Bible Study for the Biblically Challenged Anyone?

Estepp

The dead in Christ are the non believers/non Christian.

X3sMom

Hello ladies,

I've been reading here for a few months.  My daughter has bc mets and we've been reading and posting on the recurrence forum.  I saw that LuAnn post here and found it interesting.

Karen, I'm sorry your daughter is ill. I've read past post and have been praying for her. Maybe I can help you here a little since you seem to have your hands full right now.

(My thoughts on this subject)

LuAnn,   Christians (those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior) raise to meet the Lord in the air at His coming.

And Matt. 25:46 explains what happens to those who reject Him.

Matt 25:46   And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.  KJV

EWB, the ‘dead in Christ' are Christians who have died. When Christ comes back, there will be people still living on earth, both Christians and non-believers. The verse is saying, the people who are Christians who have pasted away, will rise from the grave and THEN the living (christians) shall be caught up (with them) also. This scripture does not mention those who didn't believe in Jesus, but the one I found for LuAnn does. The unrighteous people will be judged and separated from God.

May God continue to bless you girls!

moodyk13

X3sMom thank you so much for your post.  I knew that the "dead in Christ" are believers, but it is one of those things I still dont quite get.  I really appreciate you responding here.  I want and encourage everyone to respond with both questions and answers.  Goodness knows I certainly dont have all the answers, but I will drive myself crazy till I find one that satisfies me!  LOL

I am really so blessed to be here and be a part of this thread, and to know so many prayer warriors!

moodyk13

As promised, here we go!

*"dead in Christ shall rise"   as explained in my study bible and my own thoughts and understanding:

To get a full sense of what is going on here in the letter Paul was writing to Thessalonica we need to start with verse 13.  The term "fallen asleep" was a metaphor for dying. Though Paul taught the Thessalonians about Christ's return, some of the new converts were questioning Timothy regarding the recent deaths of other new believers.  Paul answers these questions to give them comfort of knowing they will see their loved ones again.   This was a hope that non believers did not have then and still don't have today.

In verse 14 Paul emphasizes that Jesus died and had risen again and this alone is proof that those who call on His name, too shall conquer the grave, and spend eternity with Jesus. 

Now let's look here in verse 14  "bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."  Some say that this statement implies that Christians who have already died are in the grave physically, but merely "unconscious" until the Second Coming.  BUT the Bible indicates that to be absent from our present body is to be present with the Lord:

1Thes 5: 10 "Who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

2 Cor 5: 8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 

Phil 1:23  " For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." 

With that all said, Christians can be assured that when we die, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord.  Our bodies are in the grave, but our souls are with Him.  So Paul answers their questions, and in turn our questions, by affirming that actually those who have died will go before (v. 16) those living on earth.

I personally believe that when Christ comes back and the "dead shall rise to meet Him in the air" means that our souls re-unite with our physical bodies, but not the old body, a brand new body.  I don't know if we will look physically the same, or if this change comes so deep within from being with Christ that we are "transformed" in Him.  But I don't think any of us will care what we look like anymore.

Estepp

Thanks Glenda and Moody... I get that.

EWB

I know I've asked this before but...I believe in God, higher power, 10 commandments, the golden rule, caring for others etc. I am struggling/wondering about Jesus and his role, immaculate conception, dying for sins etc.

moodyk13

Hi Elaine, hope you are having a great day.  Would you mind explaining what struggles you are having in particular?  I would love to help you settle this in your heart, I just don't know where to begin.  Do you question whether of not He even existed, or that He is God in the flesh?

This is a great question that so many people have, especially with such uncertain times.  I just want to make sure anything I post, relates to what you are questioning.

moodyk13

I am also doing the study of Revelations on the new forum http://www.breastcanswers.com/index.html and there was a question posted there regarding the "Rapture" versus "Christ's second coming" and aren't they the same event. 

They are two seperate events and here is what I posted there:

The Rapture is Christ calling up all believers to Heaven so that we protected from the Tribulation. Those who remain will have to go through the Tribulation. The Bible states that those who remain will be changed (prob scared out of thier minds) and that many will then believe in Jesus Christ and will accept Him as their Lord and Savior. The good news for them is that they will then be guaranteed life everlasting with Christ. The bad news for them, is they will be here for all the wrath and destruction and many will die because they accepted Christ.

The Second Coming of Christ takes place AFTER the Tribulation. Revelations 19 & 20 tell of the second coming and Rev 20: 1 - 10 tell of how all believers in Christ will reign with Him for 1000 yrs before the "Great White Throne of Judgement."

