I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

Anonymous

I feel sorry for you ladies who are so quick to judge Sarah Palin.  I just cannot believe it!  I'm sure Maddow and nut job Olbermann will have something to say about it.

If you've been listening at all to the news, the man was clealy a lunatic!  I, however, hope he doesn't get "off" with the insanity "defense" like the guy who shot President Reagan and Brady.  I guess that was Jodi Foster's fault.

The Congresswoman just read from the constitution about freedom of speech and peaceful gatherings.  This nut job talked about District 8 which was his district.  And, Rep. Giffords advertised that she would be there, thus the loon made his way there.  And the poor judge stopped by there to pay his respects. 

So, ladies, I would calm down about Sarah or ANY "personality" about this man shooting this lovely woman.  We should be united...not let this nut divide us!

Alpal

2tzus, as you are very aware, there is a national figure who used crosshairs to identify dems who needed to be replaced because of their health care votes. As I'm sure you are also aware, Ms. Gifford was one of the dems who was "targeted". Does that mean that any politician is responsible? Of course not, and no one has said that. This guy is nuts. There are a lot of nuts out there and every public figure should act responsibly and not do anything to incite them. The vitriol and hate speech in our society has gotten out of hand and one can never know how it affects those who are unstable.  Edited for spelling error!

rosemary-b

Allison

You expressed what I was trying to say much better than I did, Thank you.

Anonymous

Alpal wrote: 

There are a lot of nuts out there and every public figure should act responsibly and not do anything to incite them. The vitrol and hate speech in our society has gotten out of hand and one can never know how it affects those who are unstable.

So now we, and every public figure must all edit our speech so as not to incite someone who is unstable?  Who could possibly predict what might set someone off?  The very First Amendment to the Constitution is Freedom of Speech.  Woe to our nation if we give that up.

208sandy

Allison:

Thanks for your input.

floralgal

Delete

pip57

I don't think anyone is 'blaming' Sarah Palin.  However....it was a crude, unnecessary ad and could be suggestive to 'unbalanced' people.  And yes, the hate speech is your constitutional right.  But hate is hate.  A very strong emotion that can evoke very emotional responses.  I don't know what the resolution is, but things are getting crazy!  Just MHO.

crazy4carrots

"We are again dealing with difficulties in a contentious, partisan time.  We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears.  As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delerious, connected and unhinged."

     ~~~ Bill Clinton on the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing

You may or may not agree with the above, but I think he makes a good point, regardless of your political views.  BTW, CNN is reporting that there is evidence the assassin may not have acted alone, and that the police are looking for another individual.

Alpal

I did not insinuate that anyone was targeted for violence. If you don't like the word target then you should speak to your candidates about using cross hairs in their ads. Cross hairs = targets. I am well aware that this was a political ad and I don't think it was meant to incite violence. BUT - a nutjob might very well think that was the intent. IMO, it was irresponsible. And the reason it was irresponsible is because there are many unstable people out there who could misinterpret it. And if that means we give up our right to spew hate speech, so be it! This is very similar to yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre. Common sense mandates that sort of action is irresponsible. Please read what I said: "Does that mean that any politician is responsible? Of course not, and no one has said that."  I stand by my statement that the vitriol and hate speech in this country is out of hand. Edited for typo and spelling error. 

kadeeb

From what I can read and what the media is reporting, there is no doubt this guy is crazy as a loon. Being crazy is not an excuse or a free pass for murder and attempted murder. He will be examined by a bunch of psychos and they will determine if he knew right from wrong.  This moron was like Timothy McVey. Yes a nut job, but totally aware of his actions and intent. With any luck he will get what's coming to him. 

She is a democrat but was previously a republican and is now considered a moderate demo. Every elected official has to get off the fence at one time or another and she has not only taken sides but jumped up and down on her side of the fence. Whether you agree or not with her choices, she's made of some pretty tuff stuf. We need more like her on both sides. I don't think that crazies are affected very much by the media or what any politician says. For the most part they live in their own delusional world and don't need outside influences to set them off.  They basically(as someone else suggested) brain wash themselves.  They feed on their own insecurities and paranoia and eventually strike out at others (school children, college students, random strangers, celebs and politicians, sometimes neighbors)for preceived injustices or wrongs that they're fed up with.

