fasting

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  • TwoHobbies
    TwoHobbies Member Posts: 2,118
    edited April 2016

    Serenity, I fasted around chemo - approximately 36 hours before and try to make it through the entire chemo day. It was slightly easier around chemo since my mentality was all about fighting cancer. Two or three times post treatment I have done a fast but rarely make it more than 48 hours. I'm not sure if that is enough as far as the stem cell regeneration. Longo is developing a product that will enable you to do some low calorie meals for five days, but its not out to market yet.

    Of course I have a dinner party at a friend's house next weekend. And thus we see the difficulty of doing a fast in real life. I've always been a little afraid to do it during the work week that I may be not so functional. Let me think about maybe doing Sunday and Monday with you. If not, maybe we can sync up another time.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2016

    The fast should be at least 72 hours for the stem cell regeneration, but for practicing, 48 hours is good.

    Yes, it can be difficult to incorporate a fast sometimes. I'm lucky that my husband does it with me. Our kids eat their normal meals.

    I'll be fasting again 3 weeks from next weekend in case that would work better for you.

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited April 2016

    Looks like Longo has developed a 5-day fasting mimicking diet (FMD), which I will try to mimic. I hate having to calculate calories and percentages. But I can follow recipes...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/wellbeing/diet/why-weve...

    With overnight fasting, even for 17 hours, I can still gain weight. I've been wondering how to lose the winter and early spring pounds so maybe FMD will be my ticket once or twice a year.


  • glennie19
    glennie19 Member Posts: 6,398
    edited April 2016

    Heidi, Thanks for that link. Looks quite interesting.

  • TwoHobbies
    TwoHobbies Member Posts: 2,118
    edited April 2016

    Heidi I had seen that FMD and I tired to come up with a meal plan that would be the correct percent of fat protein and carb but I didn't ever perfect it or put it into practice. If you come up with something that works let me know as I am also interested in trying this method. I will also let you know what I devise. It's in my laptop that I left at work today.

    Edited to add: I just read the article to the bottom and it has a diet listed. I don't have to do my work. I had seen another article some time ago but it told the calories and percents so I spent time thinking up a meal plan.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited April 2016

    Heidi - Thanks for the link. May try it when I get to theTaxol part of chemo.

  • TwoHobbies
    TwoHobbies Member Posts: 2,118
    edited June 2016

    Serenity do you know where you saw the 72 hours reference to regenerate stem cells? Ive been trying to find the minimal amout of time and all i find is 2 to 5 days.

    Currently in a fast and up to 36 hours. I'm going to stick to it as long as I can and then switch to FMD to finish out five days total.At least that is my plan!

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2016

    I haven't looked in some time, but you can search this site for "Longo".

    Here's one link to an article:

    https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/

    I've finished the AC part of my chemo where I received 4 treatments every 3 weeks. I had delays in my first 2 treatments. They were supposed to be on Fridays, but were both delayed to Monday. Each time I found out about the delay after I had started my fast. So, I never had a true 3-day fast prior to treatment, but for the first 2 treatments, I fasted 4 or 5 days in the week before treatment day. For the final 2 treatments, I fasted at least 2 1/2 days prior to treatment start time. Last meal would be Friday evening. I found having the last meal in the morning was more difficult, and I had lost more weight than I wanted.

    For all 4 treatments, I waited 24 hours after the infusion ended. When the last meal is Friday evening, I would not eat until Tuesday evening. A 4-day fast every 3 weeks was doable.

    Results during AC: I never had nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Very minor constipation only in the first few days of the first AC. I got intermittent watery eyes starting with AC #2. Neutrophils were low when measured at the nadir after AC #1. When measured exactly 3 weeks from last treatment, the counts were OK. Still, MO ordered Neupogen shots for the following treatments. Increasing fatigue. A little nail darkening.

    For the first treatment I had more side effects, but I did have the port surgery the same day as my first chemo treatment. I started the chemo already constipated so I took Dulcolax before treatment. Haven't needed to take Dulcolax again. I had loss of appetite and taste changes in the first week of the first treatment. Appetite and normal taste came back the next week and weren't problems later.

    I had a weird problem after the 3rd AC treatment with neck spasms stemming from a bad sleep position related to my port. The pain was so bad that it hurt to move. Even eating was painful. I pretty much was on a liquid diet for a week because it hurt to chew.

    Other than that, the last 3 AC treatments were without side effects other than fatigue.

