Rant away about COVID, the vaccine, etc.

Mods,

I haven’t seen anyone attacked! Yes, this topic generates very strong feelings but we seem to be dealing with it. I would like to thank you for warning against Ivermectin. With both the FDA and Merck (maker of the drug) warning against its use in COVID tx, it is important that folks really think about the very real risks in considering it.

Understood, illimae. My personal feeling is that although we don’t know every possible side effect nor how the vaccine might effect a given individual, we simply don’t have the luxury of waiting a year or two or more. This is a worldwide pandemic now and it has to be dealt with now. I do know enough about these (MRNA) vaccines, cells and biology in general to feel comfortable . My older daughters partner was hesitant about MRNA technology but he did get the J&J. His father is a vet. Ivermectin anyone?

I am glad to see more vaccination mandates created every day - be it at states, city or employers levels. I am hearing some insurance companies have started telling their members they would not cover some COVID related costs if patients are unvaccinated. I think this will be the best incentive to get a shot. After all why should the community pay for those who don’t care about it? Somebody used the phrase “responsible unvaccinated.” There’s no such a thing, not in my book

Melbo - I understand your point about it's' not just about me'. But I think there is a whole lot of nuance in that argument. And it's a lot of ground to cover so I won't bother. We are each dug in, you to your chosen position and me to my not- quite- convinced -yet position. 

Micromort. I have never heard that word before. I think I will name my next dog Micromort. I also have less than zero faith in anything printed in the New York Times, if that is indeed where the micromort chart was printed. 

Calling someone (and I figured it was me) She Who Shall Not Be Named is a low, low blow. It is easy to kick dirt on someone when you remove their humanity and that is 100% what that move was. Open season on people who are so low that they have no name. Not cool. Not gracious. Not dignified. Not civilized. 

I have found here, and in other places this topic is discussed (discussed! More like the Hatfields and Macoys!) that the first thing people throw off is their dignity, their civility and their humanity. Covid did not make everyone on the planet my enemy! Did not make me your enemy! We are ALL in some way feeling serious pain from this event. That most people smirk and find that 'good' when the other side suffers, that is the bigger global problem. That most people, when push comes to shove, will elbow their neighbour in the face to gain a foothold on something. Will push people out of lineups on big box black friday sales. Relationships are being torn to shreds all over the place by this. The fabric of our society and culture is torn to pieces. And I still, with my mouth hanging open in stupified horror, cannot see how any of it is justified. 

illimae - Biden's quote is easy. I don't take medical advice from politicians. I thought due to severe risk of allergy you're medically exempt? Is that official or do you want a vaccine? After my first dose I needed to confirm my reaction did not qualify as an exemption. I spoke to several HCWs and the vaccinator nurse checked the protocol to confirm I could get the second dose. If you're interested in the vaccine, what possible effects concern you?

Well, this guy, who apparently was an anti-vax activist, died this weekend.

Last year, Caleb Wallace said, "My health has nothing to do with you. As harsh as that sounds, but our constitutional, fundamental rights protect that. Nothing else ... I'm sorry if that comes off as blunt and that I don't care. I do care. I care more about freedom than I do for your personal health."

Edited to add link to the longer story. The quote from this self-centered nitwit is at the end of the article.

https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/prominent-texas-anti-mask-organizer-dies-of-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR2neg4Y5i9JeV33VVDPkBsQz86OAB7p5fzMoF4pAtKjQCJWkJVwW0HRryY

runor, since the vaccine has been available for only 1/2 of the pandemic (to date), I don't think anyone is saying that "those excess deaths are being blamed on the Unwashed as if 100% they can be traced back to quacks not vaccinating." In fact since the vaccine first became available to only a very small number of people late in 2020, I doubt that any of the 3 million excess deaths globally in 2020 can be blamed on the unvaccinated.

