My Hypothesis About Sudden Unexplained Weight Gain in Cancer
Comments
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Under construction won't be done for awhile
Okay mind returned rested and refreshed.. The link to the gut and obesity
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/10/2277.full
Mechanisms linking gut microbiota to obesity, IR, and type 2 diabetes
Kayb, tthis section is difficult to follow (for me). Will attempt to reduce it. may have significant revision. This is the crux of your interest as it addresses the Insulin Resistance. Pay no attention until I say it's done.
"Beside an increased energy harvest from the diet, further mechanisms linking gut microbiota to obesity have been subsequently proposed, including chronic low-grade endotoxinemia, regulation of tissutal biologically active fatty acid composition and modulation of gut-derived peptide secretion."
I have included a definition of Endotoxemia b/c it has been extensively identified as causing the cascade of changes in metabolism by initiating an immune response. General Definition: The presence of endotoxins in the blood, which, if derived from gram-negative rod-shaped bacteria. Now how it applies to the research. Low levels of the gram negative endotoxins have been identified in the studies. These levels don't cause overt illness, but begin the chain of events that lead to negative occurences in the body.
Simpler thought :Gut bacteria can initiate the inflammatory response by a change to a high fat diet>>>>high fat diet can lead to changes in the lining of the intestinal tract which causes it to be more permeable>>>> leads to increase endotoxiema>>>>which causes changes within the liver>>>>> which lead to Insulin Resistance and poor glucose metabolism.>>>can be reversed.
Another diet that can cause changes is high fructose "Mice consuming high-fructose solution for 8 weeks showed a 27-fold increase in portal endotoxin levels, coupled with a significant increase in plasma inflammatory cytokines, hepatic steatosis, and IR, compared with water controls.
http://fitnessprohealth.com/high-fructose-fruit/
Other modulators of gut microbiota composition
The first years of life have an impact on later adult obesity. "In a prospective study (35), children becoming overweight by 7 years of age had lower levels of Bifidobacteria and higher levels of Staphylococcus aureus during the 1st year of life than infants maintaining a healthy weight. Another study (17) found that the response of overweight adolescents to a diet and exercise weight-loss program was dependent on the initial microbiota prior to the treatment." "Another study (17) found that the response of overweight adolescents to a diet and exercise weight-loss program was dependent on the initial microbiota prior to the treatment"
" KOALA (Kind, Ouders en gezondheid: Aandacht voor Leefstijl en Aanleg) Birth Cohort and other studies have suggested the mode of delivery, type of infant feeding, hospitalization, prematurity, and antibiotic use determine the gut microbial composition during infancy (38–40). During a natural birth, infants are rapidly colonized by microbes from the mother's birth canal and feces, while babies delivered by cesarean section are colonized by environmental microbes from their mother, the air, and transferred by the nursing staff. As a result, infants delivered by cesarean section have fewer intestinal Bifidobacteria and Bacteroides spp. (two species shown to be protective against obesity) and are more often colonized by C. difficile in comparison with vaginally delivered infants.
"Formula-fed infants are more often colonized with Enterobacteriaceae spp., C. difficile, Bacteroides spp., and Streptococcus spp. compared with breast-fed infants who are predominantly colonized by Staphylococcus spp., Streptococcus spp., Lacobacilllus spp., and Bifidobacterium spp. Whether different gut microbe colonization explains the different propensity for obesity from different infant feeding requires further studies with careful prospective monitoring of gut flora and lifestyle habits.
"The pervasive impact of antibiotic use on gut microbes is also increasingly recognized, e.g., a 5-day course of oral antibiotics modifies human gut microbiota for up to 4 weeks before it tends to revert to its original composition, and some communities fail to recover within 6 months (41). Consistently, the use of antibiotics in infants is associated with the decreased number of the antiobesogenic Bifidobacteria and Bacteroides, and after antibiotic treatment there is a slow regrowth of Bifidobacteria, whereas Bacteroides spp. are not usually reestablished (38). "
Hmmmmmm.
