I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange
Comments
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None of the adds from either side have been proven to incite anyone to violence.
to add:
If this add is the reason for today's catastrophic events, then we need not prosecute the man but the authors of this add.
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naming political representatives and showing them on a map with the crosshairs seen through a gun scope is not inciting to violence?!?!
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It was not a gun scope ( from what I understand) it was a "cross hairs". Yes it could be assumed that one is not exclusive of the other but it does not incite me to violence. It does not incite you to violence. You and I both consider it to be wrong and inappropriate. Crazies do not need incitement they create their own. They create justification for their actions without regard to any evidence or adds that may exist. Reality plays no part in their thought processes. There is nothing about this that makes me believe that add had anything to do with today's events. None of the other victims had cross hair adds directed at them and they died anyway. None of his posts or rants were directed at the representative, only at government in general. She represented government in his mind and he acted. The add is wrong and should never have been produced but I fail to see what it has to do with today's events.
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well, Gabrielle Giffords' Republican/Tea Party opponent in the November 2010 election was shown holding an M16 in a print ad, and hosted a shooting fundraiser advertised thusly:
"Get on target for victory in November
Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office
Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" -
Crazy people do not exist in a vacuum. Sarah Palin's stupid ads, all the right-wing hate talk, GWB's illegal war in Iraq, these are all part of our culture, and the culture in which this young man lived. (And, I might add, a culture that tolerates lack of health care for many of it's members, especially lack of mental health care.)
I doubt one can draw a direct line. But, other western cultures do not experience the same level of indiscriminate violence as we do in the US, and there is a reason for that.
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To hear public figures, leaders, advocate for violence, whether it be "exercising our second amendment rights" or putting someone in the crosshairs, or watering the tree of libery with blood, is to create an expectation of violence. You don't have to be all that crazy to take the extra step. Keep saying it, keep repeating it and theories of mind control and death panels and Hitler, whip people up with constant fear-mongering and hatred, and you'll eventually have a murder.
In addition to the gunman, I hold Palin, Bachmann, and Fox News responsible for what was done today. You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater and then say it's not your fault when stampeding people are crushed at the exits. Anyone who says differently is at best disingenuous, at worst a madman.
E
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revkat,
IMO crazies do exist in a self made vacuum. Reality is not part of their experience. They thrive on the fact that they are loners, persecuted by society and angry at everyone. They don't fit in and it makes them feel isolated. I feel like blaming the the political environment is an excuse his defense attorneys may use to justify what this man did. When you say that adds like the one discussed may have set him off you water down what I believe to be his responsibility for his actions. He decided to kill people and I don't believe something outside of his control made him act.
enjoyful,
Yelling Fire in a crowded theater is against the law and you can be prosecuted for doing so. Evidently these type of adds are not!
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BTW enjoyful,
Which public officials are advocating violence? I haven't seen those adds either. As you can tell I don't pay too much attention to political adds. I consider all of them to be half truths or none at all. I don't really believe the idea behind the "cross hairs" was violence. My impression was that the person in the "cross hairs" was a person to be defeated in the political forum.
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tupelo - GOOD POINT!
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revkat, thank you. You've got it right, to me.
According to this morning's NYTimes, Ms. Giffordsd has been the target of violence and suspect activity a couple of times already. In 2009, someone was arrested at her town hall meeting when his gun fell out of a harness. (Maybe he had a cocealed carry eprmit, I didn't find that out.) The windows of her local office have been broken out. Her office received a 'suspect package" just last week.
She lives in a tough district. She has opposed AZ's strict immigragtion laws, but heard her constituents on the other issues before her narrow re-election. She changed her party a few years back from Republican to Democrat, She's not very left-wing liberal at all.
The shooter is smart enough to hold out on his 5th amendment rights. He was tossed from college for disruptive and violent behavior. He seems to be a smart and quite disturbed guy. We'll find out his motives eventually, if he doesn't commit suicide in jail somehow,
With all the political vitriol that's out there (and in here) it's going to be hard NOT adding politics into the mix where this is concerned.