She was "targeted" for defeat in a political race, not murder(I'm afraid the word "target" is getting thrown around). There's nothing wrong with that. It's the way politics works and I'm sure she would agree. She was not in fear for her life. She had little to no security at the Safeway. She had no more reason to fear an attack than anyone else that is in the public eye and and it's clear that she had no such fear.  

It will be interesting to see if there was a history of anti-social behavior and if he had ever been diagnosed or hospitalized for mental problems.   

pip57

"She was not in fear for her life. She had little to no security at the Safeway. She had no more reason to fear an attack than anyone else that is in the public eye and and it's clear that she had no such fear."

 That is what makes it especially crazy and frightening.  

kadeeb

You're right! It does. But people like this man aren't sitting around watching TV news programs or reading newspapers and magazines. They already know what's wrong with government and the rest of the world.  Actually they are the only ones who do know.  They aren't interested in other's opinions regardless of the view point. No one else understands, no one else knows and so they have to do something to make their views heard or to alleviate the tension that is building. They seek validation and publicity through the sensationalism of their deeds. It's the old "see what I've done"? I'm not ordinary or a nothing. I'm someone important and these people can pretty much blend in because they don't call attention to themselves until it is too late.

kellyj

Wow, it sounds like he would have done this no matter what political group had gathered.  Hated the government in general.  So sad....prayers for all the victims. 

kadeeb

I wouldn't assume anything about him. I'm just speculating, but if you look at others who have committed multiple murders in shooting rampages, in most cases, the target was only important because of the publicity and or the number of victims. If he had been intent on just killing the representative, he wouldn't have gone there with a gun with an extended clip containing such a huge number of bullets(bigger and much harder to conceal). I was offered an extended clip (illegal by the way) for the weapon I own. I told the seller that if I couldn't hit my target with 9 shots, I'd just throw the gun at my target and run. This guy meant to reek havoc and that's what he did.

lassie11

There is a cultural setting that made it possible and predictable for this particular madman do what he did.

The culture reveres guns, the divisive politics promotes seeing opposition as enemy, the advertising of putting specific politicians in a clearly gun like crosshairs encourages people only slightly on the edge to fall over the edge; this particular madman is a product of that culture.

I'll be interested to hear if there is, as the news is suggesting now (I listen to CBC), a second person involved and what that is all about.

kellyj

Lassie,

By the reports, he saw government as his opposition.  Not the political party they belonged to.  I don't think it is predictable either.  It has only happened to elected officials ten times in history.  There is hate spouted on both sides.  Cindy Sheehan was an antiwar hater, should we blame the Fort Hood shooting on her? 

AnneW

Why do we allow guns in the hands of the mentally ill, if that's what this guy was. YouTube rants can be anybody acting out. All this reminds me of abortion clinic bombings and doctor-killing. People know what they are doing. This was pre-meditated. Most crazy people don't get a semi-automatic and shoot up a Safeway parking lot rally.

And, a second suspect has been found, according to the NYTimes. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Anne

kadeeb

I would be surprised to find out that there is a second person but nothing is out of the possible range here. As normal people (whatever that is) we have the need to know why. Why does something like this happen to anyone? If we can assign blame to the media or doctors or politicians then we feel safer in the belief that it won't happen to us because we know why it happened. It happened because this person is evil. He didn't care who he hurt (a nine year old). He has no empathy for his victims. This man is not normal(by anyone's definition) and if it hadn't been a gun it would have been a bomb (Mr. McVey) or poison (Jim Jones). It is not the gun that kills it is the one pulling the trigger. It is not divisive politics that sees the opposition as the enemy it is the politician. This man may be a product of our political culture. I prefer to believe he's just a piece of $hit.

konakat

Whether or not he was influenced by that crosshairs ad, it is just in poor taste -- it's not cute or funny.  They certainly removed it from her website PDQ.  What a dreadful day.

BTW -- I did not post that ad, I just referred to it, as so many have in all flavours of news coverage.  Geesh.

Medigal

Ladies:  There is something we all should understand.  IMO, this man is insane and "any" thing could have set him off.  Sane people can read about problems with our government and react reationally by contacting their reps and looking for ways to help.  "Insane" people wait for an excuse to lash out at innocent people and take their anger out on them.  I think this man was a pot brewing for a long time after filling his mine with readings and maybe even tv programs which intensified his hatred and anger.  He was a walking "time bomb" and unfortunately today that poor woman, child and others were in the right place for "him" at the wrong time.  He wanted to make a statement to the world and in his insanity killing innocent people seemed the right thing for him to do. 

