fasting

Anonymous

fasting

april1964

a friend of mine just sent this to me... can someone please explain it? thank you!

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-03/uoc--sof032916.php

LisaAlissa

The report of the study (this is a clickable link to your link) doesn't explain it, but observational study showed that those who had thirteen or more hours between their last evening food and first morning food were less likely to have a recurrence.

"Prolonging the overnight fasting interval may be a simple, non-pharmacological strategy for reducing a person's risk of breast cancer recurrence and even other cancers," said Catherine Marinac, lead author and doctoral candidate at UC San Diego Moores Cancer Center. "Previous research has focused on what to eat for cancer prevention, but when we eat may also matter because it appears to affect metabolic health."

The observation was that a less than 13 hour overnight fast was associated with a 36% higher risk of a recurrenence. They said more research is called for

Very interesting, April. Thanks for posting it!

LisaAlissa

Heidihill

When we eat seems to make a difference, in particular for breast cancer recurrence. This is good news as fasting nightly for 13 hours or more is not that hard, at least in my experience. I've been doing it on most days for many years now.

Hopeful82014

Thanks - that's a very interesting study and, as Heidihill pointed out, it's not a difficult objective. It's been my practice for a number of years, without even thinking about it. (It's good to know I've got another 'plus' on my side.)

Anonymous

An extended overnight fast is a type of intermittent fasting where the fast is at least 14 hours. This is about the minimum time required for autophagy to begin. Exercise will lessen the required time. Think of it as the body's garbage collector of damaged cells.

I haven't been doing it for a while because I've been putting too much cream and sugar in my coffee. Anything over 50 kcals will break a fast.

There's other research on fasting and cancer. Search for "Longo" on this site for some links.

Here's one:

https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/

Currently, I'm using fasting with chemo (the AC part) based on Dr. Longo's research. Before chemo started, I practiced fasting for a few days to make sure I could. I wouldn't recommend just doing it without preparation. That would be very uncomfortable.

After chemo, I plan on fasting for 3-5 days periodically where I only drink water/black coffee/tea.

Bounce

I eat a small breakfast at 7:30am. Does this mean that the last time I can eat the night before is to be finished by 18:30?

No way am I going to be able to go to bed between 22:00 and 23:00 without eating later than 18:30.

Not good news for me.

LisaAlissa

One of the things they mentioned in the story about the study was that people who had longer overnight fasts tended to also get more sleep. Which is apparently also a good thing. The article also said:

"Researchers also reported that fasting fewer hours per night was associated with significantly less sleep and higher levels of glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c), which is a measure of average blood sugar levels over a period of months. These findings are relevant to cancer prevention and control efforts because elevated HbA1c and poor sleeping habits have been linked to an increased risk of breast cancer. "

I went on a hiking vacation at a spa in B.C. some years ago where they served the final meal of the day at 5:30 or 6, then had everyone take a leisurely walk at 7. That walk seemed to kill the evening snack appetite. Just an idea.

Who knows?

LisaAlissa

Hopeful82014

I used to think the same thing, Bounce, especially since I tend to work out in the evening. What I actually found was that, despite my concerns, I never once starved to death overnight I not only got used to the regimen pretty quickly but I broke my late evening snack habit (which I'd NEVER thought I could do) and adapted very quickly. I was quite surprised by how readily it became second nature to me.

I do drink herbal tea in the evening and I think that helps. I don't add anything to it, so it doesn't break the fast.

For anyone who thinks this sounds impossible, I'd really encourage giving it an honest try; you may well surprise yourself. If you can't do it, then at least you know your tried, right?

besa

http://oncology.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?artic...

A link the the full text of the original article. (Hopefully it will work.)

Hopeful82014

Thanks, Besa!

ShazzaKelly

I found this interesting.as it is I've been forced into intermittent fasting for 3 days a week as I am on a trial for the oral form of paclitaxel. For the 3 days of each week that I take the chemo tablets I have to fast over night then not eat till 4 hours after taking the tablets. This is working out as a 13 hour fast for me. Perhaps I should extend it to the other days of the week. Although being Stage 4 I'm not sure how much it will help

Anonymous

ShazzaKelly - Interesting trial. I wish you well. Once I begin the weekly paclitaxel, I plan on doing something similar. Since the infusion is once a week, I will fast 1 day before and 8 hours after the infusion ends.

It can seem daunting to think of not eating for so long. When I started intermittent fasting, I would delay breakfast until I really felt hungry. Our bodies expect meals at certain times, so you have to train your body wait longer to eat. Drink water or tea instead. Promise you won't starve!

Heidihill

Shazzakelly, worth trying but maybe ask your doctor (also for you, Serenity) first as I don't know how fasting more than in the prescribed trial protocol would affect your blood counts. I was not on chemo when I started an intermittent fast.

I actually did 17 hours' fasting then including 1 hour of exercise before lunch. That lasted a year with breaks on school holidays. These days I usually work out at night after my last eating episode of the day.

new2bc

I tried this last night and fasted for 13 hours. Then started the morning with warm lemon water. I am wondering if we can drink water during these 13 hours.