Anne
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From today's NYTimes:
"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list," Ms. Giffords said last March. "But the thing is the way that she has it depicted has the cross hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that."
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I rarely post quotes or links on this kind of thread, but this writer said exactly what I've been trying to say, and said it a lot better.
"...and maybe the gunman had no idea why he was aiming for Giffords either, maybe he didn't know how she voted on health care or what her position on Arizona's draconian immigration law was. It would be a kind of relief if Loughner operated not out of any coherent political context but just his own fevered brain.
"But even so, the tragedy wouldn't change this basic fact: for the past two years, many conservative leaders, activists, and media figures have made a habit of trying to delegitimize their political opponents. Not just arguing against their opponents, but doing everything possible to turn them into enemies of the country and cast them out beyond the pale. Instead of "soft on defense," one routinely hears the words "treason" and "traitor." The President isn't a big-government liberal-he's a socialist who wants to impose tyranny. He's also, according to a minority of Republicans, including elected officials, an impostor. Even the reading of the Constitution on the first day of the 112th Congress was conceived as an assault on the legitimacy of the Democratic Administration and Congress.
"This relentlessly hostile rhetoric has become standard issue on the right. (On the left it appears in anonymous comment threads, not congressional speeches and national T.V. programs.) And it has gone almost entirely uncriticized by Republican leaders. Partisan media encourages it, while the mainstream media finds it titillating and airs it, often without comment, so that the gradual effect is to desensitize even people to whom the rhetoric is repellent. We've all grown so used to it over the past couple of years that it took the shock of an assassination attempt to show us the ugliness to which our politics has sunk."
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/2011/01
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I believe Ms Giffords point was that she was a target for defeat in the upcoming election and that she was not going to roll over and play dead for the opposition. She was going to fight back and defeat her competition. She was right about consequences, that add probably helped her win re-election.
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Except Catcher in the Rye was fiction (Palin's map was not) and didn't specifically name John Lennon (Palin's map named 20 politicians.) That's the difference.
Of course the shooter(s) is ultimately responsible for his actions but I ditto what revkat said. This "don't retreat, reload" "I want people ...armed and dangerous..." speech is ridiculous -serves no purpose other than to incite. Unfortunately for someone who is unstable, that means more than 'get out and vote.' Why must we use gun rhetoric?
If Sarah didn't feel her words could have been taken literally, why did she take the map down? (Apparently so is the March 23 'don't retreat, reload' twitter, although I'm not bothering to confirm.) I'd like to hear her reasoning.
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Palin knew she would be targeted because of her webpage. That's why she took it down. But it's too late .. millions of people saw it, and many more copied it before she took it down. Giffords even referred to her place on the ad between the gunsights. Giffords wasn't the only one, my rep from VA was also on the gunsight list.
Bren
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She took it down because she thought *she* be targeted? By crazies? Interesting.
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revkat,
Your article is on spot. I too believe that the political forum of this country needs to clean up it's act. My issue with your author is that he insinuates that this nasty game the politicians play has in some way set yesterday's events in motion. The two are not necessarily related. There has been no evidence of that. Your author uses yesterday's events to back up his opinion of what's wrong with the system. Why not use the event to say that mental health facilities in this country have failed this man. At least everyone agrees that he had a mental health issue. There is an article in USA today that is trying to suggest that because the shooter read Hitler's writings that his actions were religiously motivated (she was Jewish). Everyone, wants to assign blame. A well known comedian once made this point. "when a kid messes up everyone wants to blame the parents. The kid says, my mom did this, my dad wasn't around etc. Just once, I'd like to hear them step up to the plate and say, my mom was OK, my dad was OK. I'm just a $hit head."
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Respin: Targeted by the media as possibly inciting the killer to action. IMO. Whether it's true or not, and I doubt the killer did what he did because of her webpage of gunsights, she knew she went too far with that ad and took it down.
It was too little too late. Millions had seen the ad, including Giffords, who commented on it last year before the elections.
Using violence in ads to make your point is not only ignorant it's irresponsible. IMO.