    I was careful with what I ate when breaking the fast. I got probiotics through milk kefir and gelatin from jello and bone broth. Both of these are supposed to help heal the gut. Don't ask me how, but my gut was fine after chemo treatments. Very happy to find a Vietnamese restaurant serving pho. The broth is delicious and just what the doctor ordered. Ice cream to make weight.

    Now that I'm on weekly Taxol, I've decided fasting at least 24 hours around treatment time is enough. My only side effect is ever increasing fatigue. No GI issues, nail darkening has not spread, no peripheral neuropathy, no watery eyes. The steroids and Benadryl are screwing up my sleep, but my MO won't drop them. He agreed to reduce them today. We'll see how tonight goes.

    I may find those links if I can't sleep, but first I need to bathe in my salt brine. I've been taking a weekly salt bath throughout all chemo treatments. I put an aloe/seaweed mask on my scalp and face at the same time. Channeling the creature from the black lagoon while I Netflix and brine!

    Hope that helps! Good luck with your fast!

  • HappyHammer
    HappyHammer Member Posts: 1,247
    edited June 2016

    Serenity and Wally- so, finished a year of treatment in May.  (Did start and AI in Feb after rads)

    Gave myself a few weeks to get the chemicals out of my body and then, went to work,.  Reduced calories, almost no sugar or anything white, limited dairy to an ounce of cheese on a big salad for supper each night, and have been working out 5-6 days a week for the past 3 weeks (an hour of cardio that equals between 7000 and 8500 steps each workout) plus a 1/2 mile cooldown walk after each workout.  Each Saturday, have walked a 5k with some friends in different venues.  This is week 4.  Have only lost 2-4 pounds depending on when I weigh.  I am 56 (well, will be 57 July 21) and didn't do much exercise for past year (or, 3).  Goodness, as much as I am working on it- seems like the lbs would be dripping off with all of the sweat.

    I did read that when one starts up a huge exercise program that the body will try to hold on to the weight for a few weeks...but, seriously...just wanting to get some weight off and have a strong and fit body.  Am going to keep it up but can you think of anything else I need to be doing?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2016

    Happy - Great job in making all those changes! If this is week 4, then 2-4 lbs is a fantastic start. I don't know how much you want to lose, but I recommend tracking your measurements, especially your waist and hip. Look up a body fat estimator by the military and see which ones it uses.

    When I was actively trying to lose fat (notice I did not write weight), I lost 2 pant sizes doing a modified version of Insanity from Beachbody while only losing a few pounds. High intensity interval training is the focus of this program, so you could try anything like that. I modified it because I'm prone to wrist and knee pain. It still worked because I kept moving. I lost another size changing my diet to a more Primal plan. I've been able to maintain the fat loss using diet without the high intensity exercise.

    What worked for me to lose fat (not doing now and I didn't do them all at once)

    1) High intensity interval training

    2) Primal (very minimal cheats to lose, not as strict to maintain)

    3) intermittent fasting (14-16 hours depending on when I felt like eating) - apparently may prevent BC - should have kept it up

    4) 3-4 days of fasting (less than 50 calories a day) - no more than once a month, start with a 1-day fast

    For exercise, the weekly 5K walks are great. I would switch the daily cardio to something else that incorporates weight training and high intensity interval training. Nerd Fitness has some routines that are good for beginners.

    I've not been able to exercise for some time, but I'm trying to start again while on Taxol. So exhausting!

    Good luck!

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2016

    TwoHobbies - Sorry to put all my chemo results. Forgot to check your signature. My main goal with fasting during chemo was to minimize the side effects. So far they have been much less than expected.

    The stem cell regeneration was found to occur with 72-hour fasts in mice. Seems Longo estimates 5 days would be the time for humans. This would be difficult for many people. Hence FMD. Those who are used to eating lower carb, not just low carb, should be able to handle a 5-day fast after practicing. I can do 1 day easily. My first 3-day fast was in January this year. Doing it every 3 weeks on chemo was a little hard.

    From what I remember Longo thinks those with a history of cancer should try longer or more frequents fasts than those without. Can't remember where I read it. My plan after chemo is done is to do a 5-day fast twice a year along with daily intermittent fasting. I will try to do one in August before radiation starts. I'll see what the blood tests show afterwards. They test before radiation right? During radiation, I will try daily intermittent fasting, have the radiation in the morning, and break the fast afterwards. Not certain if I can do it every day.

