I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange

1Athena1

Yes, momine - Gucci is definitely made to last.

I am a big fan of Salvatore Ferragamo - the same quality but less recognizable. Superb craftsmanship on top of beauty. I especially love their shoes.

Momine

Athena, pity you couldn't hang with my grandma. All her shoes were Ferragamos, just about. It was hands down her favorite shoe company.

pip57

Watching Jon Stewart again last night.  Seriously, I learn more about American politics there than in the mainstream media. 

Last night was about the reports of Hagel and "Friends of Hamas" connection, one of the groups that doesn't even exist even though Hagel has been maligned because of his connection to them.  Really?

IllinoisLady

A blurb from Hardball

Let Me Start Republican Rep. Louie Gohmert has been among the loudest voices on the birther fringe. Now he's talking up another false conspiracy to defend gun rights in this country. According to ThinkProgress, Gohmert says Americans need guns to protect the nation from Sharia law. As if there's any threat of Sharia law actually taking hold anywhere in the country. It's frightening to think that a U.S. congressman could sink to this level of fear-mongering, but sadly we've come to expect things like this from the extreme Tea Party right, a faction that has demonstrated its willingness to gain power by preying on the ignorance of others. And where are the Republican grown-ups to put a stop to this sort of talk.

bluedahlia

bluedahlia

bluedahlia

IllinoisLady

JMO but it would seem ( to some extent this would go for both sides ) that it truly  would behoove the grown-ups in the party to get on with things.  They have been allowing the point to be made for the better part of three years and their approach has been in the main more destructive to them.  The lies, half-truths, innuendos and all the fodder heaped on Faux news to play up for the weak-minded who can be scared into acquiescence has not proved much.  Surely there are some real men who will step forward. 

bluedahlia

Chickadee

Surely there are some real men....and women....



More women would definitely alter the landscape.......well intelligent ones, anyway.

Anonymous

Jackie, have you not heard about shariah law in Dearborn Michigan? They even have the public whistles, horns, whatever go off several times a day to call to prayer.



It's happening in our own backyard.



http://www.kate-wells.com/kate_wells/2010/06/sharia-law-in-dearborn-michigan.html



Old hippie

Paula

alexandria58

Paula,  Actually it's not.   There is no sharia law in Dearborn.  The public call to prayer is no more an imposition of the Islamic religion on the general populace than the ringing of church bells is an imposition of Christianity. 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/09/dearborn-where-americans-come-hate-muslims/3360/

Anonymous

Alexandria, that's absolutely true, but what happened to freedom of speech, and the right to assemble peaceably? If you get arrested for handing out literature whether christian or otherwise, our rights are being taken away.



We didn't see this happening in the 70's when the hari krishnas were everywhere.



Paula

CherrylH

Thanks, Alexandria. You beat me to it.

1Athena1

Whether there is or is not sharia law, the dictatorial nature of many christian leaders in our country is no less pernicious than other religious extremism. Before we worry about Islam, let's not forget all those preachers who routinely blame "liberals" and "homosexuals" for every calamity ranging from 9/11 to Hurricane Katrina.

We need a call to prayer for sure - from protestant extremism in our own heartland. People like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are a danger to this country. They are, to use the words of a one-time republican presidential candidate (before he was a candidate), "agents of intolerance."

Then we have the Catholic church protecting pedophiles.

Really, I don't think Islam has much on us Christians (even us atheist ones :-) ).

1Athena1

And if you hippies don't stop arguing, I will give you some Emilio Pucci.  His collection comes out today.

Prada's came out yesterday. Some interesting pieces. Maybe she has a soul this season, although I can't say much for the rather pretentious hair styling. I love some of her coats: http://www.style.com/fashionshows/complete/F2013RTW-PRADA

pip57

All extremists are a problem.  All religions, all politics.  

Anonymous

Athena, lol on arguing hippies. We did agree to disagree. I try to say everything with grace. I don't mean to offend anyone.



Old hippie

1Athena1

I think pip puts it best. Extremism does not know national or cultural boundaries.

alexandria58

Agreed.  Extremists come in all shapes and religions.   Here's for moderation and tolerance of differences, Jewish, Christian, Moslem.

On the question of intolerance: had an interesting weekend at the funeral.  My very orthodox family was shocked, shocked when I married a non-Jew thirty years ago.  Early on, we were cut out of a number of family events.  But, over the years, the family has come to know and love my DH - and my uncle, while he was dying, spoke of how sorry he was to not have accepted Jim from the beginning, what a good and kind man my DH is.   My poor grieving cousin kept repeating this to me while we huddled in her bedroom, hiding from her sister.

YramAL

I like the comparison of the Muslim calls to prayer to the ringing of church bells in steeples. I don't like that some people dislike Muslims purely for who they are. Are they not allowed to practice their religion as well as Christians? I have several Muslim co-workers and I don't feel they are imposing their religion on me, nor do I impose my Christianity on them. It's all about RESPECT. Some have forgotten this-some Christians, some Muslims, and yes, some atheists. 

Mary

YramAL

And, as I recall, Dearborn, MI has a HUGE Muslim population. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have their calls to prayer? America is about religious freedom after all.

ETA-Of course, that HUGE Muslim population is a threat in itself to some, after all. 

