sentence with "I believe we've been very clear....blah, blah". Well, no, he never has been, at least not when I've been listening. The constant water sipping comes across as a stall-tactic/nervousness in an effort to make something else up. Is it just me?

duckyb1, thanks for accepting my apology.

konakat

It's not just you.  I can't wait until the debates this evening!  Harper's got a lot of 'splaining to do!!!

Today a miracle happened -- I have finally found a scarf that I don't look absolutely terrible in!!  I've always been a wig person but since I don't work anymore I can be less formal.  It's a nice cotton (or vicose?) bluey-greeny scarf from Reitmans -- on sale for $15!!  What's special it that it keeps whispering "go to the Caribbean, go, soon...".

Alpal

Hmmm - I've never had a scarf speak to me. Interesting. My advice is to listen to it and get thee to an island!

Anonymous

IronJawedBCAngel wrote:

I made the mistake of opening the page before logging in.
I am not sure what alternate reality people live in when they believe that denying women access to mammograms, pap smears, pelvic exams, blood pressure readings, and birth control is not going to result in more deaths from cancer, advanced gynocological disease, strokes, premature births, and unplanned pregnancies that are going to drive a higher demand for abortions.

If you are suggesting that PP provides mammograms.....they don't. 

I truly wish I had a Planned Parenthood to go to now, the closest is two hours away.

I have to go a little over two hours away to see my onc.  However, it IS my choice.  I could stay here and see one. 

This is very informative and short. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umI-gLEC6C8&NR=1

 

bluedahlia

Shirley, I hear voices that could easily be dubbed.  Do you believe everything you hear on the internet?  There are a lot of people out there who could make anything up.  Heck, I could probably make a youtube stating the complete opposite.  Isn't editing a wonderful thing.

Anonymous

As a teenager......I'll be 65 next month....I knew how to get pregnant.   My mom never talked to me about it.  In fact, she never talked to me about monthly menstrual cycles...nothing.  It just happened one day.  I think that kids today know exactly how to prevent pregnancies and how to GET pregnant.  I even knew there were condoms in the men's restrooms.  Kids talked back then just like they do today.  So, please don't give kids a pass as to being stupid about sex.

IMO, getting pregnant before marriage in this day and time is less frowned upon.  We know that girls can still go to school.  Back when I was young, no pregnant girl who was showing went to school.  I'm not saying that girls should not be able to get their education.  If the boys can continue their education after impregnating a girl then girls have that right also. 

I personally know of one woman (my best friend) who got an abortion.  She and her husband were having marital problems.....he was cheating on her.  It was very ugly.  Anyway, she was crushed.  She ended up pregnant.  And, they always planned their children via the rhythm method...isn't that what it's called.  It wasn't because of their religious beliefs.  It was because he was a chiropractor and did not believe in pills...thus no birth control.  First he accused her of getting pregnant on purpose.  Then he told her if she would get an abortion he would not leave her.  They went out of town for the procedure because they wouldn't dare be seen anywhere in this town because he was well known.  She never told ANYONE but me.  I tried to tell her that he was lying to her.  He lied.  He left and married the "other woman."  BTW, their first child was going off to college when he left.

I have posted about the young teenager, 15 yo, who was going to get an abortion.  My youngest DD told me about it because she was angry with her for the way she treated her sister.  I knew that I could not stand by and let this happen.  It took me days to make up my mind as to what to do.  I knew her background and the background of the young man.  They're parents were strong Christians and I'm sure they were very scared.  Anyway, I chose to have their minister come to my home and talk to them.  He persuaded them to not go through with it and that night he and his wife called the parents and they all met.  Eventually the two got married and had another child, a son.  The first one was a girl.  I believe she would be about 22 now.  The teenage mom disliked me very much for a very long time.  I can assure you that she would not change a thing now.  Yes, she missed being the teen she could have been.  But you know what...I missed being a kid myself, but it wasn't because I was pregnant.  It was because of my mother who was not all that nice to me.

bluedahlia wrote:

You got it E.  Complain about abortion and then once those babies are born, let them go hungry.  That's the TeeParty way!  Doesn't that make sense?

That's the way Margaret Sanger saw it.  She came from a very large family.  Her mom was Catholic, and as I understand it, her dad was an atheist.  I believe she blamed her mother's death on having so many children.  Do some research on this woman.

I only have two grandchildren.  I have three DDs...you'd think I'd have more.  I didn't plan my children and I knew how they were made.  We had our first child after 4 1/2 years of marriage.  I was only 23.  Then, boom, boom.....the other two were right behind the first.  When I had that first baby I could not bare the thought of going back to work.  I just couldn't leave her with anyone...not even my best friend who I posted about.  And, if my DD had aborted those two gks of mine, I would have been crushed. 

