Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

AlwaysMeC

TB90, not only that, but they take a risk knowing they have family, such as children, who could be exposed to higher viral loads because of their jobs. Or, in the case of some, they sacrifice being with their families and live separately to limit exposure. They ask us to vax and/or follow social distancing, but there's a whole lot of apathetic people demanding their freedom to catch and spread the virus because they are willing to bet their own lives and take whoever along with them.

A doctor in our county lost his life from treating patients, yet the careless honor his sacrifice by protesting against mitigation.

Teedoff

Runor, this isn’t a dis. Just a clarification. If I’ve got it right, you are not convinced that enough trustworthy evidence exists to support widespread vaccination as the best way to reduce deaths and hospitalizations due to Covid. You are also concerned that not enough serious consideration is being given to alternatives, that mistakes have been made along the way, and that not enough consideration has been given to possible long term negative consequences of the vaccines. Your evaluation concludes, nope, not for me. Correct me if I have misstated anything or left out something that is also important to you. I just wanted to drill down to your essentials without analogies or assumptions. A lot has been lost in the exchange of posts.

Full disclosure, I, on the other hand, do believe that vaccines are the best defense we have at the moment but I’m not yelling at you. I can understand why some have taken offense at what can reasonably be interpreted as your being dismissive of the value of their lives. You can think on a macro level while others may react on a micro or personal level, especially when they have experienced loss. Please don’t choose to be offended and remember that discourse can get heated because people care deeply. Caring, passion, and belief in shared responsibility for the public good does not mean that we are non thinking sheep. And yes, that cuts both ways

KBL

Man, I can't seem to pull away. It's so hard. I got a shower and really want to go to sleep, but I just can't help opening the post back up and reading.

TB90, to be fair, I didn't ask the healthcare worker if she was vaccinated. They do not have to be at the facility I visited. So she could infect me as well. She was also masked, but we didn't get close to each others’ faces. Man, I definitely need to buy stock in hand sanitizer. To assume I put her at risk is really not fair at this point. Maybe next time I'll ask her. I assume many healthcare workers who don't want the vaccine and aren't mandated to are still working. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable asking them if they are vaccinated.

Oh, I just thought of something too. This is the same person who does my scans every time I go. The very first time I went there, I sat in a chair while she tried to insert the IV for the contrast. This was pre COVID. Anyway, she was having an issue. Why, I don't know. She took her gloves off, and my blood started to spurt out. She got my blood all over her hands. I would have freaked out. It didn't even seem to faze her.I know that's a little off topic, but ewwwww!!

TB90

Sorry KBL, but my preference is in preserving health care workers. Not in making unvaccinated patients feel at ease.

TB90

clarification

unvaccinated by choice.

KBL

Okay. But if she's not vaccinated, why would I have to make her feel at ease? She didn't seem the least bit uneasy. She asked the question and I was honest. I don't have to tell anyone my vaccine status. I have been asked by healthcare workers, but I do not have to be truthful or tell them at all. That's not me. If they don't want to treat me, they will need to speak up for themselves.

What about those that have no choice, like firefighters and ambulance workers? They take care of many more people in a day. I'm sure they're not allowed to ask patients if they're vaccinated.

moth

healthcare workers, first responders etc all undertake some risk when they take on their jobs. The question is how much risk is reasonable? Our health authorities can refuse service to people who are belligerent or abusive or violent. Employers have a duty to provide protection to staff as much as possible, whether it's through PPE or providing additional security.

For surgery in the Vancouver area right now you have to have a negative covid test before you will be booked for your surgery. No test, no surgery. As a patient, I would prefer if all my caregivers are vaccinated. So far, everyone has been but it's an interesting issue of what info do we ask about each other.

KBL, the science seems pretty clear that covid is an airborne virus. There is hardly any evidence of fomite transmission so hand sanitizer is not really helpful. Distance, proper masking (preferably with an N95 or similar), reducing duration & number of exposures, room ventilation & vaccines are the mitigation strategies.

I mean clean hands are good for lots of other reasons & I still have hand sanitizer everywhere but not useful for this.

Anonymous

yes, chowdog I considered that too - the possibility of having to interrupt treatment due to COVID. A few years ago, long before COVID, I knew a daughter whose mom with breast cancer had to be hospitalized for something else. The daughter was frantic because she couldn’t get the hospital to give her mother the femara she was supposed to be taking. And that was “ just” a femara pill. I don’t like gambling that much.