This 4 part series gets into the details of all I have mentioned. These things I do truly believe will come to pass exactly as John tells it.

One thing I know for sure is if I live my life believing in Christ and believing the Bible is God's word, I have nothing to lose. If I die and none of it was true, there is no consequence.

BUT if I live my life NOT believing in Christ and I don't study God's word to know Him better I have everything to lose. I would die, see that it was all true, and be condemned to He!!.

I'll take my chances with Christ Jesus.

EWB

Karen, I am not sure where I am getting stuck, I have been trying to put it into words and not succeeding. Estepp, Glenda, Jo, Luann and others I welcome your thoughts.

What I have been taught was that Jesus was born to Mary, Joseph was not the father, God was. When he reached his 30s he began to wonder the land and talk about God, healing people/miracles to show he had special abilities from God. People gave him a hard time, eventually he was nailed to a cross and died. Put in a grave/cave, later the ladies came to see the grave and the body was gone. We are told that he went to heaven (how do we know) where he helps God judge others.

If Jesus is the human form of God, why do we need to accept Jesus specifically and not the trinity as a whole. What is it that we are accepting or acknowledging. How can really good people who care for others, serving God not be accepted into heaven if they do not specifically accept Jesus as (fill in the blank)?

moodyk13

See EWB, one of the reasons I LOVE you and love this thread, is because I think questions like yours are SO IMPORTANT for everyone to understand so that their faith can grow and put all uncertainties aside.

I am going to spend some time in prayer and with the scriptures before I give you MY personal understanding and beliefs of Jesus, His life, His role, and His resurrection.  I would just ramble it off now, as it is so clear in my head, but I know God needs me to spend some time with Him, because this is about you and not about me.

I have chemo at 1:30 and will be back after 3:30.  I will respond sometime after that.  In the meantime, hopefully others will post thier beliefs and understandings so that you have more insight. 

I still think it is important to hear from more than just me. 

You just keep your communication open with God, and you will know in your heart when His truth is revealed to you. Once you know it, you will have this unexplained peace deep in your gut, no matter what life throw at you.

EWB

Moody, I love how you get excited when a challenge comes your way.

One of the good things that has come from no working is having quiet time to ponder these things and try to resolve for myself the questions I have.  And boy do I have lots of questions. Unfortunately there are not questions I can ask @ church and they do not have Sunday school for adults, bible study yes, but that's not quite what I need right now.

Hope all goes well today @ therapy, and that Olivia is doing well (and an answer is coming soon for her!)

Elaine

moodyk13

I am working on it.  Keep checking back

LuAnnH

I am still stuck on my other comment, so people like me and Elaine would not be accepted right away if the end were to come now?  that is kind of what you are saying.

In reference to the question Elaine struck up, I believe in God and that his son Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.  Then it goes on to form the holy trinity, father, son and holy ghost.  So what is the difference if I believe in God or Jesus Christ.  In my eyes they are the same person. 

There you go Karen, getting more than you asked for  LOL  I need to find the other thread to check on your daughter.  I hope she is doing ok.  I pray for her and have others praying for her

moodyk13

Well I just want you both to know, I certainly did not take this question lightly.  In fact, I have spent over 3 hours in my Bible, but I LOVE doing that, so   So here I go:

Salvation Through Jesus Christ

Jesus has been the flesh form of God since the earth was made: Gen 1:26-27; John 1:14; 1Tim 3:16

God lets us know in the O.T. that He is coming to us in the flesh:  Isaiah 7:14 - 16; 9:6 - 7; Malachi 3:1

Salvation through Jesus Christ was established in the O.T. start as early as:  Gen 3:15

He is recognized as the Savior as an infant and in His childhood:  Luke 2:30 - 32; 2:40

Began witnessing at age 12:  Luke 2: 41 - 50

Jesus resurrection was witnessed as He walked from Jerusalem to Damascus by over 500 people, for 40 days and recorded 23 times in the N.T.:  1 Cor 15:6 & Acts 1:3

His resurrection is our assurance of life everlasting.  If He does not conquer the grave, then how can we possibly conquer it.

The whole purpose of His coming was to be our Savior:  Isaiah 35:4; 45:22

It was established back in the O.T. that we can not come into the presence of God Almighty because we are of sin.  He can not be where sin is, except in flesh form.  (Leviticus is an excellent book of the Bible that tells of how we are to come before God)  So we must come through Jesus - God in the Flesh.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly is we are to live by faith.

            Romans 1:16 - 17  "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith.'"

