Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

KBL - Look at that! I commented on your post.

Hi KBL- I don’t believe that you want anyone to die. But in order to arrest this virus we need to get to worldwide herd immunity. I believe that means that 80% of the world population is vaccinated. Until that happens, the virus will continue to mutate, necessitating more boosters. It has been proven that breakthrough cases have happened with the fist iteration of the vaccine, but the vast majority aren’t hospitalized, much less died. I believe in freedom of choice for many things but only when your choice doesn’t put others at risk. Of course I don’t mean you, individually, but it’s the sum total of all the people who choose to not vaccinate, that will prevent herd immunity. I believe that other viruses will crop up in the future and our collective ability to effectively respond will determine our future

KBL you say that we have "succumbed to the pressure" and it reminds me about people saying we are sheep. I can also say that you have succumbed or are following your articles like sheep. What is the difference? How is that not taking the moral high ground?

I'm not sure if you were hoping for more agreement than you are getting but no one has personally attacked you or your opinion but have supplied some actual evidence that you don't want to hear. Everyone has been respectful so I don't understand why you are getting upset.

" if you truly cared about everyone, you would care about the unvaccinated too."

KBL, I do care about the unvaccinated. I don't want anyone who is unvaccinated to become infected and I don't want anyone who is unvaccinated to die. I shudder when I read posts, either here or on FB, where people gloat or talk about karma when someone who was unvaccinated died; I think it's terrible when someone who is unvaccinated died. I worry most about those who are unable to be vaccinated due to comorbidities.

As for runor, I hope my posts have not appeared to be attacks - they certainly were not meant to be. runor and I may disagree on this but we agree on a whole lot of other things.

Moth, I just read your post before I hit submit on mine. Bravo.

Gosh, I wanted to stay away from this topic and data wars. I took a peek and found the turn this discussion has taken has it a stone wall. What I know is that vaccinated people are far less likely to become seriously ill or die from Covid than are unvaccinated people. I won't quibble about numbers and percentages. It's not cruel or piling on to say that if more people were vaccinated there would be a reduction in fatalities and hospitalizations. If that statement has been disputed here I missed it. Pivoting from the topic under discussion to other worthy endeavors doesn't invalidate the value of vaccination to oneself or loved ones. Being an all around humanitarian is not a prerequisite to have strong feelings about the value of vaccination. It can be a“selfish" choice that also happens to help others. At least it doesn't hurt others and the risk is yours. I value my septuagenarian life with Stage 4. I resent the hell out of Covid and what it has done to all our lives as we head to our respective corners. What we seem to forget is that “No man is an island".

Jetcat, one additional piece of recent info is that it appears with the Delta variant having a higher R rate, it means that we need a higher vaccination rate for herd immunity. I'm seeing estimates in the high 80s or 90s.

It actually is a moral issue, I think so I have no problem discussing it from a morals philosophy perspective. I think it's immoral to knowingly expose to others to harm.

Regarding the collateral harm to others - it's a difficult thing to untangle. Suicide stats in my province went down in 2020. A new study from US Veterans showed the same. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/08/25/sui...

There definitely have been hardships for many. It's been very difficult to balance everyone's needs during lockdowns, school closures, workplace closures etc.

Vaccination is meant to *relieve* all that suffering. But it only works if we all do it.

"far too many of you have abdicated your responsibility to THINK but instead jumped on the bandwagon" This is very insulting.

How do you know who thought about what? How does this not describe your position?

KBL, your question about vaccinated possibly also spreading was asked & answered before (either here or on the rants).

Yes, vaccinated people can get it and can be symptomatic and infectious, or asymptomatic and infectious - esp with the new Delta variant which is both more aggressive and more transmissible. But the RATE at which they do is is way lower than unvaccinated people.

You seem to want to prove the point that "the vaccine doesn't work so why bother taking it'. That is not a position which is backed by evidence. The vaccine is not a guarantee of immunity. It is a risk reduction. Just like our cancer treatments are not guarantees of a cure - they reduce risk of dying of cancer.

Can vaccinated people transmit covid? Yes. Because vaccines don't guarantee immunity https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-vaccinated-...

How do vaccinated people spread delta? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

& bottom line the unvaccinated pose more of a risk because they're more likely to be infected - FIVE times more likely to be infected https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-un...

KBL, when discussing Covid, it naturally includes illness, recovery, community concern, and death. It doesn't include any of the moral topics you brought up in your post. However, if you think we should be talking about defending De Santis or not, or what our response to Afghanistan was, or many of the homeless camps around the country, then I believe those can be separate threads. As far as monoclonal therapy goes, by all means let's discuss that here.