Hopeful82014

New2bc - yes, definitely to water and other non-caloric liquids. You really don't want to get dehydrated, which could certainly result from not consuming water for 13+ hours. It's necessary, too, in order to wash down any late evening medications you may take.

ETA - my comment is based not on anything specific that I recall in the study but on the premise that liquids do not involve digestion and metabolic activity. In addition, the usual definition of fasting involves refraining from food rather than water, although some faith traditions approach it differently.

wallycat

This was something I naturally did even pre-cancer. So I guess observational "study" is the key.

I usually serve dinner at 5 and rarely eat anything afterward. I go brush my teeth and that typically encourages me not to eat any more after that :-)

Bounce

I am curious to know what any ladies who do manage a 13 hour overnight fast eat during the day.

Anyone feel like giving an example of their daily food intake - including times.

Thanks

Bounce

glennie19

Bounce, I generally follow a Paleo/Primal type of diet, but with modifications, cuz I do eat dairy and beans which are not on a true Paleo diet. My 13 hours is almost up,, I'm going to have 2 eggs scrambled with cheese, 2 Applegate Farm Chicken sausages and 4-5 prunes. Lunch (2pm) will probably be chicken thighs, a sweet potato, and stir-fry veggies (onion, red pepper, zucchini, kale, broccoli and whatever else I have in the refrig.) Dinner is harder for me. I work evenings, so I need something easy,,, so I might have leftovers, or a healthy microwave dinner, or a protein shake. No food after 8pm. (HARD when you work until midnight!) And I usually have a couple of squares of chocolate in the middle of the afternoon.

wallycat

My breakfasts are all over the map. When I was doing low-fat (oy, back in the dinosaur days), I ate constantly because I have reactive hypoglycemia. Literally, I ate every 2 hours. Dietetic school was a horrible brain wash and I bought into it. Not only did I get pre-diabetes in my mid 40s, I got breast cancer. No one can say it was cause/effect, but I bet anything there was something to it. I started low carb almost right after my pre-diabetes. I could not believe how much LESS I ate. No hypoglycemia = no hunger!! I'm slowly adding in cold potatoes, beans and some fruit (prunes for bone health and berries because they are yummy and powerful anitoxidant powerhouses).

I usually eat my breakfast 9am or later. I have my first cup of coffee when I get up and add unsweetened cocoa powder and some heavy cream or 1/2 & 1/2 (whatever is in the fridge)--around 8 or 8:30.

Breakfast can be anything for dinner leftovers, scrambled eggs with a veggie or yogurt/flax seed/prunes with some macadamia-nut oil drizzled in. That takes me to lunch between 11:30-12:30. Salad with lots of veggies or a leftover cooked veggie with a can of sardines or a wedge of cheese and some veggies. I can add cold potatoes or some beans to my salad or into my other meals. Sometimes I take a can of chicken broth and add a lot of veggies, then add an egg to fake-make-egg drop soup, "nachos" using pork rinds.....whatever you have and how hungry you are. If I am hungry between then and 5, I may snack on a small handful of nuts. Usually, I can wait till dinner.

I have a glass of wine with dinner and make a protein (fish, chicken, beef...??) and a lot of veggies. I offer two veggies, always, and sometimes one is starchy...beans or sweet potatoes. I eat till I am full (the longer you maintain minimum calories to feel full, your stomach adapts and you need less, which is great). That's it. I won't say I am never thinking about snacking and sometimes I am truly *HUNGRY* and will eat something, but 95% of the time, I'm OK. If I am thinking about food but not really hungry, I have a glass of water. I take my vitamins after dinner. Rarely, if fresh berries are in season and look good, I will serve a small bowl of berries with cream. Still, that leaves me with 13 hours.

glennie19

Wallycat: is there a reason for the potatoes to be cold? Less glycemic effect? I've avoided white potatoes for that reason.

wallycat

Glennie19, yes. When potatoes cool, they form resistant starch. Resistant starch is not absorbed but it does feed the gut flora. Since it is not absorbed, it doesn't affect blood sugar. You can reheat them and cool again for even more resistant starch, but I usually don't bother. Some say you can gently reheat them to about 125-130 degrees without degrading the retrograded/resistant starch, but I just eat them cold or room temperature. You can do the same thing with pasta...cook up (and make it al dente, which americans are not used to but is traditional in italy) and cool/refrigerate, then reheat the next day or so. Oatmeal, raw, has THE MOST resistant starch.

Anonymous

My diet is similar to those above. I avoid grains for the most part and try to eat nutrient dense foods. When intermittent fasting, I have my first meal between 11 and 1. Dinner around 6. Small snacks would be a handful of nuts, dark chocolate, or berries. This way of eating helped me lose weight a few years ago. I love bread, but eating it makes me break out in fat.

During chemo, I'm fasting around infusion days, so my eating now is based on when I feel up to eating. I lose weight on fasting days. When my appetite returns, I've added a smoothie made with milk kefir, almond milk, frozen berries, and protein powder to regain weight.

