I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

1Athena1

Growing up, we always had German Shepherds and/or Labradors. My screen name, Athena, is the name of my dearly beloved lab who really was mine. She lived for 14 years and also succumbed to this disease, although the type of cancer was never clear.

Notself, how does one calculate a weighted average as opposed to an average average - I have never known and always wanted to.

ananda8

Here is a link, although I don't know what "weight" was used in the calculation of the poverty level of the US.  I just used the terminology the reference site used.

http://www.mathwords.com/w/weighted_average.htm

I found this on Wiki about how the poverty rate is calculated. 

"the government's definition of poverty is not tied to an absolute value of how much an individual or family can afford, but is tied to a relative level based on how much the average individual makes."

I assume that the calculation for each State is based on a level relative to what the average citizen makes, so that would be the "weight". 

For example: the average income in New Hampshire is $66,654 and the average income in Mississippi is $36,650. 

1Athena1

I do know that there are plans to revise the way the poverty rate is calculated because the current system is considered to be outdated. It was first proposed in 1965 by a female analyst at the Social Security Administration (see: http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/papers/hptgssiv.htm), but with 1950s standards of living in mind. Who knows when the new system will emerge. For now, most experts agree that poverty levels as expressed by current estimates are probably underestimations of real poverty in the US.

otter

notself, I've seen those data, too.  There are other charts that say similar things about union employees making higher salaries than non-union employees doing the same jobs, and fringe benefits (health care) etc. being more generous in states that do not have right-to-work laws. 

But, right-leaning websites offer a completely different perspective, claiming things like the unemployment rate being lower in right-to-work states, and annual growth in personal income being higher in right-to-work states, etc. (e.g., http://www.mackinac.org/9422).

I'm not convinced that it's a fair analysis to claim that right-to-work laws are responsible for higher rates of poverty (Re: that "Right to Poverty" statement).  There are way too many other factors that can contribute to a state's poverty rate besides the right of an employee to decide not to join a union. 

In fact, according to this "International Union of Operating Engineers" site, the difference in average annual salary in right-to-work states, compared to the average in "States where workers are free to form strong unions" (their phrase), doesn't appear to be great enough to account for those poverty rate differences you cited:

And, according to other pro-union websites, that's actually the problem with right-to-work legislation:  it allows non-union workers to make salaries and enjoy benefits that are similar to those of union workers, without having to join the union or pay union dues (keeping in mind that the Taft-Hartley Act allows unions to charge non-union employees for the actual cost of the negotiations conducted on their behalf).

Anyway, I appreciate that I haven't been beaten up by those of you with strong ties to, and affection for, organized labor.  I am way out of my league on this issue, and I'm going to stop now before I push too far and y'all lose patience with me.

I need to recheck our federal tax return before it goes in the mail tomorrow.

otter

Anonymous

Do you think Wisconsin's poverty rate could be tied to teacher's job performance or better yet lack of performance?

Milwaukee also has the second highest drop out rate in the entire country (Detroit first)  Lowest in reading scores, highest minority population in prison etc etc etc.

Wis is failing because the teachers are failing, they really don't give a poopie about the kids they can influence, all they care about is their pay, benefits and early retirement.

Don't tell me it's the parents fault.  Marva Collins opened several charter schools in the worst part of the inner city.  She put out a call to minority men teachers.  Well, they left their jobs with the union and work long hours in a shirt and tie with a one year contract and guess what? 98.5% graduation rate.

I assume I will get a Brussels Sprout answer because you cannot intellectually disagree the point

1Athena1

Otter and Notself, I wager that the vastly different poverty levels arise from centuries of cultural and socio-economic differences and that the very existence of Right-to-Work systems in some states versus others may be as much symptom as cause.

bluedahlia

Do you think it has anything to do with the beer?  Haha!

covertanjou

Maybe they don't eat enough Brussels sprouts!

On a serious note, Otter, notself and Athena, great info. 

Alpal

Erica - what's the difference between Madison and Milwaukee? According to a post today Madison has a really impressive grad. rate. Is it the Superintendent or the Board or the dynamics of the city? Didn't Marva Collins insist on parental involvement? Or I am confusing that with another sucessful alternative school? I would never maintain that all teachers are good teachers. OTOH I don't think the importance of parental involvement can be denied. 

River_Rat

I might be totally off here but my cousins live in a right to work state and when we used to go visit them fairly regularly it seemed like a lot of people, including some of my cousins had two or three jobs.  So they ended up making a decent living but working horribly long hours.

ananda8

Erica1,

You have yet to provide a link to any of your statements.  Please provide links, as I do, so we can all see the sources of your information and other information those sources might disclose.  What is the date of the information you are relying on?  Is it current, say 2009 or 20010?  How is the rate calculated and is the rate in other cities calculated in the same way?