Just because the majority of people commenting here don't agree with your view doesn't establish that majority as right. That kind of thinking is like adopting whatever is in the majority is always right. I don't understand why right and wrong is even injected into the conversation when nobody expressed their desire to be right.

Anyone here could equally think that you are digging in your heels as well, which it wouldn't matter because we are all free to express our opinions as long as it does no direct harm. If you feel threatened by an adverse opinion then there's not much anyone can say to make you not feel attacked. We are exchanging opinions and facts. As someone mentioned, they should be differentiated. My opinion is still just an opinion. I still think it's unfair for you to bring up any kind of measure for morality, especially if it's unrelated to the topic at hand. Being upset about illness and death from Covid is not a moral high ground in my opinion. Illness and death should also not be equated to housing the poor or any of the other topics you brought up. Everyone is trying to keep to the topic. Everyone is ranting as you expressed you wanted them to.

As a minority (ethnicity) I find it off putting that you feel threatened because there is an obvious majority opinion in this thread. If I walked around like that in my normal life, I would be a depressed person. I have been placed in many situations as the minority, even in my chosen career as a women in tech, and I felt I was right. With your acceptance of majority rules, I would have been wrong. So, you could just ignore those opinions and feel you are right.

Wrenn. Seriously?  Have you not read the posts? I have taken pains not to be personal. I have taken pains to describe my position from my perspective always saying that I am open to information. I have read some very nasty things hurled at me. Extremely insulting. And NOW you're going to notice an insult?!  You may notice my insult but please, in the name of equity, go back over the posts and also note all the other remarks that are also insulting and mean, chiefly aimed at me. Some that probably you yourself wrote. I do absolutely stand by my assertion that in this whole global event there has been way too much reacting and knee- jerk decision making made without adequate consideration and thought. There was a LOT at stake here in taking the measures we did. Was it worth it, was not weighed. Was it warranted, was not weighed. Could we do something different ,was not asked. There are as many costs to people and society that are not being tabulated, not getting daily news coverage, just not glossy enough for mainstream media dogs. If you save one person but mangle 5 in the process have you done anything good? Anything worth congratulating yourself over? I see mangled outcomes but if all you look at is the news and BH you are blissfully unaware that there is a massive network of effects in place. If you focus on' case counts' you are safe from the bigger picture. Every time I hear a case count mentioned I yell the same thing, "What does that even mean? What does that tell us? How was that data gathered? Who was tested? Of those who were tested and positive, how many of them were sick and how many were just fine? " These IMPORTANT and useful questions are not answered on the nightly news. Instead we just see Bonnie Henry, in need of some lipstick, blush and under eye cream yapping on about whatever the hell she yaps on about. And I am as uninformed at the end as when she started talking. I do see a citizenry that has abdicated its responsibility to think. Just as all of you see me as abdicating my responsibility to follow instantly invented rules and put aside concerns for my own health in favour of your health. 

I am a selfish individualist pretty much, but one thing that does hit my altruism button is the fact that as a Stage IV patient who has to visit the infusion room every three weeks, I do care about the other patients who have no choice about coming in contact with me, some of whom are much more vulnerable than I am.

And, I care about the nurses and doctors and others who have been taking a lot of risks to be there and provide care this whole time.

So while I am a little bit selfish and rebellious, and I don’t think I’m a hero for being vaccinated, I do have some sense of duty in my selfish little heart. Of course, there’s some self interest there, too - do I really want to be in a hospital every three weeks unvaccinated?

I know there’s some chance that as a vaccinated person I could still carry the virus, but I do hope the odds have been lessened by the vaccine.

For you, MountainMia. One of my favorite poems.

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of a continent, a part of the main; if a cloud be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." John Donne.

"You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into." Jonathan Swift.

Trish

I share a lot of similar sentiment of the ladies who have already commented.

Just want to chime in about the need of booster and how some may think it means vaccine isn't working as it's supposed to.

I think the best analogy may be breast cancer, especially for those of us who are living with mBC. We all know at some point (with the exception of outliers), cancer will evade whatever treatment we are on, and we progress. however, does that mean the regime we have been on and no longer responding to won't work for other people? no, of course not.

Virus is the same. variants and breakthrough cases happen. Delta is more transmissible and carries 1000x more viral load than the original Covid strain. Also, delta wasn't there during the period of vaccine clinical trial, and most of the country had some sort of restrictions such as masks and social distancing. All this doesn't mean vaccine is not working as it is supposed to. Vaccine effectiveness against hospitalization & death have held up.

At the end of the day, I do not think any of us want to end up with severe covid and put our treatment on hold and let cancer progress.

I am so glad to hear that our medical professionals are willing to risk their lives for the unvaccinated