I am not a teacher. I am also extremely cautious about the virus because I am still in active early treatment.

SerenityStat, there is a huge difference with proper mitigation in schools. We have two kids still in school. They are both elementary school aged. Last year, during the summer, the school got a new ventilation system/filter system. They even purchased a gate which disinfects the kids clothing. They implemented masking, twice a day temperature checks, masks all day including recess, separated students into cohort groups of ten for indoor instruction, ate outside, the list goes on.

They go to a private school of 500 students k-12. Now compare that to public school. Masks are not required during recess. They don't have 6 feet between them, and there is not enough money to buy a new ventilation system. Teachers also aren't required to do temp and symptom checks twice a day. Kids eat indoors or out, but not distanced. Our kids' school had two cases of Covid last year - not from school, but from people visiting the families. So far this year there was one case on the first day of school! The public school closest to us had 13 cases in the same time period.

Does a teacher who retired this past June count? When we returned to school, here is what my district did:

- All classrooms across the district were fitted with a Merv 13 air filters that are regularly checked and replaced.

- teachers are keeping classroom windows open

- the district is providing hand sanitizer, sanitizing wipes, masks and shields (for teachers)

- though vaccination is not mandatory for staff, the district reports that 95% of the teachers are vaccinated. Those who are not vaccinated must test weekly.

- masking is mandatory for all, period! We do have some special needs students who may not be able to mask but I am not sure what is being done for them.
- families who do not feel comfortable sending their children to school or do not want their children to mask are being offered an optional program. An outside company will be providing an on line program. Their teachers are not district employees. Don’t know much about this as it started this school year.

I want to add that I worked for a small, well off school district that has the means, over and above assistance from the state, to do whatever is necessary to make students, staff, and parents feel safe. This is not the case with every district and highlights another inequity in public education.

I live in Texas where masks are not allowed to be made mandatory. My 7th grade started school on 8/18 and as of 8/27 they are closing the school until after labor day. 18% of students and staff were out with covid or covid symptoms.

None of the teachers were wearing masks and very few children.

This is beyond frustrating. My daughter has not had school normalcy since before spring break of her 5th grade year. She is now a 7th grader.

I'm worried about the kids and how this is going to shape their views of the world.

Bessie — I’m sure there is some overlap between anti-covid vax and people who don’t get the flu vaccine, but it’s definitely not absolute. My husband and I rarely bothered with the flu vaccine, even though our work offered it for free. Like the anti-covid vax crowd, we (mostly) didn’t bother with the annual flu shot because we were going (20s and 30s) and neither of us had ever had a major medical issue and we’re almost never sick. We probably got the flu once each in 15 years and in both cases they were fairly mild leaving us feeling sick, but not truly knocked out by it.

That being said, we paid attention to the news and when there were particulars virulent strains of flu we would get the flu shot. (maybe 3 years of of 10?)

But covid was different. We were home from work from April through June 2020 as covid precautions and we were eager for a vaccine we could take to get the world back to normal. Then in July I got diagnosed with breast cancer and our entire paradigm shifted.

We got covid vaccines as soon as we were eligible and I could find us appointments (stalking the websites and trying over and over and over again.)Going forward we will get the annual flu vaccine — my health has changed so much that we won’t risk even the flu if there is a chance to prevent us from becoming really sick. Chemo taught me what sick really looks like and I would prefer to avoid it in the future as often as I can, and a flu vaccine is a way to do that.

KBL - The article from Duke shows that repeated testing in a highly vaccinated population is working to prevent serious illness. Masks are working. Their next step is to mandate vaccination and masks to mitigate further spread. 👍

As a result, the following new guidelines will be in effect starting Monday, August 30:

• Masks will now be required on the Duke campus in all indoor and outdoor locations, unless you are exercising [outdoors] alone, eating or drinking, or otherwise not around others. After vaccinations, masks are the best way to prevent the spread of COVID. We have seen this on campus and in our health system.
• Indoor group seating at Duke Dining facilities will be temporarily suspended. All Duke Dining facilities will transition to grab and go, and more than 25 tents have been erected across the campus to provide outdoor seating for meals and other gatherings.
• Given the absences in some undergraduate classes due to increased number of students in isolation, faculty teaching undergraduate courses have the option to teach remotely for the next two weeks if they would prefer. This is not a requirement but an accommodation to allow for increased flexibility as needed; those who are able to continue teaching in person should certainly do so.
• New limitations will be placed on student activities to reduce the possibility of COVID transmissions. Individuals and groups that violate these limitations will face disciplinary consequences. Further information will be provided directly to students.
• The COVID-19 vaccination will now be required for ALL Duke faculty and staff as a condition of employment. Details will be provided directly to those employees who have not yet submitted proof of vaccination or an approved medical or religious exemption, as well as their deans or vice presidents. As of today, 92% of our 22,136 faculty and staff are fully vaccinated.

"All but eight of these individuals were vaccinated, and the vast majority of them were, and continue to be, asymptomatic. A small number have minor, cold- and flu-like symptoms, and none have been hospitalized."

Yes, that's exactly the way the vaccination is supposed to work. It doesn't stop someone from getting the virus. But it does stop most people from even knowing that they have the virus - if someone is completely asymptomatic, under normal circumstances they wouldn't go to get tested. And for those who do exhibit symptoms, the symptoms are minor and manageable.