I don't object to your statements per se, but I need you to provide links to your sources.  Unless you start posting the sources for your statements, then I will feed you Brussels Sprouts from now on.

Anonymous

not your self

Exactly which FACT cannot you not find a link on your own for?  When I asked you , you would not provide a link

ananda8

I looked for a site that said Madison had the worst graduation rate in the country and could not find one.  If one is going to make statements then perhaps the burden for providing backup should properly fall on that person.  Do you disagree?  Please provide link that supports this statement and answer the rest of my questions.  If you don't know the answers, then say so.

When did you ask me for a link? I must have missed it.  Please give the details of the information you want a link for. 

AnneW

IJBCA--I missed the Clinton show on MSNBC. Was it good? I'll look for a rerun or an on-line broadcast.

Where are the CAT people??? Are we going to stand for all this dog talk?? Animal wars are coming, I can feel it! Could be a good change from brussel sprouts!

I have two cats. One fat, one skinny. Shelter rescues, of course. And it's very hard to type at the computer when fat cat is rolling off your lap!

1Athena1

AnneW, Fine, go ahead and throw down the gauntlet if that's how you want it, but I warn you, no cat discussion can escape the superiority of the Big Cats, most notably the King of Beasts!

Athena, dog lover and lion worshipper.

1Athena1

*******MILESTONE REPORT********

Just want to make the observation that this thread has reached more than 150 pages, more than 4,500 posts and almost 75,000 views and we are still here!!!

Maybe the third (or fourth?) time really is a charm!!

Enjoyful

I'm a cat person myself (AnneW - I'm giving you the *secret paw shake/cat noise*), though I'm living with my sister and her DOG.  DOG is sweet but also big, smelly, and high-maintenance.  Much like a man!  Hahahaha.

Erica and notself - Here's a link to a report issued in November 2010, showing Wisconsin's graduation rate at a very respectable 89%, far above the national average of 75%, AND, unless my eyes deceive me, Wisconsin's graduation rate is the highest in the country.  Erica, you should be proud to live in Wisconsin!

http://www.americaspromise.org/Our-Work/Grad-Nation/~/media/Files/Our%20Work/Grad%20Nation/Building%20a%20Grad%20Nation/Building%20a%20Grad%20Nation_FullReport_FINAL%2011-30-10.ashx

The report was a joint effort by three organizations, including the Everyone Graduates Center at Johns Hopkins University. 

Congrats, Erica!

Enjoyful

Here's some more union vs. graduation rates, just because this is fascinating!

For states with no or very limited union contracts, here are the graduation rates.  I also included my sources for all information presented.

"But a fairly large proportion of public school teachers are not covered under legally binding contracts. In fact, there are some 10 states in which there are virtually no legally binding K-12 teacher contracts at all (there are none in AL, AZ, GA, MS, NC, SC, TX, and VA; there is only one district with a contract in LA, and two in AR)."  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html

In the following list, the states are from the excerpted paragraph above, the rates are from the graduation report I referenced in my prior post:

States with No or Limited Union Presence vs. 2008 Graduation Rates:

AL  69.0
AZ  70.7
GA  65.4
MS  63.9
NC  72.8
SC  71.2
TX  73.1
VA  77.0
LA  63.5
AR  76.4

Total:  703

Average Graduation Rate for States with No or Limited Union Contracts:  703/10 = 70.3%

Average Graduation Rate for the US (from report in prior post):  75%

I realize that correlation does not equal causation, but it's interesting data nonetheless.

Alpal

Erica - guess you must have missed my question to you about the difference between Milwaukee and Madison. Since E posted the above link, the difference seems to be between Milwaukee and the rest of the state. Sounds like a local problem to me which could best be solved on the local level. No need to punish teachers all over the state for what's happening in Milwaukee?? Wisconsin must have some excellent teachers to have that kind of state wide graduation rate. Congratulations to all you cheeseheads! I'd be interested in seeing links to the dismal Milwaukee graduation rates. Looks like Milwaukee could take lessons from the rest of the state. 

ananda8

I love cats and dogs.  Although I only have cats.  If I had the room and the energy I would also have possums and perhaps baby raccoons.  

Possums are gentle sweet creatures and they get along really well with cats.  My cat invited  a possum into the house by means of the cat door,  Good thing I was home to prevent my cat's guest from accepting the invitation.  I want no un-house broken animals in my home!  Dogs hate possums and will kill them if given a chance.  Very strange.