Brenda
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respin,
she took the map down because others are doing exactly what many are doing here, placing blame on someone other than the shooter. '
BinVa,
I could not agree more!
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1
Dupnik has not stated a motive for the assassination attempt against the Democratic congresswoman. But he suggested that "vitriolic rhetoric" in political debates could have deadly consequences.
"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this county is getting to be outrageous. Unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become sort of the capital," he said. "We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."
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OMGosh! Sarah Palin, like Giffords, is a gun rights advocate. Sarah Palin hunts animls with guns, not people. Ya'll are REALLY stretching it!
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Shirley .. no one said Palin killed anyone .. and in my post above yours, I disavowed that notion. I did, however, suggest that type of ad has no business being in politics today .. whether on the left or right.
Bren
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How does one make sense out of these incoherent rants. Some snippets from the article about the man who shot Giffords and others.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/08/shooting-suspects-apparent-youtube-video/
Loughner is suspected of posting a series of YouTube videos that show a focus on literacy and currency -- as well as his distrust in the government.
"Hello, my name is Jared Lee Loughner," one of the videos says, in words appearing on the screen. "This video is my introduction to you! My favorite activity is conscience dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream - sadly."
The video, posted Dec. 15, later turns more political.
"The majority of citizens in the united states of America have never read the united states of America's constitution. You don't have to accept the federalist laws," the video's titles say. "In conclusion, reading the second United States constitution, I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver! No! I won't trust in god!"
Records obtained from the Pima County, Ariz. criminal database show Loughner was arrested in 2007 for possessing drug paraphernalia, a misdemeanor charge. The records suggest that Loughner paid a $20 fee and completed a court-ordered program for drug offenders.
Three months later he was cited for running a stop sign, according to court documents.
Another record shows a 2008 arrest for what's described as a "local charge" in Marana, Ariz., 20 miles northwest of Tucson. The non-criminal charge was dismissed.
Loughner's page on YouTube lists Tucson as his hometown. He also said he attended Northwest Aztec College and Pima County Community College. And in one of the videos, he says he is a military recruit.
But an Army official told Fox News Loughner attempted to enlist in the Army in December 2008 but was denied.
The Army provided this statement:
"The Army has confirmed that the suspect was never in the Army. He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected."
In other videos, Loughner calls the people of District 8, his Ariz. district, illiterate.
In a bizarre equation that Loughner appears to mean as example of deductive reasoning, he concludes that "the police are unconstitutional."
In yet another rant verging on the paranoid, he says:
"I know who's listening: Government Officials, and the People. Nearly all the people, who don't know this accurate information of a new currency, aren't aware of mind control and brainwash methods. If I have my civil rights, then this message wouldn't have happen."
He lists reading under interests, as well as "conscience dreams," and among his favorite books are "Mein Kampf," the "Communist Manifesto," "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World."
In a comment posted on MySpace three months ago in connection with a video about Pima Community College, Loughner wrote: "Hello, I know you're illiterate! This is the greatest protest for exposure into a wrongful act. The school is breaking the constitution. If you watch the video then you'll understand. The teachers are taking advantage of you in the first and Fifth Amendment. The United States Constitution, which is the law, can be broken at this school. Thank you and goodnight! Jared"
His last writing on his MySpace page was just hours before the shooting.
"Goodbye friends," he wrote. "Please don't be mad at me."
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re: the sherrif's remarks
He starts out giving facts and compassionate information about the event and those involved, and then plainly states that "in his opinion, etc." That is exactly what we're doing. No more, no less. The only difference is that he is on TV and we are on this thread.
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So...how do mentally unstable people formulate their ideas about supposed "enemies"? If they're schizophrenic, perhaps they hear voices. If they're just plain angry and dissatisfied with their lives, maybe they listen to talk radio or read blogs or see ads that they feel will justify their actions. Remember the shooter in Pittsburgh in the spring of 2009 who killed three police officers? He had just lost his job, had anger management problems, and had heard that Obama was planning to take away his guns. Well, it seems that this had been suggested on talk radio.