My graphs were an attempt to address your comment "Do I not realize that millions are dead? Yes. But...how many people typically die in a year globally? Do we normally see a million die a year and this year we have 100 million dead? That would be a serious issue! But that is not what's happening. There is a spike. Is it enough of a spike to warrant global insanity and violation of humans? No.".

While the sources I found did not have information on what number of deaths would normally be expected, the information from these sources strongly suggests that the 4.5 million Covid deaths to-date in fact translates to significantly more than 4.5 million excess deaths worldwide. This is no doubt because of the huge impact Covid has had on society as a whole, on mental health, on healthcare systems, etc.. These may not be deaths directly caused by Covid, but they are Covid deaths nonetheless. Collateral damage. As Covid drags on and on, we will continue to see these collateral damage deaths.

If these deaths are not directly from the virus itself, does this lessen the need for vaccinations? Not to me. Not if one of the primary reasons why Covid is dragging on and on is because those who are unvaccinated remain highly susceptible to Covid and therefore are catching the virus, allowing it to thrive, replicate and mutate. To me, all these extra non-Covid deaths are even more reason why it's critical to vaccinate and achieve herd immunity. Too many people have become collateral damage to this damned virus.

Here in Toronto we are now in a 4th wave of Covid. How many waves do we need, how many more lockdowns do we need before people figure out that social responsibility - masking, social distancing, getting vaccinated if you can be - is the only way this thing will end?

It appears that posters here are firmly in their corners. So be it. Although those of us who support vaccination are in the majority here, it is obvious that there are significant numbers of people who do not. Some have clearly expressed that their personal freedom takes precedence over the well-being of others. Since I have no special wisdom as to how to change minds and hearts, I leave you all having had the opportunity to express myself. Stay safe, stay well as best you can.

NOTE: Please cite sources mentioned in your posts, where applicable.

We sincerely appreciate members citing their sources with the posts.

It is helpful to see where the information and data is coming from.

So, please everyone cite sources - and a big thank you to those who have!

Here is a link to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) with extensive information on Vaccines for COVID-19.

Thank you, The Mods

Yes, you're definitely being responsible. I know Lollapalooza had proof of vaccine or a recent negative test result. I can see how annoying that would be. I wish they had the rapid tests available everywhere. I'm sorry you have this additional burden.

Here's an article about the harm to children.and HCWs.

https://time.com/6092446/pediatric-covid-19-surge/...

Notice the pattern of peds hospitalizations? The higher the vax rate, the fewer kids in hospital. Not all kids will die, but they all will suffer. Some for a long time. Note Florida has a large percentage of rich, white seniors vaccinated (excludes those in nursing homes). There was a push to get them vaccinated. I'm related (by marriage) to a few.

Seems that CDC is not supportive of the booster shots to general population. https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/healthcare/570057-cdc-panel-says-more-evidence-needed-for-booster-recommendation%3famp

Does it mean no booster shots after September 20 other than for immunicompromised, healthcare workers and residents of long-term care facilities?

I am not considered immunocompromised, so was counting on getting the booster after September 20 along with the general population. I do have antibodies >250 u/ml, but not sure if the will last until October. I am flying to Utah in October, plus switching from WFH to working some days in the office and have to commute by subway.

Thank you serenitystat, being understood rather than blamed for my vaccination status means a lot. Life is full of annoying things, I just don’t think those who are not reckless should be banned outright from normal life.

And thank you all for the good conversation, too often we ban hot topics instead of being open to other points of view and that’s not productive.

illimae - People who are unable to get the vaccine shouldn't feel guilty. I hope more eligible people can get the vaccine so it's safer for you to be out. I imagine once the virus is under control there will be looser restrictions.

astra zeneca is still going ahead with seeking US approval and it doesn't have PEG so that might help some people.

At the end of the day I don't actually think it matters why someone isn't vaccinated. If they could put people at risk, then they need to self isolate. It sucks but I don't see another way that respects community needs.

It's the endless community v individual debate I guess.