Established through Jesus Christ:

            Romans 5: 8 - 11  "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.   And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

In closing, the Bible is full of why Jesus came to earth in the first place.  To give His life for us so that we too will have life everlasting.  If we are not to call on Jesus, then His crucifixion was for nothing, meant nothing, and does nothing.  It is easier to understand my only way to God is through Him in flesh form-Jesus- accepting Him as my savior, than to try and figure out a "justification" for not accepting Him, that there "should" be more than one way to Him, there "must" be more than one way to Heaven.  If this were true, why bother to send Jesus to do all He has done.  Sin wouldn't matter, there would be no consequence for not believing, it would have been in vain and totally useless. 

And I lose NOTHING by accepting Jesus as my Savior, but if I dont, and die and see that the bible is true, then it is too late, and I lose everything.

Anonymous

EWB: you ask 'How do we know Jesus went to heaven from the grave' - see Mark 16:19 "...¹⁹After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. '

You also say "If Jesus is the human form of God, why do we need to accept Jesus specifically and not the trinity as a whole" - we do accept the Trinity as a whole and we speak of Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit separately and interchangeably. I am truly sorry that you don't have a Bible Study at your church.  There is so much to learn; so much good stuff. 

LuAnnH - you also had the same basic question - Jesus and God are one:  see John 1:1 and 1:14.

Here's a website that I find extremely helpful:  http://www.biblegateway.com/

Hopefully many of your questions can also be answered there.  An excellent resource is the Life Application Study Bible; I use the NIV version.  It has easy commentary about the scriptures on each page and goes a long way toward gaining a deeper understanding.

Moody:  Thanks for your teaching ministry.

EWB

Patoo and Moody- thanks for the information. More questions as I think this thru. Thank you so much for your patience, resources, thoughts and ideas. Please bear with me, I apologize if I offend anyone with questions or the choice of words I use. Just trying to make sense of it all.

Ok- so Jesus is here, dies and goes to heaven. He has willingly died for our sins...what sins? Why does his death make up for what we might do during our lifetime. Jesus pays the price for me, but to whom? What is he saving us from?

If I believe what about Jesus what happens? And why does that not happen if I believe in God as the foundation of my life, as the support in times of trouble, my mentor, my guide thru life, the source of gifts? Is Jesus the "front man" for the group?

This is a day the Lord hath made, rejoice and be glad in it.

Elaine

moodyk13

patoo,  HI!!  Glad your here, and I pray we here more from you!

EWB, please do not worry about offending anyone.  You are seeking answers to your very own spiritual journey and for that you are commended!  If you dont ever ask, how can you be clear in your own mind?

I would so much rather people ask your types of questions, than to never know the wonders of our Savior.

With that said, it is time for me to jump head first into my Bible, so that I may hopefully be able to give you some guidance.

Did you ever buy a new bible?  (It was you that was going shopping along time ago wasnt it?)  Patoo  is right, the Life Applications Bible is wonderful.  I also have the "New Student Study Bible" (NIV) and the one I use all the time, my favorite one ever is "Nelson's NKJV Study Bible"  I bought it about 1 1/2 yrs ago, and it is fabulous!

Okay, I am off to pray, submit, and see where God leads me.  Be back later! 

P.S. God is obviously working in your life, and more importantly, Elaine, He is using YOU to reach others!  I have no doubt someone is reading this thread or will read this thread that is too afraid to ask these questions. You are absolutely helping them too.  It is no accident you are here, sweet lady, so you keep asking.

moodyk13

Here is how I respond to your first two questions.  I dont want to give my responses all at one time, be too much reading and I don't want anything to be missed.  I'm gonna do seperate posts.  I feel this stuff is way too important and eveyone needs time to research and review the scriptures.

Because I think it is important for everyone to read God's word, I am only going to include the actual verses sparingly.  Please look up any referenced scripture, God may speak to you differently, and I don't want you to miss what He is saying:

1.  What sins did Jesus willingly die for?

Sin:  The origin of sin is a mystery, and will remain a mystery to us. For some reason God has permitted sin to enter this world.  

Deuteronomy 29:29  "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." 

God has us on a "need to know" basis, because He wants us to have faith - the primary idea is to trust.

Adam's sin (Gen 3:1-6) consisted of his giving in to temptation and eating the forbidden fruit. It involved (1) the sin of unbelief, and (2) the guilt of disobedience.  

Sins listed:  Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:29, in addition to the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1 - 17) pretty well covers them all.

2.  Why does His death cover our sins for what we do in our lifetime?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."  