    Here's a list of his publications

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Longo%2C+...



  • TwoHobbies
    TwoHobbies Member Posts: 2,118
    edited June 2016

    Well I made it to 60 hours but then I felt horribly horrible, and since I'm working I had to break the fast but am getting through the day on the fast mimicking diet. Yes Serenity I did chemo and I did fast some but maybe not enough hours. I do intermittent fasting every day and then I do a couple of days two or three times a year. Now I read it is helpful during radiation which I would have done had I known. Look up Rainer Clement or Colin Champ. I think the recommendation might be alternate day fasting during rads. Something else for you to experiment with.

    HappyHammer I'm not going to claim to be a weight loss expert but I had luck dropping 13 pounds by eliminating sugar and almost all grains. It sounds like you've already done that. I happen to eat quite a lot of nuts because I replaced my morning yogurt or oatmeal with nuts. That seemed to work for me. But I will also add that was pre-menopausal.

    PS Happyhammer maybe you should join us on the "let's post our daily exercise" thread. Fun ladies who will keep you motivated.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2016

    Yeah, fasting while working is hard.

    I'll look up those names and alternate day fasting. Thanks!

  • JohnSmith
    JohnSmith Member Posts: 651
    edited August 2016

    I know little about the "Fasting" topic, but this recent news seems appropriate for this thread.
    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-08-effective-fasting-tool-cancer.html
    "new study shows that the right diet in combo with chemo not only protect the body's immune system, it also turns it against cancer cells."

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited August 2016

    Thanks for sharing!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Hi, Not sure if anyone is contemplating the starvation diet with chemo, I read about it and want to try it. I plan to do 5 days of just water and black coffee, zero supplements and continue for 24 hours after my infusions. I did my first TC infusion on May 17, but I did not limit my food intake, however I have been on a very low carb diet for almost a year, so my body is used to less food. I also usually go 13 hours a day without food, normally. I had my last meal Thursday night a huge thick, rare cooked, Angus beef T-Bone steak and raw pecans. Chemo will be 10:30AM-6:00PM Wednesday, June 7th. I am cold capping with the dignicap. I will eat again on Thursday night. I am hoping for more benefit from the chemo as well as less side effects. Anyone else trying to starve their cancer cells?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    I didn't fast as long as 5 days during chemo last year. I was losing too much weight. The ideal timimg for me was 2 1/2 days before chemo started and 1 day after chemo ended (for AC). More details are in this post that's earlier in the thread. Now I do the intermittent fasting.

    https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/73/topics...

    Good luck!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Well I am on day 3 of my fast, I was hungry yesterday, but today I am not as focused on thoughts of food. I think I can do this.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    You can do it!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Thanks Serenity :) I made it through day 3. I sure hope my blood tests will be good, that is a worry for my since I did not tell my oncologist I was fasting. My WBC was 3.4 5 days after my last chemo and I had the neulesta injection, so I am hoping it will be good. Sure don't want to jeopardize my treatment. If anyone else did the 5 day fasting, did your blood counts go down from the fasting? Did it ever delay your chemo?

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Now day 5 hopefully my blood draw will be good enough for my chemo tomorrow. I am really worried. I will post what he says 2 more hours to my appointment.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    Hope your lab results were good.

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Thanks Serenity.

    Yes! Just got my results today, they are awesome! Everyone is amazed, I did not tell anyone here about the fasting, but all my levels are so good they are amazed at my resilience I will wait next treatment, then let them know what I did. I will continue the fast for each treatment, not sure about fasting during radiation. I read something about that, but it seems really weird, you have radiation every day, just don't see how. I will tell my MO about my fasting on June 27th my 3rd treatment after my blood draw results are in.

    Tomorrow I will have my chemo in the morning :) I will post about any side effects in the next few days. I am very hungry. I think I will have scrambled eggs as my first meal.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    Great news! Once I had chemo I wasn't hungry. That made it easier to wait 24 hours after chemo ended.

    During radiation I waited until after treatment to have my first meal. You could fast one day a week or try the fast-mimicking diet.

    Good luck tomorrow!