I also will eat cooked and cooled white potatoes and rice for the resistant starch.

wallycat

I just wanted to add that carbs do affect some more than others, so even with cold potatoes, there is some carb available, but it isn't as high as the GI shows it to be. Same for pasta and beans. And beans have been shown to have a "secondary effect" which means the next meal, even with more carbs, actually blunts some of the glucose spike.

Interestingly (though hard to do and demonstrate without medical intervention for the lay-person), fat lost around the pancreas (which is why the bariatric surgeries seem to put type 2 diabetes into remission, allows the pancreas to work and many pre or full diabetic (type 2) can have normal response. Overall weight loss contributes to that but I wish there were a way of **seeing** the loss and knowing that you're not just losing weight without affecting the fat around your organs. In theory, weight loss is occurring everywhere...still....we know the *should* vs *is* and I'm just sharing all the crap I read and research through journals.

Anonymous

Keeping track of your waist measurement would be a good way to track your visceral fat loss. I did one of those Beachbody videos. I had the greatest percentage loss around my belly than any other part.

You might find this article interesting. Once you make real diet or exercise changes, you should expect to lose both types of fat.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1258185/The-toxic-fat-strangle-organs-shed-it.html

wallycat

Yes, **should** is the issue. ;-)

Anonymous

Well, may I change my sentence from "should expect to" to "will"?

The article states:

Why does visceral fat disappear so quickly? It is because it's intended to be stored as energy, 'rather like a squirrel hiding nuts'. says Dr Haslam.

'So when the body reduces calorie intake and increases calorie output, this fat begins to be digested. Over several weeks, it appears that any type of weight-loss regime will have a significant impact on visceral fat - apart from liposuction.'

Let's bring this back to the original topic. An extended overnight fast is a form of calorie restriction. During this time, visceral fat begins to be digested. Reducing this type of fat reduces the risk of recurrence.

I lost weight by combining a Primal diet, exercise, and intermittent fasting. I know I lost significant visceral fat. I dropped 1 size in tops, but 3 sizes in bottoms.

wallycat

Serenity, I get what you're saying. I know it is probably just my head-set because I have fallen out of the bell-shaped-curve on almost every study....so for me, personally, I digest a lot of information with caution these days.

I agree that "in theory" it looks like calorie restriction, but I don't believe the original study indicated less calories were required. For those struggling with quantity of food...some people eat bigger meals (so calorie wise, they may be ingesting as much or maybe more), but something about allowing the body to rest from food intake for 13 hours (per this study) is what seems to be the key.

I know each of us will have different outcomes and comfort level with "diets."

Anonymous

Definitely agree about using caution when reading studies. After reading studies that find eating meat or being vegetarian may increase your risk of cancer, I'm waiting for the one that says breathing air increases your risk of cancer!

I'm new to breast cancer, but I have spent the past few years finding a sustainable way to lose weight. So, the link in the original post immediately made me think of intermittent fasting, autophagy, and visceral fat. While I still got cancer after losing significant visceral fat, there are other factors involved that triggered cancer.

Before I practiced intermittent fasting, I tried reducing overall calories, but I was always hungry. Intermittent fasting is still a form of calorie restriction, but it doesn't necessarily mean overall calorie reduction. I'm not surprised that reduced calories was not mentioned.

Having said that, for me, an extended overnight fast may not be sufficient to prevent recurrence. Instead, I plan on periodic 3-5 day fasts with the idea that my body will be in autophagy for a longer period. This is the fast Dr. Longo recommends for cancer patients.

TwoHobbies

Wow, this is good news because it is fairly easy. I'm already doing this post recurrence. Too bad I didn't try it after diagnosis.

Bounce, the key to me with intermittent fasting has been three things: practice - I think your body learns to recruit that fat; eating better foods - I'm Paleo too, but specifically I think its more fat for me; and the simplest part, just take my breakfast to work. I used to eat at 6 am because I leave for work immediately after. I now drink my cups of black coffee in the morning and I take nuts and a little dried fruit to eat when I get hungry, which can be anywhere from 9:30 to 11. Lunch is a lot of salads with chicken, a burger with just lettuce leaves, tomato and pickles, or tuna and raw veggies. I keep olives at work. If I eat my lunch and still feel hungry I find 5 or 6 olives does the trick. Dinner is shrimp, chicken, fish, steak, whatever protein and lots of roasted veggies in olive oil, or steamed veggies with butter or salad with olive oil. "Dessert" is usually some fresh fruit. Similar to lunch, if I've eaten my dinner and still feel hungry, I'll add a healthy fat. I'll eat guacamole with raw carrots or celery or almond butter off the spoon.

Wallycat, I was also brainwashed. My father died of a heart attack in the 70s so I believed you had to eat low fat, lots of grains, no butter. I also became hypoglycemic and of course, got BC.

Serenity, I've done some fasts periodically, but I dread starting it. Maybe we can buddy up and do a fast sometime.

Anonymous

TwoHobbies - Certainly! You may want to wait since my next chemo is April 11th about noon. My last meal will be this Friday morning.

I find having the last meal in the evening is easier, but right now, chemo timing is more pressing.

What is your longest fast so far