If we were mental health experts, perhaps we could discuss this horrible situation more reasonably. But assassins -- going back to John Wilkes Booth -- have always had reasons for carrying out an assassination (and in this case, an attempted one). The reasons don't just come out of the blue -- either there is a very strong influence, or another, controlling party is involved. I hope we soon find out the reasons behind this attempt, and I hope this incident serves to cool down the rhetoric. It's gotten totally out of hand, as the Sheriff of Pima County and many others have insisted.
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As far as the bullet sent through the Cap and Trade bill...geez, Cap and Trade was targeted. I'm defending the Democrat. And the targets Palin used was to use the BALLOT BOX, not guns. Anyone in THEIR RIGHT MIND would know this. Crazy people are going to do crazy things...PERIOD!
This is good and listen to what the CNN reporter said about Giffords the day she read the 2nd ammendment.
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Reading The First Amendment
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lindasa, have you been listening to the NEWS and not just reading opinions or left wing blogs. The man was "expelled" from college and asked NOT to come back. In fact the police delivered the letter to him..letter said not to come back until they knew he would not harm himself or others.
http://www.azbiz.com/articles/2011/01/08/news/breaking_news/doc4d29463932228218107137.txt
Pima College statement on shooting suspect Jared Loughner
Pima Community College issued this statement regarding the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the suspect, Jared Loughner, who is in custody.
"As are all Americans, Pima Community College is deeply saddened by today's tragic events, and our most heartfelt condolences and thoughts go the families of the victims."PCC records indicate that Jared Lee Loughner, the suspect in custody in connection to today's terrible mass shooting, is a former PCC student who voluntarily withdrew from the College on Oct. 4, 2010.
"Loughner was a PCC student from Summer 2005 through Fall 2010, when he was suspended for Code of Conduct violations. The College's Code of Conduct is available at
"From February to September 2010, Loughner had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions at Northwest and West campuses. On September 29, 2010, College police discovered on YouTube a Loughner-filmed video made at Northwest Campus. In the video, he claims that the College is illegal according to the U.S. Constitution, and makes other claims.
"Working with legal counsel, College administration issued a letter of immediate suspension on September 29,2010. That evening, two police officers delivered the letter of suspension to the student at his and his parents' residence and spoke with the student and his parents.
"The suspension letter indicated that he was to contact the Northwest Campus to schedule an appointment to discuss the Code of Conduct process and suspension status. Other than for this appointment, he was prohibited from returning to the College."Loughner and his parents met Northwest Campus administrators October 4, 2010. During this meeting Loughner indicated he would withdraw from the College. A follow-up letter was sent to him October 7, 2010, indicating that if he intends to return to the College, he must resolve his Code of Conduct violations and obtain a mental health clearance indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others.
"After this event, there was no further College contact with Loughner."
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Shirley,
I don't see how anyone could make sense out of something that plainly makes no sense. We all (myself included) want to know why, but we're asking that sane people explain the workings of a sick mind (bear in mind that sick minds make decisions they should be held accountable for). I'm afraid it will be difficult to do. Psychologists will also blame cultural influences and childhood background for many actions of an individual. I just believe that my actions are a direct result of my decisions, crazy as I may be. I can see and read things I agree strongly with or disagree with and not take the type of action this man did. He did not lack the ability to control his actions, he lacked the will, and I hope and pray he will suffer the consequence.
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Shirley, you said: "Anyone in their right mind would know this." I agree completely. The problem is that there are plenty of people out there who are not in their right mind. I am not saying that is what happened in AZ. I am saying that because of all those people who are not in their right mind, public figures need to tone it down.
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"lindasa, have you been listening to the NEWS and not just reading opinions or left wing blogs"
What, now we differentiate between NEWS and OPINIONS. A lot of us have been arguing that when 'opinion' pieces and you tube have been used to back up arguments on this thread.
Edited to add: There are a lot of people out there on the edge of insanity. If we knew what eventually pushed some of them over the edge, we would not be having incidences like this. Is it so wrong to expect civility and facts be used to voice our opinions instead of hate and fear?
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