  • dmjmom
    dmjmom Member Posts: 79
    edited June 2017

    Carmstr835, Yes! I plan to fast my way through chemo. I actually don't know if I will need chemo, waiting on my Oncotype results. I haven't posted here before, but I was so excited to find this thread. Thanks to SerenitySTAT!! My MO thinks I will probably have a high Oncotype score, so I'm preparing myself for chemo. My cardiologist is a big believer in Intermittent Fasting and Nutritional Ketosis and I have been following his instructions since early February. I discussed using fasting as an unofficial adjunct treatment with my MO and she gave me the OK. My plan is to fast three days before and 24 hours after infusions (plan to plead with scheduler to have Thursday as my infusion day so I can eat on weekends). The rest of the time I'll stick to my regular intermittent fasting and keto diet. Thanks to those who have been posting their experiences with fasting.


  • MinusTwo
    MinusTwo Member Posts: 16,634
    edited June 2017

    Just be careful ladies. I did NOT fast, but had such virulent diarrhea that I lost 60 lbs through 6 infusions. Maybe I could have stood to loose 5 lbs at most, so I really looked like death warmed over. Also I had to have a bag of saline 1/2 way between each infusion because I was so dehydrated. So again, be careful!!

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    The idea behind fasting is to re-evaluate before every single infusion. I think it's awesome that your fast was successful. I found I was so nervous each time of infusion the fast was easy to do. The day before--500 cals. The next day (infusion) 500 cals and easy. The next few days were always the worst for me, so the day after chemo--easy to eat less than 500 cals.

    Fasting never delayed my chemo but during weekly Taxol infusion my WBC was low enough to delay chemo one week, even with the neupogen injection.

    I found that I didn't need to tell my docs everything about what I was doing. My MO was great but she isn't a nutritionist, and neither were the nurses. I did a lot of my own research during tx and believed in myself and that my own intellect was trustworthy when it came to fasting, exercise during chemo, etc.

    What is a fast-mimicking diet, btw, Serenity?

    Claire

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2017

    dmjmom - That was my fasting plan. You also have to be careful about your first meal. I really liked having the broth from pho, a Vietnamese soup. If you do need chemo, I recommend joining the chemo thread for people starting in the same month. It's helpful to read what others are going through in real time. But fasting updates are defiwelcome here.

    Minus - As Claire mentioned, I always went by how I felt before each infusion. I weighed myself every week and had in mind a weight I shouldn't go under. Fortunately that didn't happen. I never had diarrhea or vomiting. I didn't need to take the meds at home. Fasting isn't for everyone, but I found it helpful.

    Claire - I mentioned fasting to my MO, but not to the nurses. I didn't want them freaked out. :) FMD is a diet developed by Dr. Longo who has conducted research on fasting. I haven't tried it myself since it's easier for me to not eat. Heidihill posted the link in this thread. There are recipes in the article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/why-weve-all-been-doing-the-fast-diet-wrong/

  • dmjmom
    dmjmom Member Posts: 79
    edited June 2017

    Thank you Serenity! Yes, I will be very careful with the first meal after fasting. I did a 7-day water-only fast before my surgery (completed the fast 3 days before surgery). I ate too much, too quickly and ended up spending the afternoon in the bathroom. Will either make some bone broth or will get some pho. I will join the chemo thread when I find out if/when I need chemo. My surgery incisions haven't completely healed, so it will be at least two weeks before I can do either chemo or rads.

    Minus, I will be prepared to change my fasting schedule if it isn't going as planned. I can afford to lose 60 pounds, but would rather not do it the way you did.

    What about fasting while going through rads? I can't figure out a plan that makes sense to me.

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited June 2017

    Hi,

    I was so thrilled to see so much activity here. Thank you Serenity for the suggestions, and everyone else too! I did the water only with black coffee 5 days before, the day of and 24 hours after. I felt fine and even was able to exercise each day. After the infusion, my first day was awesome, I felt great, the 2nd day as well. I ate 2 scrambled eggs cooked in butter, a flax muffin (zero carbs), and 2 sausage patties. I might have over done it, I was very full, but it sure tasted good. Friday night,( that night) I got the diarrhea, it lasted till 10:30 Saturday morning and then I was very tired since I didn't sleep much. I did have to worry about bowel leakage, passing gas sometimes isn't just gas. I put on a pad and then wasn't so worried and was able to sleep better. Today, I didn't eat till 4PM and ate 2 rotisierre chicken legs they tasted good. Drinking lots of water, but I really don't want my coffee as much as I am used to. I drank 1/2 cup so far. Thanks for the ideas on the radiation, I start my simulation on the 18th of July, I think. If they can fit it in.

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