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With the above post, I think I pulled out the major things from what I've read. When it came to the stuff related to microbiota in infants children , and adolescents, it was best to just leave it intact.
In reading the material today. It was interesting where the early limited science and understanding of gut bacteria is now being confirmed by more indepth analysis of the chemistry and the affect on structures. One example is how the bacterial changes in the gut affect the intestinal lining. Not sure how many years ago--guessing almost two decades, info started to appear related to leaky gut syndrome. It was considered early on to be fringe science. What I read hear is it is being validated.
I avoided pulling the particular good bacteria that can balance the gut until the end. I want to see what the conclusion says.
When you read the info related to kids--infant to teen and antibiotic use, you may react that there is no hope that we can turn things around. Well things aren't all known , but enough we can work on it safely.
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Reserved
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Reserved
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I'd like to see links to actual studies validating "leaky gut" syndrome. I've found zero, personally.
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Well SummerAngel. That's why I referred to as fringe science from about 20 years ago. But in this study that compiles lot's of previous studies, it is referencing the structural changes. I'll bring the exact wording from the study.
"The knowledge of the impact of different nutrients on microbial LPS production or on intestinal LPS absorption could have relevant therapeutic implications. The finding that high-fat feeding reduced the expression of epithelial tight junction proteins occludin and ZO-1, leading to increased intestinal permeability and LPS levels, suggests intestinal fat absorption and secretion may have a predominant role in LPS entry into the portal blood (47)."
Pretty, cool.
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That would be interesting to see. I have had issues with digestion (I have eosinophilic esophagitis but no other issues have been found) and would it would be great to pin down an exact cause of my issues. (Not related to weight gain, but still...)
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Summer, remind me when we finish this one, we can see what we can find. Look back at the previous post for the exact quote.
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Summer I threw Leaky Gut Syndrome into google. Lots of info. I suggest starting with Wiki. When I started reading about it 20 years ago, it was considered alternative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome
What was fun about today's reading. There is a whole section that is way technical. I felt like I was drowning. After the umpteenth reading through the same section it finally sunk in and I had an AH_HAH moment.
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YOOOOHOOOOoo AMY. The list of questions for a weight history just got majorly longer. "Other modulators of gut microbiota composition"-----talking about kids and the studies.
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Yep, wikipedia says basically what I've found while looking for valid studies on the subject - it's considered "quack science" to most and classified as "alternative science". Hopefully some good studies will be done eventually.
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Yeah they are done LOL. Lot's it's just not using the same words. Leaky gut is described as a lack of integrity of the intestinal/colon wall, that allows things from the intestine/colon into the body. That's a rough definition without going and getting a better one.
This study brings together the current info related to endotoxemia, microbiota, and Insulin resistance and impaired glucose metabolism
"leading to increased intestinal permeability and LPS levels, suggests intestinal fat absorption and secretion may have a predominant role in LPS entry into the portal blood (47)."
Increased intestinal permeability means ---it leaks. A membrane is only supposed to allow certain things to cross. By saying there is increased cell permeability , it's saying more things are crossing. It leaks.
"suggests intestinal fat absorption and secretion may have a predominant role in LPS entry into the portal blood (47)."-----translation LPS is liposacchride which is a component in the cell membrane of the gram negative bacteria in the distal small intestine and colon. B/c there is increased permeability in the intestinal wall the LPS crosses over into the portal circulation. The portal circulation connects the intestines to the liver. The LPS creates the endotoxiemic situation that changes some structures in the liver that lead to Insulin Resistance(IR) and impaired glucose metabolism. IR and impaired glucose metabolism lead to obesity.
Leaky gut with malfunction
Good, I put it in my own words. Tell me what you think since you read the Wiki leaky gut info.
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Well, if that's the case then I definitely don't have leaky gut! I think that the difference is that "Leaky Gut Syndrome", as you find on the web, is blamed for all sorts of maladies, which is absolutely NOT study-proven (from what I could find). If a true leak as you describe it is what's noted in the study you quoted, and that leak causes weight gain, that rules me out.