TB90

KBL: I don’t have the time to keep up this banter. I stated my stance and stand by it. I think a break would be good. I really do not need to be convinced that you are right. I really do not need you to agree with me as I get you never will. I just wanted to rant. If I were you I would be exhausted, exacerbated and (looking for a third word starting with an e as it had such a nice rhythm).

At a certain age, I realized that I didn’t need to be right. Just able to sleep at night with my beliefs and have integrity. I treat all, including myself, at risk of Covid and do everything I can to protect others and myself. I have staff who are not vaccinated and I do not ask. But I enforce strict protocols. I love my team and try to understand. But here, I get to rant. I don’t want to engage in personal dialogue which is why I didn’t address anyone by name until now. I cannot even imagine feeling the need to defend and justify yourself. Multiple times daily. Again, I recommend a break. If you were on my team, I am certain I would love you too.

kathindc

And that is why everyone should wear a mask.

I have a friend who is an EMT. Before they get to the patient, they put on PPE regardless of what type of call they are on.

Jetcat

TB90– how about enebriated? lol

no offense intended to anyone of course

kathindc

Let's put some perspective to what we are facing:

https://youtu.be/2cEXfJc6_d0

If this isn’t an eye opener, I don’t know what is. I don’t think we’ll have the luxury of another 100 years before we see something like this again.

KBL

I agree I don’t want to banter, but when I am being spoken to, I respond. It’s just my nature.

Thank you for caring enough to think I need a break. I’m getting there. Actually, I’ve been thinking each day after I post many times. I have to say this thread has taken my mind off the shit cancer and placed me in a different place. I’m truly wondering if that’s why I’ve been sleeping better. By the time I lay my head down, I’m exhausted, but to me, it’s a good exhausted. I’ve been able to put the cancer in the back for a while.

Sadly, the cancer has to come back to the forefront. I’m having some medical issues with it, which I won’t get into, and I think I really need to step away from here for a while and focus back on the cancer. You don’t know how hard that’s going to be. I don’t want to go. I will have to force myself not to look here so I can try to get back on track health wise.

Even though we’ve had our moments of tension, I have felt compelled to come back. Some have thought it useless to talk to me about this, but I have not thought it’s been useless. I really do feel compelled to answer people when I’m addressed, even when not by name.

Moth and SerenityStat, I read your attachments.

I really could ask so many more questions. I really appreciate all of you for making this rant page so popular. I know many have come to read but don’t respond.

My intention was to have it be a rant, but it’s become more of an info hub, which I know people have appreciated.

I am going to challenge myself to stay away. We shall see.

TB90

All the best in what you are dealing with. Just hate how cancer thinks it’s boss.

TB90

Jetcat: Perfect!

runor

AlwaysMeC - I use the term white westerner in the most generic sense and I hope no offense was take as none was intended. I am not a person of colour but nor would I say that most people who meet me would peg me as white. I have been claimed by various ethnic groups as one of their own as I tend towards beige more than white. 

Teedoff,  I will try to answer  as clearly and honestly as possible. 

You:  If I’ve got it right, you are not convinced that enough trustworthy evidence exists to support widespread vaccination as the best way to reduce deaths and hospitalizations due to Covid.
 -  I am not convinced that enough trustworthy evidence exists to support the FORCE, direct or indirect  to be vaccinated as the best way to reduce deaths and hospitalizations. I feel absolutely that vaccines should have been made available to anyone who wants one.( +++this sentence removed at mods request+++) I also never felt that we should lock down, mask, vaccinate to keep our hospitals empty. That was never, in my estimation, a worthwhile goal.  I am not against vaccines. I am against force. 