Life is so precious.  That's why each of us has fought the battle of BC...some have won (so far)...and some of us are still fighting.  I want to see my gks grow up to be teens.  But, will I?

My memory takes me back to the time when my DD and her DH had the ultrasound to find out the sex of the BABY.  I was there with the other grandparents.  It was exciting.  I couldn't be their for my grandson's ultrasound because I was going through treatment and was sick.

I'll have nothing else to say on this subject.  There's no point.  It's so sad to read the strong opinions here that these babies are not babies, only fetuses.  My doctor always called them babies.  We never referred to them as fetuses.  I never told anyone that I was carrying a fetus.  When my first was born I remember all the visitors who came...no one said, You had a fetus girl.

Anonymous

bluedahlia wrote:

Shirley, I hear voices that could easily be dubbed.  Do you believe everything you hear on the internet?  There are a lot of people out there who could make anything up.  Heck, I could probably make a youtube stating the complete opposite.  Isn't editing a wonderful thing.

The only thing changed on that video was the emphasis on the world "mammogram".  She didn't say it three times in a row.  Here's the entire video if you wish to watch it.  When you reach somewhere around the 4 minute mark that's when she says mammogram. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82QY65sVSA

bluedahlia

Shirley, you will be around a long time.

Many of the posters on this thread are pro-life.  They just don't want to force their philosophies on others.  Can't you see the irony in your stance.  You want these babies to be born, but are against any kind of monetary help for the mother, no free lunches at schools, no food stamps, etc. You don't want your tax dollars used to feed them.  They just become "freeloaders" by TeaParty standards.  You can't have it both ways. 

The examples you gave had a happy ending.  Life doesn't always have a happy ending.  Shit happens. 

bluedahlia

Maybe I should have made myself clearer re. the video.  I'm talking about all the phone calls.  How can you be sure that they are real and not staged?

pip57

I think that we are all prone to making decisions about what other people should do or not do based on our own experiences.  The problem with that is that we only have our own history.  Some of us just aren't able to comprehend any other reality than our own.  

Medigal

Shirley:  The video was very informative and unlike Blue, I don't feel it was fake or edited.  I don't see why something called "Planned Parenthood" would be expected to provide Mammograms.  What has that got to do with planning a family?  Frankly I think there should be other places for women to get their Mammograms.

Now as to a baby being called a fetus... I am not as educated as you and others seem to be about this stuff but I had always heard that after the "fetus" was so many months, you could not get an abortion.  I can't remember how many weeks or months it is but I got the impression that was because after that time the fetus was more a fully formed "baby" and it was illegal for a doctor to abort it.  I am not pro-abortion expect for certain extreme cases and certainly would be against any one using my tax dollars to use it as a contraception method.  

BTW, I find it very interesting that the Websters Dictionary names a Fetus as "the unborn young from the end of the eighth week to the moment of birth ".  Maybe this is where they came up with the idea that it wasn't a fetus before the eighth week and allowed abortions up to that date.  So whether your babies were referred to as fetuses or not, legally, it seems they were.  

bluedahlia

Medigal, because my first born was a still birth (full term), the doctors referred to her as a fetus.  I thought it was strange at the time, but that's the way of it.

crazy4carrots

Shirley:  I assume that is your real name and your own photo as avatar.  Please be careful about what you post regarding your best friend who had an abortion.  Perhaps she still does not want anyone to know about it, but this is an open forum and anyone can read what is posted here.

River_Rat

Lindasa, thanks for mentioning privacy concerns that we need to be aware of when discussing others here.

3monstmama

As far as privacy, I presume people realize that not only are their posts open to the universe but their birthdates as well.  I am never quite sure why anything other than year of birth would be necessary. . .

208sandy

Blue:

(Bar of) Ivory Soap peelings in water then spray on plants - the undersides of leaves is where the little beggars hide - it works like a charm.

Sandy

bluedahlia

Thanks ladies. I will wait till the weekend to get a spray bottle.  In the meantime the plant is on the back patio.

lassie11

How is my birthdate public on this forum? I didn't put it anywhere.

Medigal

Lassie:  I noticed that some people put their birthdays in their profile (why, I don't know) but yours isn't listed so I don't know what they are referring to either.  Now Shirley likes to remind us she is 65 (maybe she wants a present when she gets to be on Medicare ).  Just kidding Shirley!!  But I don't have a real birthday to give out so no one gets to know how old I really am, not even me!  (Thanks, Mom!)

crazy4carrots

Happy Birthday Medigal!  (well, just in case today IS actually your birthday!!!).  Actually, you could celebrate every day -- just in case.