Since we are all sinners, we all need forgiveness.  During the Old Testament days, the only atonement for sin was animal sacrifice.  They had to be perfect and the best a man had to offer.  The best bull, the perfect lamb.  Partly because God is perfect, and partly to show that they would give up the very best they had to God and not hold the best/perfect animal in a higher regard to God by substituting a "less valuable" animal.  The problem though was, these sacrifices had to be done over and over and over again through out the year.

This wasn't the way God had ever intended to accept atonement for sins, but He commanded it in order to establish the way to be forgiven was to offer up the very best, and shed the blood of the very best. 

In the OT sacrifices also resembled "death of sin" by the death of the sacrifice.  The death of Jesus, shedding His blood was the ultimate perfect sacrifice, the final death to our sins, because there is nothing left to sacrifice.  No animal or person can top Jesus, so any sacrifice after Him would be obsolete.

His resurrection guarantees us ever lasting life.  With all the powers of God witnessed throughout the OT, the resurrection of Jesus is the ultimate display of Divine power.

We are sinners, and we will sin until the day we die because of Adam and Eve.   

There is nothing left in our lifetime that we can do to be forgiven now except to believe that Jesus did pay the final price for our sins. 

Hebrews 10:10 "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Anonymous

Hi, please research the scriptures moody has because you will get much more detail.  My responses are a lot more simplistic, mainly to give only a thought but more in-depth study is called for. 

 I apologize if I offend anyone with questions or the choice of words I use. Just trying to make sense of it all.  Don't worry about this.  Proverbs 3:5 says ‘...lean not on your own understanding...'  You should always ask questions but then you are to search for yourself to test the validity of the answers.

Ok- so Jesus is here, dies and goes to heaven. He has willingly died for our sins...what sins? Original sin was disobedience by Adam and Eve..  We continue to be disobedient in almost all areas of our life.  Sin is sin, whether it be only one or a multitude.

Why does his death make up for what we might do during our lifetime.  God never said it would be easy and we continue to commit the same sins over and over and over.  We could not begin to pay the price equivalent to what He did, dying for us.  There is no greater sacrifice because Jesus was sinless so He didn't die to save himself but to save us.

Jesus pays the price for me, but to whom? What is he saving us from?  Eternal separation from God.  Our time here on earth is so fleeting compared to the length of time in eternity.

If I believe what about Jesus what happens? And why does that not happen if I believe in God as the foundation of my life, as the support in times of trouble, my mentor, my guide thru life, the source of gifts? Is Jesus the "front man" for the group?  Don't forget the Trinity - God and Jesus are one.

Again, thanks for asking these questions because it will make others (me included!) get into His Word more often (especially as the questions get harder which is a welcome challenge).

Moody, I will be looking for the "Nelson's NKJV Study Bible" this weekend.  Can never have too many.

moodyk13

patoo, thank you so much for posting here!  My son was having some doubts a few years ago, and in an effort to help him better understand the Bible, I spent hours studying it.  Then I started reading at Genesis and read it straight thru to Revelations.  It was his questioning that broguth me to a whole new level in my Christian walk.  I say "ask, ask, ask" !  LOL

The Nelson's study Bible is out of print in some areas.  I bought 2 online for Christmas presents in Dec.  and they were only about 35$.  I will look to see if I can find the website and post it here for you.

I do believe we can never have too many Bibles!  I have 2 on my BlackBerry, 2 on my laptop, 2 KJV, 2 NKJV, 1 NIV, and my daughter has GW so I can use it whenever I want.  I guess it also just proves my "OCD"  less the "C" as I am not compulsive, but absolutely obsessive.  LOL 

moodyk13

Elaine's questions 3 & 4 

3.    Who did Jesus pay this price to?

Jesus paid it to the One who sent Him- God the Father.  Romans 8:3 Hebrews 10: 5-7

4.    What exactly is He saving us from?

 Since we have ALL sinned and the wages of sin is death, Jesus is saving us from ourselves.

Romans 6:22  "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have hour fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life." 

And this is VERY important: 

Romans 6:23  "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

See, it is impossible for us to save ourselves, because we are all sinners (Rom 3:23)

LuAnnH

Ok, ladies, I am finally finished reading genesis!  I know I am slow, my biggest problem is when they start talking all the family heritage I just get lost.  My little pea brain can't handle all that info in one shot.

I am curious is there some significance to Joseph's tunic?  It seemed to be emphasized but then not much more about it.  I know you are jumping around here a bit now but am on my continued journey to read through this book.  Its something I've always wanted to do in my lifetime and never got this far and understanding deeper meaning.