You:   You are also concerned that not enough serious consideration is being given to alternatives, that mistakes have been made along the way, and that not enough consideration has been given to possible long term negative consequences of the vaccines.
 - Yes. I am concerned that not enough consideration was/is given to alternative methods, approaches, and ways to handle this. I don't just mean alternative medications although those have been coming up now and then. But I have felt with the money that our PM has been throwing around like confetti at a wedding , we could have done more things like emergency field hospitals. Wasn't it somewhere in the states where emergency overflow hospitals were set up and they remained empty? I think that was a good idea. There was very little outside the box thinking. Very little creative problem solving. I think the long term effects have largely been swept under the rug because we can't even imagine the power that big pharma has. I think the long term effects needed to be weighed against how big a person's risk is. For some in high risk the risk of a novel vaccine might be worth it because you are at high risk for covid.  (THIS SENTENCE REMOVED AT MODS REQUEST ) This nuance and the ability to make these careful personal calculations has been shoved out of this global debate. Everyone is screaming JUST DO IT, WE ALL DID IT NOW YOU DO IT TOO! But we have no clue, none whatsoever, what the long term effects might be. Also, there are dissenting voices, fringe voices that are dismissed outright. Our leaders have gone with the bigger voices. But bigger isn't always better. Attention to the things you might hear whispered off to the side is a responsible way to govern. All sources should be heard and considered. I listen to a variety of people and not all of them support my view. My view has changed overtime due to the opinions and intelligent consideration of some of these people. We call someone lunatic to dismiss them. Sometimes lunatics are geniuses. 

You:   Your evaluation concludes, nope, not for me.
 - Mostly correct, but not totally accurate. I am saying no, not for me at this time. I might yet get vaxxed. I will still fight against govt mandated vax passes which create a Canadian caste system. Not against vaccines, against force.

Moth - what is my golden mean? Fair question. I don't know. All I know is that I heard the cries of death, destruction and panic and thus far, the numbers have not, for me, supported the reaction.   Not saying - yet again- that we should have done nothing at all. But THIS is not warranted. You say that I am fine with a certain number of deaths from the pandemic. If you are not okay with covid deaths, what deaths are you okay with? Because annually there are 50 - 60 million deaths globally and many of them are from preventable things like starvation and diarrhea. They are from wars, displacement and communist countries who butcher their own people. From divided countries where citizens butcher each other. How is it possible to single out covid deaths as so much more special than all the other suffering that faces humanity? Covid is not the biggest killer nor the biggest problem humans face.  Yes, you are correct, in a democracy we can disagree. But that does not mean that the majority gets to walk all over the minority. We protect minorities in this country. They are entitled to the privileges afforded everyone else. Instead of most people seeing this as a 'room for all of us' democratic situation, they see it as a fight to the death, winner takes all and the other guy gets ground into the dirt . It's more like a  Roman spectator sport with a lion and a half starved slave in a tattered loin cloth, than a democratic debate. 

I do think I've take several shots on the chin and done quite well with it. I attempt (don't always succeed) at being civil and not personal. That someone said I had been insulting while absolutely disregarding all the vitriol that was being heaped on me was rich and cherry picking. I may have been insulting for which I apologize, but I have been extremely insulted, denigrated, misrepresented and judged and tried to take it in stride. Hasn't always worked out as hoped, but I try. 

TB90

Last response and I will bugger off. This thread is like Bill Maher for me. Lots of ideas, opinions and facts. I never agree with all but love when my point of view/beliefs are expressed. So they are not just in my head. I am in an isolated community with beliefs that I respect but differ. Canadian Indigenous beliefs. I could go on forever as to why they fear the vaccine and this has not even yet been identified on this thread. But it is specific to my reality. I love when others here speak for me. I am reluctant to post as I fear interaction without face to face. I can explain anything in person. So I will continue to tune in. Thanks for the wonderful interchange of ideas.

Anonymous

KBL - Wishing you the best.

runor - I said your math stinks. Shorthand for: All right, you want to consider this an optimization problem, but you're not considering any constraints. Just letting the virus go? What about the healthcare system? And I posted an article on the harm to children. Did you see?

Elle2

Interesting read, for sure! I love to debate and appreciate those who can do it without throwing personal assaults against the other. Diversity in everything, but especially everything of importance, is more valuable than we usually give credit for. I love that we can all speak, all debate, and all agree to disagree, because in some areas of the world, its not allowed. Especially by women.