What is terrifying to me is that there probably are many others like him waiting for an excuse to explode and how do we "find" them before they explode and kill more innocent people?  I would be very surprised if a second person was involved in this.  May all those whose lives were sacrificed to feed his insanity, rest in peace.

crazy4carrots

Kadeeb ~ The 1989 massacre at Ecole Polytechnique in 1989 was by a man who targeted only women because he believed that feminism was ruining his life.  Then he committed suicide.

The Oklahoma City bombing was done by seemingly rational young men who hated "big government", and were active renegade militia members. (BTW, the number of known active militia groups has increased five-fold in the last 10 years  That is frightful.)

The Columbine massacre was done by boys who were mentally unstable but also filled with hate for authority.  They committed suicide.

Why did today's assassin target a democratic congresswoman?  According to reports, he was just 4 feet away from her when he pulled the trigger.  Then he started randomly shooting when the crowd responded.

All this is to say that I'm not sure some of these killers did what they did for the "publicity" or the number of victims (other than McVeigh). They had particular objectives and targets. 

lassie11

There will be all sorts of excuses about how this madman was not specifically linked to the political vitriol, to the accessiblity of guns etc etc. and how somebody else did something else bad.

The reality is that this young man is a product of the culture within which he lives. He cannot escape it and since he was a madman, he went over the edge using the tools of his culture.

There are no valid excuses. This was not a random act.

(edited for typo)

kadeeb

konakat,

You are certainly right about the poor taste. I'd even go so far as to say rude and tasteless. There have been a lot of those type of adds on both sides. I consider that type of add to be a reflection on the one producing it.  The public has indicated that they resent negative add campaigns but politicians continue to produce them. They do it because it does affect the feelings and votes of the generall public. Many voters hear and see those adds and believe them because they don't research things like we do here.  If they work, politicians (both sides) will continue to use them.

kadeeb

Medigal,

I second that opinion! 

pip57

We also have to remember that someone who appears to be as disturbed about politics as this young man was is a target for those who want somebody to do their 'dirty work' for them.  That was one of the theories behind Lee Harvey Oswald.

kadeeb

Lindasa,

You're right in your assessment, IMO. The examples you quoted are specific targets but most of these nuts have specific issues in mind. My opinion about why they do these types of things was an assessment of what they derive from the act. They do get publicity and a body count but they also get a release of anger and hatred. They do want to be remembered because they don't feel important before the act. Before the killings they are impotent (not sexually) and afterwards they have proved how powerful they are. They are no longer at everyone's mercy.  They have some measure of control even if it is only to take their own lives.

kadeeb

Pretty,

That's a twisted mind you have there, and I see your point (guess that makes mine twisted too!LOL) 

revkat

kadeeb, please find me an ad put out by a Democratic Party candidate that uses cross-hairs or other firearm related imagery and language to describe the hoped for defeat of their opponent.

The two sides are not equally represented in this sort of advertising.

Just as, when George W. was president, the Democratic Party leaders did not participate in the kind of disrespect for the office that we have seen from Republicans toward the current president. (Protesters, yes, just as bad, but the difference is the LEADERSHIP. No Democratic congress person ever yelled "Liar" even when GW lied repeatedly in State of the Union Addresses. No Democratic congressperson ever questioned Bush's birthplace or Cheney's residential status on the basis of nothing more than a rumor.)

When leaders say things like "don't retreat, reload" or talk about finding a "second amendment solution" to a political issue, they have some responsibility when their listeners then pick up firearms.

And, of course, being part of a culture where, when we feel disrespected, we bomb the hell out of countries who pose no threat to us may also foster an environment where shooting someone you disagree with seems like the thing to do. 

I'm angry. At the young man who pulled the trigger AND at the culture that shaped him and set him loose with easy access to guns. 

kadeeb

revkat,

I don't know of any adds that fill the bill you described, I've never seen the one referenced in this thread but I can assure you that I have found more than a few adds offensive and an insult to my intelligence and it crosses party lines. Neither party is interested in the truth or common courtesy. They both treat the public like idiots that have no knowledge or ability to acquire knowledge.  IMO they both treat us like mushrooms ( keep us in the dark and feed us BS). Bad taste is bad taste and both are guilty as home made sin. 

revkat

Bad taste is not the same as inciting to violence.