EWB

Joseph and the many colored coat? In those days having many colors and/or bright colors was sign of wealth and position, most people had single colors and dull muted colors.  For Joseph's father to give him a colorful coat was putting him ahead of the brothers, showing favor.

moodyk13

yep.

Lu, I am glad you stuck with Genesis.  keep reading it and asking.  We can talk about more than one subject at the time.  Besides, I think Genesis and Revelations are intertwined

marshakb

And Joseph's brothers were very jealous of him!   There is even a Broadway play about Joseph and that coat.

moodyk13

Elaine, 5, 6, & 7---my responses to some tuff yet excellent questions 

 5.    What do I need to believe about Jesus, and what happens if I do?

John 7:38, Acts 16:31, Romans 7:24, Romans 6:17, Eph 2:4 - 9,

6.  Why isn't believing in God not the same as believing in Jesus?

Romans 3:22 "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.  For there is no difference;"

John 1:1-4  " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.  In Him was life and the life was the light of men."

John 1:14  "And the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth."

John 8:12  " Then Jesus spoke to them saying, 'I am the light of the world.  He who follows Me sahl no walk in darkness, but have the light of life'."

and lastly John 8:19 Jesus tells us if we know Him then we know our Father. 

See Jesus is God, and if one doesn't believe in Jesus, how can one then say they believe in God?  For it is much more of faith to say "Yes, I beleive in Jesus Christ, Son of God, God in the flesh".  Millions of people say "I believe in God."  But what does that mean?  Does it mean they believe in a higher power? 

If so, this "higher power" in infinite wisdom and strength, who can flood the whole earth, part the Red Sea, turn a rod into a serpent and back again, cause plagues in Egypt, feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread, rain manna from Heaven to feed the children of Israel, tumble the Wall of Jericho, save 3 men from the burning furnace, hide Lot from the soldiers, protect Jonah in the belly of the whale,TAKE A TINY GRAIN OF NOTHING AND MAKE THIS ENTIRE UNIVERSE, yet believe that He can't become flesh and walk amoung us?  Believe that God has the power to save us from death, from the grave with the promise of a place called Heaven, which BTW, we HAVE NOT seen, but He can't come in the flesh that 1000's DID see and touch and hear and smell?

If one denies ONE miracle, they deny them all when it pertains to God.  Why would God give us the Bible, His word, that was compounded over centuries by many, many prophets, yet NEVER changed, only to be "making up" the part about becoming flesh and dwelling here?

SO........believing in Jesus, IS believing in God, but to deny Jesus, is to deny God.

7.  Is Jesus the "Front Man" for "the group"?  Nope:  

1 John 5:7 " For there are three that bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three agree as one."

EWB

You have given me much to study and ponder, Karen, much to ponder.

I have not found a study bible or guide, etc. I know some where you had mentioned some you like, would you mind reminding me what they are? Anyone else's favorite sources, resources are also gladly received.  THANK YOU

moodyk13

EWB, I have "Nelson's Study Bible, NKJV" and it is my favorite.  I also have "New Student Bible, NIV" which is also very good, it just doesn't have as much help in it as the Nelson's does.

EWB

Thank you, love the new picture, very handsome.

sunkistmi

I was on my way to logging off when I noticed this thread.  WOW!  This is amazing.  For EWB, our son, who was raised in the church, informed us last June that he "didn't believe in God the way we did any more and wasn't living his life like we thought he was; that he was a fraud".  I told him we would continue to pray that God would make himself absolutely known to him and then every night since, DH and I have prayed that God would 'get in his (son's) face in a very real way.  Two weeks ago, he called and asked if I would mind getting him a new bible.  I can honestly say that the room actually "swam" and tears came.  He had an NIV version, but had looked at one called THE MESSAGE in a bookstore.  I was at the bookstore the next day and this version is wonderful.  I would suggest it to anyone.  It sort of reminds me of the old Living Bible from many years ago but I think it is more correctly translated.  It is extremely readable.  There is a version that has the NIV on one side and The Message on the other that would be great for someone who wanted to have two versions without the bulk of two separate books.  He specifically wanted a certain version.  Long story short, he is now attending a church at school and gave me a big hug and thanked us for not giving up on him.

I think this is a wonderful thread for those asking so many of the questions that truly mean life and death.  Keep asking questions and keep minds open.  I so appreciate the fact I haven't seen too many people lashing out, rather an honest exchange of questions and answers.

God bless all searchers of truth.

Blessings,

Wendy