I noticed that no one has mentioned what is happening with women and the Covid-19 vaccines in regard to the lymph nodes. My surgeons will NOT allow me to get the vaccine before surgery. My oncologist has told me they are seeing a massive increase in inflamed lymph nodes being seen by women who come in after getting the vaccine. She mentioned that the inflammation lasts for several weeks. In addition, mammogram technicians in my state are now asking women, before going in for testing, whether they have had the vaccine or not in order to make notes regarding the testing if there are swollen lymph nodes. Inflammed lymph nodes should be of interest to everyone in this forum. Has any one else experienced this type of discussion with their doctors?

Anonymous

We were told of inflamed nodes soon after the vaccines were released. Recommended to wait a certain amount of time before a mammogram. Probably why we haven't mentioned it.

Elle2

And, as a breast cancer patient, doesn't that concern you at all?

Anonymous

Vaccinations are designed to trigger an immune response. That goes through the lymphatic system. It's temporary.

exbrnxgrl

Elle2,

Here is a thread specific to that issue. It hasn't been active in a couple of months but may still be relevant if this is new info to you. I had a PET a couple of weeks ago and I was asked when I had my vaccine so they could inform me of this possibility.

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/164/topics/879443?page=1#post_5670179

Trishyla

Your lymph nodes become swollen for a number or reasons including vaccines and illnesses like colds and flu. Why would that be of concern specifically to breast cancer patients? I don't understand the correlation.

gb2115

Elle2, it's of interest to me. I almost delayed a screening MRI to get the vaccine, because of the lymph node recommendations at the time. I ended up reading the CDC allergy advice which stopped me in my tracks from getting vaccinated. So I had my MRI on time and it found my recurrence. Had I rescheduled that, the tumor would have had months to grow more.

Still hoping to sort out the allergies to get vaccinated at some point here but glad the MRI was on time.

Teedoff

Thanks, runor. Glad I got the gist of it and appreciate your filling in the blanks. Since this thread has been so active, I thought it was best to try and get a grasp directly from you without anyone else’s characterization. Although our perspectives are diametrically in opposition, we are both in agreement that forced compliance is not the answer. To be clear, what I mean here is being forced by law to be vaccinated. Limitations on public access and employment are being placed on those who are unvaccinated. We see that already and understand there will likely be more. People are frightened, not just those who want to reach herd immunity through vaccination but those who do not want to be coerced. Confrontations, verbal and physical are increasing. For sure I’ll be long gone when history passes judgment on today’s events. No wisdom here, just deep sadness for us all. Too old, too tired, too sick to engage. Over and out

Anonymous

TB90 - I'm sorry that you live in a place that's vaccine hesitant. I've heard of the 2 tribes below that have gotten their communities vaccinated, but I suppose it wasn't news when others don't. Please feel free to post what you like.

There's a Mohawk community in Quebec here with a really good vaccination rate and want to vaccinate more due to the Delta variant.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/montreal/2021/8/28/1...

There's also the Cherokee Nation.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/17/how-covid19-ha...

Anonymous

I worried about the lymph node issue, I worried about any possible interactions with the cancer drugs I take, I worried about a lot of things. But ultimately a cost benefit analysis weighed out in favor of getting vaccinated.

I am still worried about the reaction I had after my second shot although I can’t say 100% that the vaccination was the cause. But I will get the third one too, eventually.

I don’t want to get COVID and I don’t want to sequester myself at home

ShetlandPony

Something is confusing me, dear runor. In the past you eloquently articulated the way it felt to have cancer force you to face your mortality. How death was no longer a vague, far-off idea, but a dreaded certainty. It seemed you felt the idea of dying before your time, so-to-speak, was a terrible one. (I hope I have summed it up properly.) To me, the advent of covid was like the advent of cancer in my life, something that immediately threatened my life in a very real way. I was so scared of possibly dying alone in a hospital. Also of having my cancer treatment paused because I was sick, and then the cancer taking over. Or even recovering but living with long covid, when that came to light. It seemed to me that those threats were so much greater than any possible risk from the vaccine. But do you not feel the risks of covid are greater than the risks of the vaccine? Same question to anyone else who has so far chosen not to avail themselves of the vaccine.

runor

I would think the lymph node issue might also be of great concern to anyone battling lymphedema as a result of surgery. I go out of my way to not get blood tests, pressure cuffs or injuries on that side or I blow up like a balloon. Heck raking the yard or splitting firewood can trigger it. Lymphedema is life long, can be disfiguring and painful. I hadn't even considered this until reading it here.