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Not quite, the endotoxins have been associated with "other problems". This study was looking at weight and IR. The other two studies that this study cited for the material related to endotoxins I haven't read. They are in the Bibliography. You could hyperlink and read. Or wait till we get done with this one and I will look at them. # 47. Click on that little 47 in my last post.
Remember that term isn't used in this study. But the definitions I wrote above are what's important. Like the duck thing...if it talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck.
Cell permeability is cell permeability
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LOL you used Quack science. Well it's quacking.
Checked the bib list. 29,30,31,32,47 Have fun.-joking.Eventually we can work on these. I just hope they aren't as difficult to read.
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Good Monday Morning. Thought about where to go now. Science has established that the gut microbiota can alter not just the internal bacterial activity of the intestinal tract, but by affecting the wall of the intestine/colon the LPS and other things can circulate in the blood. When those things circulate they can affect distant structures. That can change the function of distant structures or cause disease.
We could go along for a very long time learning the details of this. The question is how would that change anything? The major question of Insulin Resistance and impaired glucose metabolism which lead to weight gain. has been answered. I'm going to move on to what we can do about it.
Mind went on a walk-about again BBL
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OMG - this is me! I gained 30-40 pounds in the 2 years before diagnosis. My diet did not change that much. BUT this was a period when I turned 50 (is it age? I wondered), and I moved from Philadelphia to Miami (is it stress and other things related to a big change in life so I am not paying as much attention as I think to what I am eating?). I have always - all my life - gotten regular exercise. I was very busy with a new job post-move, and had put off a visit to a doctor in my new city to figure out why I gained so much weight. Then I saw the lump and was diagnosed with breast cancer. I told the oncologist about my weight gain, but he did not say anything (he is a man of few words, however).
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Scrunchie, everything you thought I was thinking with both cancers. What I learned decades ago about docs. If their eyes are blank or they're is no reaction, they haven't a clue or aren't listening. Either about myself or a patient. I'd snap them out of it and get what I wanted. Totally loved a doc that would say "That's interesting, tell me more." When needed those docs became my docs. Your post is important. This question will not be solved for awhile. The more that add their stories, it will get someone's attention to study it.
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I had a quick weight gain of 35 pounds before my Stage 3 breast cancer diagnosis -- but I've always gone up and down in my weight so I didn't think too much of it. But my sister had a 35 pound weight gain for no apparent reason, diet did not change much, she was always around the same weight, and then she was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer.
I had other symptoms before diagnosis looking back as well. My body was in great distress. Makes sense to me that weight gain could occur in some people as your body is not working as efficiently trying to fight cancer. I have no other theories than that, but surely I think it can happen to some - not all.
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Hi Denise, glad you finally joined us. The discussion has incorporated allot of other material. Weight related. How you enjoy the reading.
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Been away from this topic for a long time. A question came up on the constipation thread. The question is related to stewed prunes, raisin, and apricots used as a constipation reliever. The basic question is related to sugars. The link is to a list that ranks fructose in fruits.
http://fitnessprohealth.com/high-fructose-fruit/
The following is from above article: "Fruits with higher than 4 grams of fructose are considered high. Common high fructose fruits include all dried fruits(emphasis mine), grapes, apples, pears, cherries, pomegranate, kiwi and blackberries. Consume fresh, low-fructose whole fruit in moderation. Low fructose fruits include: strawberries, bananas, cantaloupe, pineapple, peaches, grapefruit, limes and lemons, avocados and tomatoes, apricots, mangos, and plums."
From the study described in a previous post "Mechanisms linking gut microbiota to obesity, IR, and type 2 diabetes" "Mice consuming high-fructose solution for 8 weeks showed a 27-fold increase in portal endotoxin levels, coupled with a significant increase in plasma inflammatory cytokines, hepatic steatosis, and IR, compared with water controls." Dried fruits would appear to negatively influence overall gut health, but the amount used is small. When put in light of the problem of constipation severe enough to require daily use of a remedy, one could choose the natural remedy or use an osmotic laxative.