Raccoons are a different story.  As babies they are as demanding and mischievous as a monkey.  They will really tear things up.  As adults, they are amazingly strong and even dogs are justifiably afraid of wild raccoons.

Working at a wildlife center when I lived in California, I had contact with possums, raccoons and almost every species of bird found around a Southern California beach community.  I highly recommend volunteering at a wildlife shelter if you love animals of all kinds.  Releasing and injured animal that has been brought back to health is a rush that is hard to describe.

leggo

Notself, congrats for volunteering at an animal shelter! When I was younger my mom and I would visit her friends farm. They kept a racoon as a pet and I was just mesmerized by it. They'd fill a baking pan with marbles and he'd play in there for hours.

ananda8

Raccoons have the softest hands and they love to pat things.  Babies don't have an off switch to their appetites and will keep eating until they can't hold anymore food in their stomachs.  If they are hungry they can scream so loudly that you thing your ears will fall off.  Raccoon love marshmallows and will follow a trail of marshmallows into their cages.  We used that trick if one got out of its enclosure.

Possums are very delicate eaters.  They love apples and grapes but will not eat the skin.  In fact the only thing left after they have eaten a grape or a slice of apple is the the perfectly clean skin.  We raised baby possums in the sleeve of an old sweat shirt.  We would tie off one end to make a bag and then stick the babies inside.  It kept them warm and was the best we could do to simulate a mother's pouch.  I could go on for hours about possums.  If anyone has any questions, I would love the excuse to talk more about the lovely creatures. 

PS.  Possums have opposable thumbs....on their hind feet!

Enjoyful

We used to have possums in our barn.  I'd come across them if I came out into the barn late at night.  They'd freeze in place and I wouldn't see them for a while, but when I did they'd freak me out.  They just look so......ratty. 

Now guinea pigs....they're the sweetest creatures on earth. Completely inoffensive and no rat-looking possum-behaving freeze action!

ananda8

Poor little scared possums....

Guinea pigs are too cute.  My nieces kids have one and I would love to hold it but it doesn't like strangers.  Boo Hoo.

River_Rat

A possum died in my front yard once.  I left it there all day because I thought it might be "playing possum."  I felt bad when eventually I figured out it was really dead.  We have both possums and raccoons roaming through the neighborhood at night.  The possums don't seem to cause much trouble but the raccoons make a real mess sometimes.

Alpal

I'm sorry but I just can't do the possum thing. Ewwww! I think it's' the tail that really bothers me. Raccoons are so cute looking. They tend to get in attics and walls and set up housekeeping. Then you have to pay the critter people to come rid your house of them. They catch them in humane traps and relocate them to the country. Sometimes they beat the critter man back to town! I have a friend who ended up with a whole family raising the younguns in the sofit (sp?) in her kitchen. The noise was unbelievable.

crazy4carrots

Well, this is interesting -- from Greenenergymarket.org, one of several sites exposing the real story behind it all (those absent Democrats better start reading through the ENTIRE bill):

Wisconsin Union-Busting Concealing a Koch Brothers Power Grab?

Autor: Susan Kraemer | Kategorije: Info Magazine | 22.02.2011 | 123 views The new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker was just one of many Tea Party/GOP candidates inserted into office by the Koch Brothers, under our new Supreme Court ruling allowing corporate bribery. Now their puppet Governor is trying to bust the remnants of unions in this country. But the Koch brothers are in the fossil energy business. The fossil energy industry hardly has to bother about such impediments. Why would they care about unions? It turns out, there’s more! Thomas Content at The Wisconsin Sentinel is reporting that a little-noticed section in the rest of the bill  (the part that will get passed once one side or the other relents on the union issue) allows Walker to  sell state owned power plants at pennies on the dollar. It bypasses the public utility commission oversight, specifying “no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary” SENATE BILL 11 AN ACT relating to: state finances, collective bargaining for public employees, compensation and fringe benefits of public employees, the state civil service system, the Medical Assistance program, sale of certain facilities, granting bonding authority, and making an appropriation SECTION 44. 16.896 of the statutes is created to read: 16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b). Interesting times. No wonder people in Egypt are sending us pizza! Susan Kraemer@Twitter

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BarbaraA

I have a Bengal, Lucy. She loves Meercat Manor.

Bren-2007

My front yard .. under the pear tree.  I chased him around for awhile, but he didn't want to leave!

Bren-2007

Linda .. great link!  I read an article about that on CNN and Huffpo this a.m.

Bren