Mary

Momine

Paula, others have already pointed out that the call to prayer is no different than a church bell. As far as Muslims having some evil plan to take over Dearborn, I really doubt it. Dearborn has had an Arab (mostly Christian Arab, by the way) community for a long time. When the US government took in some Iraqis after Gulf War I, they decided to settle them in Dearborn. That is the main reason there is now a sizeable Muslim community in Dearborn.

As far as the poor, hard done to preacher boys, my sympathy is somewhat limited. We are Greek-Orthodox. I am trying to imagine our annual Easter Greek festival at our suburban, Greek-Orthodox church (when we lived in the US) and how people would react if a bunch of bearded Muslim dudes showed up declaring "allahu akbar" and handing out Qurans. I frankly find the preacher boys quite numbskull and rude to boot.

By the way, Shariah means "the way" or "the path." It is like a catechism and law book in one, except there are actually 4 distinctly different Shariah traditions just in Sunni Islam.

Very little of the Shariah is based in the Quran, for the simple reason that the Quran doesn't spell out many rules. Most of the Quran is vague retellings of Bible stories and exhortations to obey God, be righteous etc.

Instead the Shariah is based on "hadiths" - sayings - which purport to be things said either by the Prophet or his companions. There is a VAST mass of these hadiths, and an equally vast literature on which hadiths you can trust and which are bogus. The more out there Salafi crazies often base their various crap on hadiths that mainstream Islam has rejected as bogus. 

About 20% of the Shariah is actual laws, the rest is catechism stuff, when to pray, how to be a good Muslim and so on. Not really very scary. Most of mainstream Islam believes (and it is enshrined in Shariah) that if a non-Muslim state leaves them alone and lets them practice their faith freely and unmolested, then they must be loyal to said state and follow its laws.

1Athena1

This may sound counterintuitive, but I sometimes wonder if things would be better if we said less about them. There is such obsessive talk about different races, religions, sexual orientations, etc... that every one of us has been labeled one way or the other. If I hear that Hillary Clinton "is a woman" one more time I shall scream. Sometimes this only seems to end up magnifying perceived differences and creating politically expedient moments for politicians. There comes a time when awareness for awareness's sake leads to a dead end - as with breast cancer awareness. It's certainly better for bc to be accepted than for it to be taboo, as it was many decades ago, but if no progress is made thereafter, if all I am is this poor little pink victim, then I'd rather no one know.

Besides, there is some intolerance one has to live with. We all suffer from it, I'm sure. In my case, I could state that I am discriminarted against because I am an atheist, I am crazy, I am a woman, and I buy Ferragamo (slouches are some of the most intolerant people I've ever met - I've known too many who make a values assessment on people based on how they look - and I just called them slouches - lol! And I can be a slouch too - double lol!).

Years ago Sandra Day O'Conner expressed the hope that the country would reach a time when institutional discrimination wasn't there. I don't know. Sadly, intolerance has always been bred into humanity....and I don't know if what we are doing about it in the 21st century is helping to reduce it (what was done in the two previous centuries was unquestionably helpful, of course) or if we are merely changing what we put up with and what we don't.

Don't know if I made any sense. This is a far more complex topic than many are willing to admit, IMO.

pupmom

Pip, absolutely. This country was supposedly formed on the basis of religious freedom. So, where is that so-called freedom today?

Momine

Athena, I think you may be on to something. There is a lot to be said for being civil and polite to others, whether you secretly think they are going to hell or whatever, and leave it at that. Humans are inherently intolerant. There are probably some sort of interesting, evolutionary reasons for that (protecting the cave from the weird redheads down the road maybe). I don't think that will ever change. But we could maybe all just behave already.

YramAL

Sadly, when we tolerate each other, that is mocked by some as being "politically correct".

Mary

alexandria58

You have a point, Athena.  We all have things that identify us and separate us out from others, and we are all labeled by our religion, our sex, our politics, our professions, our illnesses - it goes on and on, and we will always have differences. The question is how we handle those differences. Intolerance is human: we fear the different and we fear change, but that doesn't mean we stop fighting intolerance by illuminating the similarities among all of us, and and by stressing our common humanity.  Things have changed so much since the mid-twentieth century  - in my lifetime - and for the better - for women, for Jews, for African Americas - that I can't give up hope for a better future.   

Athena, I can accept everything but your buying Ferragama.

1Athena1

Hands up if you are about six feet tall AND thin AND of willowly beauty. This lioness's paw is not going up....BUT it's free to look, as they say.

And that's what I do with great admiration for this season's Versace collection. People said it took Donatella a long time to recover from Gianni's untimely death. He was a master, and a hard act to follow, but Donatella was already creative director of parts of the house while he was alive and her enormous talent is simply undeniable. Gianni's overt sexuality was nonetheless soft, if sometimes very racy. Donatella is more hard and practical, but to me the brand is at its best when the two are mixed. Donatella seems to have embraced more of the sexuality with abandon that made Versace so appealing, while maintaining her great sense of architecture (don't know how else to describe it). I would be very surprised if this collection isn't a hit with the critics:

I love this look:

Amazing boots, too.

ETA:

Belinda44

Mary, you said, "it's all about RESPECT" re: religion.  So true!!!

Athena, have always loved black/white combo re: clothing, but don't think I'll be wearing any of those