YAY, Found an answer first try. Considering it's 5:30 am, that's very nice. The following was copied and pasted from this link. Our constipation remedy is high in sorbitol which is produced in a reduction of glucose.
http://patient.info/health/constipation-in-adults-leaflet
Sorbitol
Sorbitol is a naturally occurring sugar. It is not digested very well and draws water into the gut, which has an effect of softening the stools. In effect, it acts like a natural osmotic laxative (osmotic laxatives are explained later). So, you may wish to include some foods that contain sorbitol in your diet. Fruits (and their juices) that have a high sorbitol content include apples, apricots, gooseberries, grapes (and raisins), peaches, pears, plums, prunes, raspberries and strawberries. The concentration of sorbitol is about 5-10 times higher in dried fruit.
Osmotic laxatives
These work by retaining fluid in the large bowel by osmosis (so less fluid is absorbed into the bloodstream from the large bowel). There are two types - lactulose and a group called macrogols (also called polyethylene glycols). Miralax is a polyethylene glycol.
Conclusion:
Sorbitol is a naturally occurring, but it is also a manmade sweetner. The question under discussion is in re: to prunes, raisins, and apricots in which sorbitol is a naturally occurring sugar alcohol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbitol . Manmade sorbitol is an entirely independent study from our remedy.
Use the minimum amount to accomplish the goal of a movement. Use with caution in diabetics because of affect on blood glucose. For those that have irritable bowel syndrome, it may aggravate their condition.
Further study would be needed to determined affect on gut microbiota and dysbiosis. (gut bacteria and imbalance of gut bacteria)
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I combined two posts in editing.
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I have read that women with BC gained 10 or more pounds in adulthood. I fit that category because I was never able to lose my pregnancy weight, but it wasn't within 2 years of diagnosis, and I've never had unexplained weight gain or weight loss, in my mind.
The microbiome is fascinating, but we are in such an infancy in its study. I have seen studies where the microbiome within the breast tissue of BC patients was different, as well as in the digestive tract. I have also seen the same mouse study you posted about overweight mice. Its all very complex. I am trying to follow a more ancestral health approach (paleo) after I read that cancer is unknown in various primitive peoples until they are exposed to western diet. They have studied modern primitive people and they find their microbiome is totally different than ours. Of course there are other factors that are different besides diet too.
If you are interested in the microbiome, I thought I would pass along an interesting site:http://humanfoodproject.com/#. He is truly out in the wild studying the microbiome and its fascinating. I wish he would post more often.
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Hi, Two Hobbies welcome here
I chose two years as I described it the first few posts as an arbitrary time. Early after starting this thread I came across the study of an indigenous(sic) people in Venezula. Scientist went in and cultured everything. The links are on page 1. Your link says that your fav guy is into anthropology. He probably has that study on his site too. The found that the biome of the tribal forest folks was so massive it will take along time to classify it all. Way beyond us civilized folks with all our drugs.
If you start from the beginning there is an evolution of learning with all the links included. The microbiome of the tissues are very interesting for sure. My conclusion when I dropped off for a different science thing was that the Paleo diet was the go to diet. Mediteranean and Japanese likely too, but I didn't get to comparing what the study said. Plus, it's not just mouse studies. It's humans too. We have biomes throughout the body
It was clear though that protection of our biome is key to health. If you choose to look at all the studies, I think you will have some no chit moments as I did. If you do, please post
I've been into good bacteria since the 70's. But I now can see that I needed to be much more aggressive at protecting my biome. I thought I was aggressive, but not near enough. Too much doctoring. My DBF's rarely doctored. We've been together for 3 years. Never ceases to amaze me when he cut's himself. Deep cuts that need stitches and awful slices on hands and forearms. He wraps duct tape on them and keeps working in conditions that are full of dirt and bacteria. He's a heating ventilating air-conditioner guy. We had a rule that depending what the environment was like, he had to strip in the garage and put his clothes right into the wash with bleach or into the trash. In 3 years not one of his wounds has become infected or even red. His biome is strong LOL.