This also highlights why it is so important to get vaccinated. The Delta variant is out there, everywhere. Those who are unvaccinated are at high risk. In Toronto, 68% of all residents are fully vaccinated (76.6% of all those over the age of 12). But our cases of Covid are increasing, as are our hospitalizations. The vast majority of cases and hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated (over 90%, last I read). Given that only 32% of the population is unvaccinated, the infection rate and rate of hospitalization among the unvaccinated must be climbing to a pretty high number. The same is likely true everywhere. That's scary to me. I don't understand how it's not scary to those who are unvaccinated.

runor, thinking about to our earlier exchange.... when you said:

"Do I not realize that millions are dead? Yes. But...how many people typically die in a year globally? Do we normally see a million die a year and this year we have 100 million dead? That would be a serious issue! But that is not what's happening. There is a spike."

I assumed that you were suggesting that the 4.5 million deaths from Covid probably didn't translate to be 4.5 million excess deaths. I interpreted your statement to be saying "Come on, we know that many of the elderly and ill who died of Covid would have died anyway."

The data I provided in fact suggests that the 4.5 million deaths from Covid most likely translates to be 7.5 million excess deaths, and this number is no doubt understated because so many of the unnecessary deaths from late diagnosis/treatment (of other diseases such as cancer and heart disease) won't happen for some time to come (to get to 7.5 million, I used the same % increase as found by the WHO in 2020, with 1.8 million Covid deaths and 3 million excess deaths). Your reply was "I do not doubt there have been excess deaths. I would want to understand better what caused those deaths and the demographics. I would want to understand how those deaths converted to life years lost."

To an earlier comment made in a different context, aren't you moving the goalposts? I disproved what I think was your point (yeah, I know that it's stupid to assume and interpret) so now it's "Ah, okay, through the pandemic we have significantly more excess deaths than there are even Covid deaths, but how many of those excess deaths should we really count? How many were a significant loss of life as opposed to just cutting a few years off at the end of someone's life? Those last few years don't count as much."

"I would want to understand better what caused those deaths and the demographics. I would want to understand how those deaths converted to life years lost." If 7.5+ million people who would not otherwise have died over the past 20 months have died because of a pandemic that has overtaken the entire world, why does anything else matter? Aren't 7.5+ million deaths too many? Isn't it something that we should be trying to stop and contain any way we can, before the 7.5 million becomes 15 million? I'm not trying to be difficult but I don't understand. At what point does this become something worthy of extraordinary action?

Maybe it's location. I am in a big city. I can't escape Covid. It is all around me. If I go out, even for a walk through our ravine, as we did yesterday, I can't help but come within 2-3 feet of people who are maskless. Any one of those people could be infected with Covid. Therefore to me, the urgency of lessening the viral load in society as a whole is critical. But maybe for those who live in rural settings, it's different. If you can easily avoid anyone who might be infected, the urgency of response to this virus and the need to tamp it down as quickly as we can might be much less evident. If that's what it comes down to, maybe I can understand that. But it's different than debating the relevance of 7.5+ million deaths.

I wondered many times when a group of people are allowed to die without intervention, if the people in power are thinning the herd.

Aram, when the first covid vax became available, the recommendation from my cancer agency was to do it just *before* your next chemo treatment - because odds are at that point your immune system is the strongest. So 1-2 days before your taxol would probably be good.

The smallpox vaccine was developed in 1759. There were still people in the early 20th century who denied the severity of the virus, refused the vaccine, and died before smallpox was finally eradicated in 1979. I'm not sure whether debating with those that are waiting for more information is worthwhile. The problem will take care of itself eventually. With improved science and communication it shouldn't take 200 years but people can be stubborn I guess.

thank you Moth and serenitystat

Here's a good read. Explains why SARS-CoV-2 was never like a cold or flu.

https://www.theinsight.org/p/novelty-means-severity-the-key-to

That anyone has to be forced or coerced to follow public health orders in a pandemic is shocking to me. Luckily it's a minority

9.7% of the Cdn covid deaths are in the 60-69 age

3.8% in the 50-59. I don't think that's so old to say "ok yeah, well you've lived long enough so no, I'll oppose public health measures to reduce everyone's risk". I just cannot feel that way.

& anyway, average life expectancy has been going up because we've taken public health measures such as norwalk & c.diff prevention, good sanitation, annual flu vaccines, monitoring for respiratory viruses etc. to keep our vulnerable populations safe. These things cost time and money and effort and as a society we do it because it's morally right.

I think it's the same here. The public has a duty to each other, no matter the age of the people involved. & bottom line is I don't see the public health measures as "mutilating" anyone.

And let's remember Canada's goal was never covid zero. It has always been about keeping hospital capacity and ICU capacity available so if *we* need to get surgery or a scan or fall & break our hip, there's a bed, a nurse and a doctor available. Why wouldn't we all take all the public health measures to make that happen?

Wards are still running short staffed and the vaccination passports & mask mandates are designed to *prevent* a situation where case numbers climb so high that they once again swamp the hospitals & ICUs. This seems to me to be a very good goal.