Totally, would love to have you dive into the studies from the beginning. sassy
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Two hobbies, the biome is an off shoot of the original topic. I was just enjoying myself learning while waiting for folks to come along
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cp418 started this thread on the meat issue fiasco initiated by the WHO . ChiSandy and Downdog had two really good posts.
https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/73/topics/836119?page=1#post_4537243
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Sass, I think you may have it backwards. I don't think weight gain is the body's way of protecting itself from cancer, I think it is a REFLECTION of the metabolic dysfunction that is leading to cancer. There is an increased risk of breast cancer with obesity. Maybe the sames factors are driving both. I think it comes back to inflammation and immunity. Your sidetrack on the microbiome seems right on the money. The paper that really resonated with me a few years ago was called, "Evolving Concepts: How Diet and the Intestinal Microbiome Act as Modulators of Breast Malignancy". (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC380067...) They did a great job of showing how diet (and antibiotic use, and probably endocrine disruptors) affect the bacterial composition of the gut and how that in turn affects what immune cells are present. And what immune cells are present and in what numbers can affect cancer survival (and probably getting it in the first place).
"An intestinal microbiome that destroys lymphocytes may influence the outcomes of cancer. Patients with a lower number of systemic lymphocytes at diagnosis appear to have poorer cancer-related outcomes. Studies show that the ratio of neutrophils to lymphocytes (calculated as neutrophil count divided by lymphocyte count) at diagnosis predicts long-term cancer outcome, with higher ratios predicting worse outcomes independently of patients' age or stage at diagnosis [106–109].
In a study of early stage breast cancer (stages I, II, and III) a neutrophil-to-lymphocyte ratio of more than 2.5 was associated with 4-fold risk of disease relapse at 10 years compared to patients with a ratio lower than 2.5 regardless of stage or age at diagnosis (P < 0.001) [110]. A retrospective study of 316 breast cancer patients showed that a neutrophil-to-lymphocyte ratio of more than 3.3 at diagnosis had a 44% higher risk of death within 5 years of cancer diagnosis compared to those with a ratio less than 1.8 (P < 0.0001) [111]."
Here's a study talking about antibiotic use and how it nearly wipes out gut bacteria and may contribute to other diseases:(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC448962...) Doesn't mention cancer, but it does mention weight gain.
Also, I recently read an article on obesogens, which are chemicals (endocrine disruptors) that may be causing hormonal changes leading to obesity. Endocrine disruptors are implicated in causing breast cancer, too. (http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellne... )
I think a combination of factors are at work in BC.
Sorry if I've gone on the wrong tangent, I just skimmed the thread! But I think the gut microbiome is fascinating!
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Falls, Hello dear friend, brain went on a walk-about. When it returns, I will look at your studies:)
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Interesting new research about weight
Article about the study:
The study abstract:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2668214
The following article was from Health Affairs. Not clear who owns Health Affairs, but it's published through the Standford University press. Tracked it. Health News is under Project Hope a 501c3 non-profit charitable organization. Project Hope has a 4 star rating from Charity Navigator.
"Description(from web site)
Health Affairs is the leading journal of health policy thought and research. The peer-reviewed journal was founded in 1981 under the aegis of Project HOPE, a nonprofit international health education organization. Health Affairs explores health policy issues of current concern in domestic and international spheres. Its mission is to serve as a high-level, nonpartisan forum to promote analysis and discussion on improving health and health care, and to address such issues as cost, quality, and access."
https://www.duke-nus.edu.sg/news/study-identifies-childhood-obesity-causing-foodsFried foods, particularly, French fries taking a major hit in the press this week.
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I eat fried foods very infrequently but am really good at putting on large amounts of weight quickly simply by obereating, much of it high carb & fat foods
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